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Abortion according to the ramba is a murder without a punishment just like killing a trepha. Remember that there was the famous machlokes with the node biyuhda over if killing a trepha is yehorag veaal yavoer, and we pasken that it is yehorag veeal yaavor.
Based on this Menachem Ziemba paskened that when a Nazi ordered a Jewish Doctor to preform an abortion or he will be shot, that he was michuyav to give up his life because the Nazi was the rodef not the baby, and abortion is yehorag veaal yavoer. (this had nothing to do with shaas hashmad)
I’m totally confused by this conversation.
There are numerous maar mikomos that explicitly say that sometimes (these are exceptions, not the rule) punishments are not necessarily a barometer of the crime. Rishonim explicitly say this regarding naara meurasa versus a regular ashes ish (while others argue). rape will also always be classified as a gezel, Thus it was included according to the rambam in the sheva mitzvos.
in regards to intermarriage to nidah, rav sadyah goan as quoted by the iben ezra says on lo sinaf says there are different levels of sexual avaras the lowest level is being with a unmarried woman, worse than that is to be with your wife when she is a niddah, worse than that is eshes ish, worse than that is to be with a non jew, worse than that is homosexuality, worse than that is bestiality.
We must also never take an agada statement to lessen halacha though, which seem to be what this fight is possibly about
Just like separating halacha from agada is antithetical to Judaism (see marahsha hakdama for small point on this), We must always remember that the birth of Christianity was taking agadah without halacha.
If they make Torah the ikkur and money tafel, then the left will never agree to sit with them.
If they left sells us a rainbow for housing money, the left will allow us to join them.
Remember the price the left will demand is throwing away the torah.
1. Those on the left are too smart to say outright they have a problem with Judaism. But they will do actions against everything Jewish. I’m not stupid enough to believe the lies of my enemies, I look at their actions.
2. Greece also allowed infanticide (I would not make them a barometer), question do you think that homosexuality is a chok?
3. Today’s left hates Judaism at least as much as any other enemy of klal yisroel’s history, why would I go against the torah, to help my enemies, go against me more. The biggest supporter of banning milah is the LGBT community, why should I support them in anything, even if it was neutral, kal vechoer if it is the anethma of the torah!
4. Since Same Sex “marriage” passed there have been much more LGBT being passed per year, in all states. The more you give them the more they want. Chazal teach that someone who has one manah wants two, so two the more the lgbt get the more they demand. And each new demand is harder to fight. The only way to protect Jewish freedom of religion is to fight those fighting us not giving them what they want.PS Richard Gottfried YMS is more important to turning his agenda in to national policy, than any politician on the national stage.
In ’16 Proposition F allowing 16 years olds to vote in San Francisco got
172,744 votes
47.9% of the voteIt might not be mainstream of the left, but either was same sex “marriage” in ’05.
The hard of left and the real powers of influence all support 16 year old voting, and this is clear to anyone with a brain as a future mainstream position of the left.
er
the biggest threat to Jewish religious liberty is the left.The only group that wants to ban basic jewish practices in America is the left.
The intactivists (ban bris milah, not banning mbp, but milah iteself) is an offshoot of the lgbt movement.“Advocates have had their hands full with numerous, pressing issues in the last five years,” including marriage equality and employment discrimination, says Anthony Michael Kreis, a constitutional law scholar at the Chicago-Kent College of Law. “Circumcision regulation has not been one of them.” ”
but now they have more time on their hands thanks to attitudes like his, they are on to the next agenda banning Judaism.
Building up our enemies is stupid, even if they were not pushing things against the torah, kal vechomer when they are!
I can and do say
Those should be laws because as a society we are better off if we all don’t practice homosexuality and adultery. .that is why homosexuality should be illegal and punished not because Judaism or lehavdil any religion says so.homosexuality and adultery are not chukim and have been forbidden by many societies for years, not just on religious grounds!
CTLAWYER
There are multiple moves to lower the age to 16 or 17, from the left.For example in NY state there is a bill to lower the age to 17 (sponsored by Borough Park/Kensington Assemblyman Carroll)
A02800/S02272other Assemblymembers supporting it
Niou, D’Urso, Ortiz, Colton, Pheffer Amato, Bichotte, Seawright, Gottfried, Hyndman, Richardson, Mosley, De La Rosa, Rivera, Dinowitz, Walker, Jaffee, Miller MG, Simon, Peoples-Stokes, Barron, Hevesi, Pichardo, Thiele, Blake, Rodriguez, EpsteinThe reason is they want to raise the age for personal responsibility, while also lowering the age of communal responsibility.
homosexuality is considered by every single rishon who discusses what is a mitzva sichliyus, to be a mitzva sichliyus.
Even those rishonim who consider arayus to be a chok, consider homosexuality to be a mitzva sichlyus.
refoelzeev
under your definition there has never been a mumer lihachis
zimri wanted kosbi, korach wanted the kehuna, dasan ve aviram wanted leadership.the egel was fun they had dancing just like a pride parade, and remember there was a a yeter harah for avodah zarah then.
If I march in the jewish pork eaters parade, and went to the pork eating temple would you say I’m a mumer litayavon also?
How about if i reinterpreted the torah to make eating pork a mitzva?I repeat according to your interpretation there has never been a mumer lihachis in the history of the world.
refoelzeev
“Yes, everyone can rationalize what they’re doing. You’re proving my point that your statement that they’re lehachis is presumptuous”if attending a homosexual “shull” is not lihaches
than we should add a mumer lihaches to the list of things in sanhedrin that are lo haya vi lo yiheye.Takes2-2tango
here are 3 basic reasons
1. I doubt most shul give aliyas to KNOWN rapists, when it happened it’s usually because the shul thinks or at least pretends they are innocent, here no one questions that they are guilty
2. when the rapist is asked “what are you?” do they identify themselves by their sin.
3. please show me the rapists shul? I would like to take a picture of everyone in the shul so I can know who is evil. Torah jews don’t devote shuls to avaras.Ps if you can’t find the rapist or ganev shul (that advertises under that name) when you got to beth simcha “tora (ox)” please take a picture and post it publicly so everyone can know if there are any other toavanicks disguising themselves as Orthodox Jews
Edited
Takes2-2tango, akuperma, It is Time for Truth, refoelzeev
1. please tell me the shul that gives honor to rapists, thieves without at least pretending they believe they are innocent.
2. please tell me the shul that gives honor to rapists, thieves UNDER THE BANNER of being rapists, thieves.
3. by definition anyone who identifies their basic Identity as a sin is lehachis. (identifying oneself as part of they gay community is lehachis)
4. a shul that calls itself the thieves shul, is assur. In Europe they had shuls for different professions. Would it have been muter to set up the thieves shul for kiruv??????????????????????
5. akuperma, In our shuls provided they were litayavon, however here moskowitz is setting up shop in a GAY temple, that is called the gay temple, thus it is clearly lihachis ulimihachis.adocs
he openly states his position, there is no mitzvah to dan a rasha likav zchus. in fact the opposite is true.
he is there only to give them a haskama.
rav ahron soloveichik paskened that Orthodox Yeshivas could not march in the Israeli Day Parade as long as this temple marched under the banner of a Gay “synagogue”. I can imagine how much he would scream against this evil!
“Why is it any worse then giving an aliya to a known molester and known ganef or known tapist?”
do we have a ganavs “shul” or the rapists shul?
“People who are cruel to animals are many times cruel to other human beings as well”
societies who are murderous are usually protective of animals.
The most progressive country for animal rights in the 30’s was Nazi Germany.
The leading sponsor of a assisted suicide bill in the NY assembly is also arguably also the biggest animal rights support in the NY state assembly (Linda Rosenthal)
the leading pro abortion on demand crusader in the NY assembly, is the other person who is also arguably the biggest animal rights support in the NY state assembly (Deborah Glick)Avi K
1. we don’t nesserely pasken like the rambam for hilchos ben noach, the Rambam doesn’t include cannibalism but many achronim say it’s asur for a ben noach, as implied by a few chazals
2. Even the Rambam would assur lesbian “marriages” this is implist in the rambam’s understanding of marriage, which is one of the reasons the rambam felt the need to include in a halacha sefer the halacha before matan Torah on marriage despite it’s apparent irrelevance today. I would use the rambams in the beginning of hilchus ishus to assur it according to the rambam
3. the chazal quoted by the rambam in isurai biah makes it very clear that lesbiainsim is wrong for goyim. somethings that are not assur to a ben noach could sometimes be worse. The Torah mocks Lot even though al pi halacha the rambam paskens he did nothing wrong. We see that God even matured an issur for kayin in order to avoid a worse action by adam. The radak writes on ohr lagoyim that it’s to get the goyim to keep the 7 mitzvos and follow a derech yashar, there is no way that one can ever say that lesbianism much less marriage is a derech yashar!
homosexual behavior is very dangerous!
same sex “marriage” legitimizes it and going to guarantee that more people will engage in said behavior.
Even liberals will admit to this if the question is posed properly.
they have in their lexicon something that they abbreviate as a “B” in their letter their known abbreviation that starts with a “L” and sometimes ends with a “T”
Liberals don’t like to focus on that part because if people would they lose their sympathy factor they need to push in order to win over the hearts and minds of the ignorant masses
Suppose a “B” likes both men and women equally, but wants to be married. If same sex “marriage” is not allowed then that same man will marry a woman, but if we allow same sex “marriage” that person will be 50% likely to “marry” a man. So same sex “marriage” will guarantee that homosexual relations will occur.
According to to the CDC In 2013, 75% of the reported P&S syphilis cases were among male gays
According to to the CDC in 2010 78 percent of new HIV infections in men were among gays (and not due to drugs)
same sex “marriage” is literally bad for the health of the country!
R’ Aharon Kotler
died in 1962 I strongly doubt he ever paskend that you can vote for a pro homosexual candidate
R’ Yaakov Kamenetzky told someone that it’s better to vote for an antisemite than to vote for a pro homosexual candidate
R’ Moshe Feinstein wrote that all Jews should go down to city hall and fight the Koch gay rights bill so it will be known to all the nations that the people of god hate abomination!
edited
“DH: Your whole Shtickel is against a Yerushalmi. And there are lots of different reasons Bayis Rishon was destroyed. Some include Arayos. But it wasn’t an Ikkur.”
1. we pasken like the bavli over the yerushalmi in general and specifically in this case
2. it’s a machlokes in the yerushalmi and I have a strong doubt that you can explain all the questions on that Yerushalmi (both shitas)? (I’ve never seen such strong lashon by a mifurash on a Yirushalmi as there is by one the main meforshim over there) because of the fact that this yerushalmi has more questions I’m going to follow all the rishonim and ignore it, until an adequate explain is given. In short this yerushalmi contridicts all other pisukim, and chazals, leaving me to to assume it’s not to be taken literally
2 non Jewish women in lesbian relationship is frowned upon by the torah in the strongest terms, we learn out the prohibition of lesbianism from the disgusting ways of Egypt, furthermore the medrish says lesbian “marriages” were one of the cause of the mabul.
So even if it were not technically forbidden it’s still clear from the Torah it’s evil! In fact by the 7 mitvos there is much room to say that some actions that are not included are even worse than those that are. We know this from the fact that god gave a special dispensation for Kayin to marry his sister even though the world could have been populated through adam and his daughter that would according to the the tanaim we pasken like not have violated any halachas,but would have been worse haskaficly, so god gave a special suspension of the issur of a sister for kayan, so adam would not have married his daughter who was mitur al pi halacha to him
“Joseph, it should be further clarified that gentile women in the news.are not over on anything”
vayikra rabbah includes lesbian “marriages” as the cause of the mabul
Torah613Torah
This will effect us, according to halacha the rabbanim of America should have been gozer a fast day!
but they didn’t even have to do it, HKB did one better, he was gozer 2 fast days
This happened on friday parshas chukas in which the french burnt 24 cartloads of talmuds, which the rishonim were gozer a fast day, and more importantly it’s the 9th of Tamuz which was the day that the Babylonians entered the Yerushalim. We know that the first Beis Hamikdash was destroyed for sexual imorality. The 9th day it seems was the original fast of Tamuz which we changed after the destruction of beis sheni. We know that the fast of Tamuz will eventually be turned into a yom tov but the question is which one? The event of the recent days make it very clear that the 9th will never turn into a yom tov because a day like that can by definition never be a Yom Tov!
Remember Avraham was also picked not just because he was opposed to the positions of the world but he tried to change to world to be closer to HKB, there are many medrashim with Avraham trying to influence the world, which is the reason some of Chazal attack Noach for not doing in his generation (one that the medrish also says had same sex “marriage) to change them back to god. If we want to be proper beni Avraham and not beni Noach only do we have to oppose these laws but we have to lead the opposition to these laws! If we do what we are supposed to do regarding fighting these types of laws, God will help protect us from
Right now our job is to do teshuva for supporting all the candidates that allowed any teovah bills to pass (including Republicans like Skelos), we have to teach our children that this is one of the worst averas under the sun and we will not accept it even if they through us in jail or worse.
Your statement about tearing Kriya did a lot to reassure me that there is still much good in klal yisorel despite the fact that we (talking about “Orthodox” Jews) allowed this day to happen, and we can do Teshuva without piraniyus!
“adifferent opinions and scenarios related to this issue, and specifically about how the Agudah deals with it.”
this machlokes you created is really a machlokes in pesukim between dovid and Shlomo
Dovid said tov li toras picha mialfai zahav vichesef
Shlomo said kesef yana es hakol
we know hilchisa kibasra
so therefore Agudah paskens like Shlomo Hamelech
“This was the approach of the gedolim in Europe.”
to compare Europe to America is irreverent for most of Europen Jewish history we lived under monarchies, and even when under parliaments we were not dealing with any legislation that effected any 7 mitzvos that we could have possibly chained with out causing a massacre worse than the Holocaust. Jews in Europe were also in parliament system so anything we would do would be seen with extra suspicion, remember Agudah was a real legal political party in Poland like in Israel, and those who opposed it thought it would cause eivah. To compare America to Europe is like comparing a hatzlah member working Shabbos to a banker
PS: It’s known that the Chofitz Chaim tried to start a 7 mitzvos campaign in Europe.
“Even the Agudah’s “we do not seek to impose our religious principles on others” is weak. In fact, we wish we could, but alas, it’s technically true that we don’t, because we can’t.”
yes we could Agudah admits it met with Cuomo before the gay “marriage” bill.
The only reason they were there was to help him craft religious “exemptions” which is the sole reason it had the votes to pass!
Agudah supported MANY of the legislators who voted for the law.
the bill passed by only 2 votes in the senate, and 5 in the assembly.
we had the ability to stop it if we cared we didn’t, we failed, we will suffer, and if we don’t do teshuva we will face the punishment for the biggest avrah in Jewish history(serious of)!
my statement on this law
ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalanu, dabarnu dofi, etc
“however what is legally wrong with marrying one’s sister (what i meant originally when i said blood relatives)”
or today a father, or a brother?
don’t forget we now allow this evil lunacy
Charlie I see you think that localites have the right to demand you open your store on Shabbos.
According to your antisemitic view of how religious liberty should operate if a locality made a law mandating that all pharmacies open up 7 days a week, Jews would have no religious defense from this law.
charlie you are equivalent to the Jewish communists trying to stamp out religion in the name of your utopia of equality.
When the french revolution gave equal rights to Jews as long as they sacrificed their yiddishkiet French Jewery was lossed. Who cares if the French publicly shaved Jews Beards in public, mandated stores being open on Shabbos “that is the price to pay for equality”.
“The Rambam says Maaseh Eretz Mitzrayim is two women “being” together. Not attempting to marry someone of the same gender.”
I was reffering to the other 2/3 of the chazal
what lav is being included by saying men can’t “marry” men.
“”Marriage” is not part of their Mitzvos. Eishes Ish is. They have to accept Eishes Ish. That has nothing to do with any other form of “marriage”.”
how can you have Eishes Ish if you don’t have marriage (read the beginning of hilchos ishus)
I took this from Yeshiva World’s translation of Rav Hershel Shachter’s statement against women wearing tfellin (can’t find the original)
even if there is no issur (which I don’t agree with) for me to sell a “wedding” cake to 2 goyishi lesbos, according to the psak of R Yoshe Ber it’s still yehorag veal yaavor
“Divrei HaYamim: Find me what the Issur is. None of the Halachic Rishonim bring down that interpretation of Ma’aseh Eretz Mitzrayim, as far as I know. “
no rishon mentions it because it’s pashut pshat (there is absolutely no other way to read men “marrying” men without making it a completely extraneous drasha), the only reason why you think differently is because you are homosexualist.
“And having an agenda is still Hana’as Atzman. They don’t want to destroy religion. They just want religion to be “nice” to them. Now, the only way to accomplish that is by destroying religion. But that’s a means, not an end, which is exactly what Hana’as Atzman means.”
according to your new definition of a shaas hashmad, antiochus’s gezaros were not a shaas hashmad (read sefer chashmonaim). Or for that matter would Hadrians shaas hashmad which is the pinicile example of when chazal talk about a shaas hashmad (when they refer to a stam shaas hashmad)
“And an anti-Torah “Jewish” movement is Apikorsus. Goyim are not Metzuvim on things like Mach’chish Magideha and similar forms of Apikorsus. That’s why we have Torah Sheba’al Peh and they don’t.”
Goyim are mituva in accepting that there is a god and he gave them their mitzvos (the rambam says this explicitly), (which includes the concept of marriage) attempting to nullify it is apikorsus on a goyish level too.
“Divri- I don’t think we paskin halachah from Midrash. “
do you make the bracha of baruch shepatrani
if you do with shem and malchus you pasken 100% from a medrish
if you do without shem and malchus you still pasken from a medrish but not enough to make a bracha with shem and malchus
“The fact is, two women “marrying” each other is only an issur d’rabanan (I’m pretty sure that’s how the Rambam paskins- I have to look it up), which would certainly not apply to goyim.”
1. the rambam pasken’s it’s deoraysa, the punishment is derabanan
2. the source of the rambam’s psak strongly implies it’s ra biaynay hashem for a goy to be a lesbian even if it’s not assur (though I would argue that a lesbian “marriage” falls under apikorsus which a goy is michuyuv in, and thus the pshat in the vayikra rabah)
“By the way, I don’t know how legit this whole conversation is. What’s the Issur of a wedding? “
the halacha of meisah eretz mitroyim uses a lashon of marriage, the chazal learns out an issur of 2 men “marrying” each other from that pasuk. (this is the only possible pshat that doesn’t render this part of a halachich ruling irrelevant)
“The Torah has an Issur of Ma’aseh Biah. I’m not sure why a party celebrating something related to something Assur is Assur for non-Jews.”
see gemara in chullin 93b (this is quoted by poskim as halachaic)
the world only has 3 merits
1. that they don’t write kesubos for men
rashi writes that even though they are o’ver on mishkav zachar and are misyachid (like a spouse) they don’t have the chutzpa to write a “marriage” document
“This is not Sha’as Hashmad.”
1. government legislation is shaas hashmad
2. a movement that’s goals are directly against the Torah is also shaas hashmad (R Yoshe Ber paskened this way and it’s pashut that his psak would also be applied to the LGBT movement)
“It’s not L’ha’avir Al Das. It’s L’hana’as Atzman.”
This shows your lack of understanding of the lgbt movement, Gays suing people for not helping out in their “Wedding is only about forcing people to accept homosexuality. This boycott of Indiana by people around the country (who have never been to Indiana) by people who lose no personal benefits from this law, show that the gay movement is not for personal benefit but only to undermine God’s prohibition of homosexuality. Your saying this tells me you have been sleeping for the past 40 years. The LGBT movement is completely about L’ha’avir Al Das, arguing this point is like arguing if the World is spherical!
PS In some shilos uteshovos chilul hashem has has been used in limited cases when it’s L’hana’as Atzman. (I would also apply it here but that is not pashut)
divrei hayamim: Explanation, please.
1. chillul hashem is yehorag veal yaavor
2. shaas hashmad is yehorag veal yaavor
“It’s fairly Pashut that there is no Issur on two non-Jewish women to get married. “
vayikra rabbah (in achrai mos) includes 2 women “marrying” each other as a reason for the mabul
This bill is extremely necessary and doesn’t go far enough, a court can rule in favor of forcing a Jewish wedding hall to have a same sex “wedding” (because “discrimination” falls under the strict scrutiny test)
This bill should explicitly say that religious belief exempt someone from all LGBT discrimination laws!
My ancestors fled from Europe to America because of the first amendment protection would allow us to be follow yiddishkeit better in America then in Europe, now America has a shaas hashmad of homosexuality
the real question is how come not one of our so called Orthodox legislators trying to pass similar laws here in NY.
Even if it doesn’t pass it will send a major message and help Indiana withstand pressure to cave in to people like Cuomo and De Blasio YS.
where are Goldfeder, Hikind, Simanowitz, Felder, Deutch and Greenfield trying to push this in NYS or NYC.
why aren’t so called askonim calling on Cuomo to stop persecuting religious Jews.
Where is Agudah, OU, and all other advocacy organisations attacking Cuomo for his bigotry!
Last year Cuomo said Shomer Torah Jews have no place in NY
This year we also have no place in Indiana either
Maybe next year he’ll say the same thing in Yerushalim
It’s an issur gamur to help out a same sex “wedding”.
in fact it’s pashut that doing so in today’s environment is a yehorag veal yaavor