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I have a question for people that are against financially supporting kollel.
Let’s say you have a yungerman in a full-time kollel who can only sit still and learn for an hour or even half an hour. Are you not being mefarnes his Torah if you help support his kollel? Is a minimum amount of hours that a person has to be able to sit and learn in order to be worthy of being supported? Is there no reason in the world to help someone learn even an additional minute?
You’re looking at it as: this guy is wasting his time because he’s not suited for sitting and learning all day. But the reality is that every day this guy shows up to kollel even if he spends 7.5 hours a day in the coffee room, he is getting 30 more minutes of learning in than he would otherwise have been getting. And he is sitting protected in the koslei beis midrash instead of the pritzusdik shvakim (which he has less tavlin to combat against). There is nothing he could be doing that would be a greater fulfillment of his time for his neshamah and for all of Klal Yisroel and all darei malah u’matah during those few minutes.
Whether kollel-life is suitable for everyone as a long-term possibility or not or even whether it is something that is suitable for so many people to be doing, the fact is that those there are learning even a little bit more than they otherwise would have been. That’s always a good thing. (Unless there’s a mitzvah she’ee efshi al yedei acheirim, in which case its still better to learn but clearly the person wasn’t zocheh. See sefer Binyan Olam also chazer Sha’ar Daled).
Why would anyone b’shitah not want to support that?
You mean because most people are MO?
Sam2:
What Gemara? The nonexistant one that got edited out of the middle of Sanhedrin (maybe Gittin?) that to be factual as the way we have it would mean that Yushka lived over 150 years?
That is one possibility. Another is that the first author of the ‘nt’, wrote his book not 40 years after yoshke’s death but ~80 years after. Meaning that the Gemarah is right and the ‘nt’ is wrong.
There is evidence for this. For instance, an early church father named Epiphaneius also puts yoshke during the time of Yannai. There is a manuscript called Toldos Yeshu that Rashi quotes from. Although there are many different versions of this text today, certain elements can be found in them all, including this time earlier time frame.
Chuck Norris…
…is not very good at following halacha.
This must be the Blonde Roast thread.
Just to throw in my 2 cents to the advice the obvious advice of get help.
I grew up with a narcissist father and mother suffering from battered wife syndrome (which you seem to suffer from as well). By the time I had my bar mitzvah I had already asked my mother why she doesn’t divorce my father. That was when he still hit us (‘us’ as in the children, he never hit my mother). Around that time my mother was somehow able to get him to stop. However, the psychological abuse remained and if anything increased once he no longer opted to vent his tension physically.
The pros of staying in an abusive relationship for your children
-your children will “know their father”
-your children will have have economical support.
The cons of staying in an abusive relationship for your children
-your children will “know (the monster that) their father (is)”
-your children will learn to mimic the relationships they see to their own spouses
-your children will suffer psychological problems of their own, that they may spend the rest of their lives working through
My father also had his “good times”. In fact that’s part of the cycle of an abuser. The abuse need not be physical for it to be damaging. Most of my father’s abuse was/is psychological.
I urge you b’chol minei bakashos, to continue to pursue help from a rov, the task force or any other lifeline, with every ounce of strength you have. Whatever you are willing to suffer with from your husband, you’re children don’t have the understanding that you have and the abuse is all the more intense coming from a person who should ostensibly be their protector. As hard as it may be now, when you’re children are older they will appreciate the true mesirus nefesh that you had to protect them by saving them from an abusive father way more then for “putting up with him”. That seems to be a mistake that my mother made and she suffers from that decision daily, whether she is capable of recognizing it anymore or not.
DFor your sake and for the sake of your children, pursue help from any source you can find it. Persevere and do not stop until this situation is completely resolved.
I don’t understand what you are saying. Can you clarify?
lesschumras:
I’m curious, what was the mesorah for Chassidus and their adoption of a whole new nussach and minhaggim?
The mesorah begins by our gedolei hador. They are the ones to institute or remove elements of our hanhagah according to their da’as Torah. The Besh’t is obviously included in this elite group.
(You may argue that the opposition would disagree and I would turn your attention to the quote of the Chofetz Chaim by R’ Elchonon in koyveitz ma’amarim.)
Sam2:
Your logic is good and it’s a Svara that I would say. But it’s against the Shulchan Aruch.
What is?
ayid:
Yes, I purposely blurred the lines. That was my point. Not every action has a mesorah attached to it. What it should have, as alluded to in my last sentence is that it be done according to halacha. For me, it means following my Rav and his psak, for you it means following your Rav and his psak and for the makers of the Simchat Bat mentioned by the OP, it means following the psak of her Rav.
I agree that not every action has a mesorah attached to it, but I think that this is restricted to things like eating milichigs or fleishigs on a Wednsday night. Not creating religion inspired rituals.
But again, I am not saying what they did was wrong from a halachic perspective. But I think it is an expression of something fundamentally wrong with the person’s relationship to Judaism. On the other hand, if this was done wit the hamlataza of their Rabbi, then maybe the problem is not with the parents alone…
Yes. I hope so. Possibly. Easily.
viola obviously
zahavasdad:
So if someone wants to be part of the Kehilla you must dress like the Kehilla, so if the uniform of the Kehilla is a white shirt and a rain poncho you must wear it and if you DONT you are not a Ben-Torah and should be ostracized for being differnt
So is your question:
Why is it, that when someone expresses his desire to not be part of a certain society by not conforming to their standards is he perceived as an outsider?
So why when a Kehilla gets together to make community standards and one rov decides the standards are too leninent and tells people not to eat from the Kehilla hasghcha, He is considered a Tzadik
I don’t think I understand what you mean here.
jothar:
The way the Gedolim dressed when they were bochurim is not the way they dressed when they were Gedolim.
So even though all four of these gedolim went on to dress in the same black and white and there are no accounts of these gedolim telling their talmidim not to dress in black and white, or them theirs. Nor is there any account of the gedoliim speaking out against wearing black and white today.
Yet none of this is any indication of the opinion of gedolim on wearing black and white. Is that correct?
ayid:
Just curious. Did they institute the concept of making a kiddush in shul to celebrate the birth of a daughter? Celebrating an engagement with a “vort”? Chulent thursday nights? Late minyanim for shachris during bein hazmanim? These are all part of the Ashkenazic “mesorah”. I think what is most important is that someone who wants to make a “simchat bat” or whatever it is you want to call such a gathering, that it be done in a way that if they invite their Rav he would have no problems with any of the proceedings.
Making kiddush for the birth of a daughter in a Rabbinically sanctioned minhag.
Some form of vort was probably started by Rabbanim and it is only now that they’ve become ridiculously ostentatious that problems began.
Chulent Thursday nights can’t be called a minhag anymore then Thursday night pizza or Sunday night leftovers.
I think as long as one davens before the zman, there is no problem if you decide to daven later then yeshivah minyan during bein hazmanim.
I think you are (either purposely or not purposely) trying to conflate things minhagim with things that people do that might be wrong. Just because many many people talk during davening doesn’t mean that its the minhag to talk during davening. People do the wrong thing all the time. The question here is, what is the right thing.
I do agree with your last statement although I would add the caveat that the Rav be qualified for his position.
ayid: If its disrespectful to talk during davening why do so many people do it?
I place the tefillin shel rosh on the same side each day
miklal lav ata shome’ah hein.
So you don’t put your shel yad on the same side every day?
yicuhusdik:
I don’t think the problem with pizza is that it is new per se. There are people who don’t eat turkey because there is no mesorah for it. But I don’t think that it is the same reason for not eating pizza. I think there are other factors that led to those communities assur-ing pizza. Such as the propensity of people to congregate at pizza stores (think ave.’s j and m on friday afternoon).
Large families do have other options- its not the first time in Jewish history that we’ve had families without much money that needed food to eat. There are plenty of alternatives. The difference is that those other options are not as tasty or “fun”.
But if there is at least some precedent; if the activities are within the boundaries of halocho, even if they are different than some minhagim; if the event is done lesheim shomayim and with real hakoras hatov to HKBH; is it against halocho to do it?
As I said before, the problem is not that it might violate halacha but that it violates a mesorah. Consider, if you would go to Rav Elyashiv and say, I would like to celebrate the birth of my daughter according to the way those parents did, what do you think he is likely to say? Unless he feels you are so far from Torah that by doing this you’ll at least maintain some ties to Judaism he is most likely going to say no. It is not what we do. For a reason. So you can circumvent this problem by not asking Rav Elyashiv and then saying that you are doing it l’sheim shomayim. But shomayim wants you to do what Rav Elyashiv (or your LOR) tells you to do, not what you think is the right thing to do. Hasme wants mitzvos l’sheim shomayim, not aveiros l’sheim shomayim (not that I’m saying its an aveirah, but you get my point).
What was the point of all of that effort if we and our children won’t be expected to use our seichel and our capacity to find guidance in the massive canon of halocho to help us make decisions in our lives?
I would say that the money we invest is to teach our children when to ask questions. If you don’t know there is a halacha of borer on shabbos, you won’t know to ask if you can pull your jacket out from the bottom of the jacket pile.
Yes, we need to learn Halacha and when we reach a certain level of competency in it, we will be able to make a comparative level of decisions on our own. But even the famous poseik Dovid HaMelech double checked his decisions with his Rebbe.
The women here are rachmanus cases. The problem here is clearly a cult, not a logical outgrowth of tzniyus. This cult fulfills some psychological need these women have.
In modern society television has spread anorexia internationally. A psychologically balanced and emotionally sound, girl is much less likely to become anorexic just from watching thin women.
In meah shearim there is no TV. So these women with underlying psychological problems turn to something that is closer to home: namely an extremist person who can satisfy their unhealthy psychological needs.
Josh31:
Maybe there is a fkaw in your given:
1) Maybe they dress in formal black and white because there is a concept called “b’chol drachecha da’eyhu” and “shivisi hashem l’negdi tamid”. If you were hosting the president, I’m sure you would feel that the occasion warrants the status of black-tie. We are constantly “hosting” Hashem and should dress appropriately.
2) where does it say that another person has to be able to tell if you are dressed for Shabbos? I think it is only that you need to change your clothes, preferably to nicer ones. It is usually pretty clear when someones shoes seem extra spiffy one day a week.
3) So you are saying that the bride and groom deserve more honor than Hashem in who’s Presence we are constantly in?
…With a Mustache, beard , Black hat , Dark Suite and white shirt it can be difficult to distinguish different people in a large room. Even relatives whom I know well can be hard to find?
Is there some Inyan where everyone is supposed to look exactly the same and some individualim is allowed?
There is an inyan called “al tifrosh min hatzibbur”. Meaning there is a great maylah for a community to maintain a certain solidarity.
It seems that your question is…why do the members of the Lakewood community- rabbonim and baalei batim alike, all dress and look like Rav Ahron Kutler who began their community and they continue to look up to as their standard to this day? Is that correct?
BrawinwasheD: The Alter of slabodka used to encourage his talmidim to be individuals. That is how he could have talmidim ranging from Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L to Rav Meir Chadash ZT”L to Rav Dovid Leibowitz ZT”L to Rav Hutner ZT”L. Today’s black-and-white dress and soundalike gedolim biographies is part of the trend turning yiddishkeit into a sedom-betel.
Are you bringing a proof against wearing black and white from “individuals” like Rav Ahron Kutler, Rav Meir Chadash et al.? Have you ever seen a picture of them dressed?
lolkatz Where is “penguinism” (everyone dressing in black and white) brought down in halacha? This is just as much bal tosif as simchat bat. Furthermore, many Rebbes wear beautiful colored robes by their tisches. Why is color assur for their chassidim?
There is no halacha to wear black and white, but it is part of a mesorah. Simchas bat is not. Chassidim work very hard to maintain their mesorah and by not waering black and white, they would be breaking that mesorah. Also, I have seen navy blue tisch bekishes.
IS: I know that among my MO friends I can quote V’yoel Moshe, Rav Shach, and all sorts of other charedi rabbanim and rebbes on anything from Torah to the most controversial political issues but among my yeshivish friends I can’t quote a pshat Rav Aharon Lichtenstein said on a Ro”Sh in gittin.
That is absurd and I think you know it. I have heard plenty Yeshivish Rabbonim quoting from Chassidishe Rabonim. Go find me a yeshivah that doesn’t have a sfas emes on the shelves or even a nesivos shalom. The R”Y of Lakewood East loved to tell a story where he heard Rav Ahron praising the Satmar Rebbe. The point is obviously that certain Rabbis are not recognized as valid dissenting opinions. Those are the ones that are not quoted.
I think the problem here is that the parents are expressing a lack of emunas chachomim and are not keeping in line with our mesorah:
First of all, while it may be true (I’ve never heard of this but I can ask my b-i-l who is sephardi and didn’t have this for his daughter) that certain sephardim have some sort of “simachas bat”, I think it was assumed that the parents here were not sephardi. This then is a clear violation of their mesorah. The mesorah is there for a reason, not to cherry pick what we like about it, but to follow. I can’t start putting my tefillin shel yad on while sitting (as sephardim do), simply because I think it is the “better” way. It is not part of my mesorah. A mesorah that was formulated by the talmidei chachamim of my ancestors’generations. Which brings me to my next point.
The halachos of the S”A are not the only place we turn to for deciding how to run our lives. It is the basis, yes, but within the strictures of the S”A we are required to follow our Rabbonim. Those Rabbonim can and do institute further minhagim into our mesorah, such as kitniyos (as was pointed out in another post) and even gebrokts. These reasons make sense to them, and as I am not even a fraction of the talmuch chacham that they are, it is incumbent on me to be mevatel myself to their da’as.
Ashkenaz Rabbonim have not instituted any sort of “simchas bat” and therefor it is not part of our mesorah. By formally ritualizing a practice that was not instituted by our Rabbonim, a person is essentially saying, “Rabbonim, your reasons for not instituting minhag X are invalid in face of my feelings.”
Yes, the birth of a daughter, I can testify to, is a very joyous time. But that doesn’t give us the right or the ability to begin performing rituals that are not part of our mesorah.
I am not expressing my opinion of these people as people. Obviously these are people that feel tremendous gratitude for every gift they are given. However, their actions express how they associate to certain aspects of Judaism. That is not a judgment on them, that the reality that they are manifesting with their actions.
I think they are mainly referring to kikar tzion (crack square) since that is where the main socializing (drinking and drugs) take place. Altough it does also take place in ben yehudah, malcha, eilat etc as well.
I think the difference is that in brooklyn, since there are parents around, the parents will act as (legal)guardians and guard their children to the best of their abilities.
As I mentioned in the thread about colored shirts, I have seen it brought down in seforim that there are inyanim to wear black or/white clothing. I imagine that it is for those reasons that the minihag became to wear black.
I see the opposite of Jothar. I see that although there has definitely been a great yeridah in the depth of our learning, there has been an incredible aliyah in the quantity. I’m sure that we haven’t seen such numbers of people learning on a regular basis since the times of the gemorah. It could be that since there are so many more “mini”-talmidei chachomim (as opposed to a few major-talmidei chachamim) the minhag spread more thoroughly to follow these inyanim that are brought in seforim.
Think about it. If 3 out of 10 people read about “A”, then they may be the only ones follow it. But if 7 out of 10 people read about “A” then you will likely find all 10 people doing it.
Where everyone dresses as if they are Klei Kodesh
what do you mean by “klei kodesh” here? Like the gedolim? I never thought to ask, but I imagine that since the gedolim tell us what to do, they would have made their opinion known had they not wanted us to dress in the same colors (or lack thereof) as them.
and on weekdays as if it is Shabbos
As far as I know, everyone who dresses in black and white- Chassidish or Litvish- has different Shabbos clothing for Shabbos.
So what you are saying is that you would not attend a black-tie reception during the week?
Just as far as your logic goes, I’m left a little confused. If you are saying that in order to appreciate the colors that Hashem created, one must dress in them, does that mean if a man would wear all the colors of the rainbow except pink or purple it shows he lacks appreciation for those colors? What about the non-visual spectrum? If someone doesn’t use an x-ray on a regular basis, does that show he doesn’t appreciate x-rays, ultraviolet, infrared?
Or perhaps there is room to say that it is possible to appreciate certain elements of Hashem’s creation from afar? Such as by using red brick in your house or painting a room blue.
Josh31: probably.
stanleyc: Have you ever heard of white-tie or black-tie events?
I think that on some level this indicates that society still considers dark suits and white shirts to be the most chashuv way of dressing.
In my albeit limited experience, I’ve found that a lot of people equate physical comfort with happiness. The concept of a “fulfilling life” seems to be a strange, alien thing. Today, only the (ayin)ashir can supposedly be the (alef)ashir.
(I’ve had many a conversation (read: argument) with an important figure in my life, who believes that its imperative that I own more than three or four pairs of pants and shirts and two suits. This person gets angry that I refuse to buy more clothing on the grounds that I simply have enough to meet my needs.)
B”H I find that in E”Y in my general community, I think that in most homes, this is no the case. The high school kids actually do put in a good 10-12 hours daily on Sundays too no less and because everyone else does it, no one seems to feel they’re missing out on anything.
No one looks down on the youngerman who tries to sell cakes to make a couple extra shekel. In fact, one of the happiest people I ever met actually did this when I was in yeshivah in order to put together enough money for Shabbos.
IS:
From the Ra”v on the mishnah in megillah 4:8 it sees that what the mishnah means is that it was the derech haminim to be makpid to only daven for the amud in non-colored clothing. Not that it is the derech haminim to dress in white altogether.
ahgittetayna: I agree with you that it is not always difficult to find reasons for random minhagim, I see that as a generally positive in that nothing we do is empty, everything has a reason.
However, just like I can teitch Bereishis 1:1 as “Bereishis created…” and still be grammatically correct, I have to be careful not to make up my own answers to questions because that can get dangerous. There needs to be some discretion and answering to a higher authority with everything that one does.
When it comes to livush, there are minhagim with reasons al pi mesorah and kabbllah for dressing in certain colors and/or certain ways. I don’t begrudge anyone their decisions but personally, if I had two modes of dress to choose from, one with a rabbinically approved kavanah behind it- I’m going to choose that one.
Sam2: If you see the raid on the amud you’ll notice that they explain that their is an inyan in wearing all white, only that we should not be makpid on it over davening for the amud when the tzibbur wants that person.
pba said it best as usual. Its very common for BT’s to go past what they are ready for. Unfortunately the feeling of “overburdened” that comes from moving too far too fast has caused many a BT to fall back down.
When I spoke to my R”K about taking on a new minhag in my clothing he told me to first discuss it with someone who knows me very well, like a rebbe and figure out why I felt it necessary to make this change. Then after that, to take it on slowly, such as only Shabbos an Y”T etc.
Assuming everything in the your theoretical case was true- especially that his hashkafos are yeshivish to a strong degree in all areas- I would say that its probable that this person would be ready.
But as in any case, the person has to contemplate how he would feel being identified as a “black hatter” and just as importantly in my opinion, how comfortable he feels among other “black hatters”.
I thought that if you are being koveah seudah on it, its hamotzi either way. Am I wrong?
Sam2: I’m not sure what nekudah you are trying to bring out from that siman. All it is saying is that we are not makpid on other people’s clothing, not that there is no reason not to wear a certain color/type of clothing.
I don’t remember the mekokr for wearing white, it might be from the zohar since I remmeber him mentioning something about the Arizal. But it is probably based on the posuk in koheles 9:8.
In any case as I said before, whatever the mekoros are for wearing white, today we can’t do that since it causes gayvah in people that are not mushlam in their midos.
Meanwhile back in the CR Cave…
…my older sister got engaged and i am going nuts! I am so excited!!!! I can’t believe it is so exciting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How could you not believe it is so exciting when you’re currently experiencing the excitement? The trait of denial is so strong, that not only can it cause a person to not believe in Hashem despite everything, it can even cause a person to not believe how exciting something is, even in the face of that excitement. I’ve always said that people have an incredible ability to pull the wool over their own eyes. This is just an extreme example of this principle, but a good one nonetheless.
…oh and Mazal Tov!
IS: I can’t argue about your rename, but you have to admit, he has a broad knowledge base.
I don’t remember everything he says, but I recall that ideally we should wear all white, just that only ba’alei madreigah can do that because for the rest of us it will cause gayva.
He brings two opinions on wearing all black and then a third that gives the dissenters reason for wearing black as a reason to wear it. Or something like that.
He also explains the minhag to always wear a jacket/rekel as well as the vest that some chassidim wear based on the machlokes of over or under the shirt.
I believe I’ve also seen either there or in another sefer the reason for tucking pants into socks.
The sefer Minhag Yisroel Torah (a really fun sefer actually)explains the minhag to specifically wear black and/or white.
Maybe even though Hashem knows everything that will happen b’tachlis hayediya, He is metzamtzem His yediyah in order that it not interfere with the bechirah that He wants us to have.
So even though we don’t have bechirah, we have bechirah.
Similar to this is that Hashem is everywhere and yet simultaneously, the world exists.
That’s what I think anyway.
I don’t think the halacha of davening in an alternate language would depend on what the angels can understand. We aren’t davening to them after all. Also, as far as I know it is only Aramaic that angels can’t understand, not all languages besides L”K.
If the choice is between davnening in L”K and not understand vs. davening in English and understanding- it seems that people generally do the former. For instance, the kavanah that we have for Shemoneh Esrei is not even a scratch of what the Anshei Kneses Hagedolah had in mind, yet even though we don’t understand the depths of what we are saying, we still don’t switch to English.
I was told by my R”K that its not so poshut to say all non-frum Jews are under the classification of tinok shenishba. He explained that there are different opinions among the poskim and it could be that the average non-frum might not have that classification.
IS:I read this on Wikipedia and assumed that it was the same:
A Unix shell is a command-line interpreter or shell that provides a traditional user interface for the Unix operating system and for Unix-like systems…Graphical user interfaces for Unix, such as GNOME, KDE, and Xfce are often called visual or graphical shells.
But I guess they aren’t the same. I only just recently started dipping my toes into the non-windows waters. So I didn’t know there was a difference.
I’m hardly an expert in these things as I’ve only recently gotten into learning Linux and friends. ICOT probably knows the answer best, but as far as I know, in terms of LINUX based shells, Ubuntu is currently using the Unity shell, but supposedly GNOME 3 is better. I haven’t noticed much of a difference, but as I said, I’m no boki.
I have not seen it inside, but it appears to be widely known that the Vilna Gaon was not makpid on saying it with someone.
I actually know of one of my rebbbeim from back when I was in yeshivah who used Sarno’s to get over either CMV, mono, or CFS. I can’t remember which it was now.
But he was also really intelligent. He probably could have convinced himself he has a third arm…and used it.
ronsr: I think the answer to your question can be found in the statement directly above it.
Jothar, what Machlokess?
Maybe the machlokes whether in ymos moshiah there will be a shinui hatevah. The Rambam holds that the only difference will be shibud malchiyos and all the nevuos are to be read allegorically.
How did Derech go from wondering about becoming frum to wondering if Lubavitch is no longer frum, in 5 minutes?
I was wondering the same thing.
I agree with koillel.
The yalkut says that they were exiled to three places, the sambatyon, a place further away then the sambatyon and another place, I don’t remember where.
I once heard a speech a long time ago from a person who was trying to track down the shevatim. He said that they triangulated a certain place somewhere in yehupitzville (I don’t remember where) and he tried getting there three times, but each time he had to stop for some crazy reason like his house burning down.
I was thinking either psychologist or serial murderer. I’m having trouble deciding which would be more in-line with my talents. I guess I’ll just have to do the research and see. Also its important to think about which one of them will give me more sipuk. I don’t want to become a psychologist and then wake up one day and realize I’d be having much more simchas hachaim as a serial murderer.
The important decisions in life are always the hardest.