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g_a_w: So she is Stam an Am Haaretz who doesn’t know that men have been working in kitchens (including the Amoraim that I & WS mentioned earlier) for Dorei Doros? Your explanation may be plausable, but mine is being Dan L’Kaf Zechus.
In your explanation, you are making the Rebbitzen out to be a bigger Am Haaretz. The Tanaaim and Amoraim definitely had more Torah to be mechabed than my R”Y does. But from the fact that they are singled out we can infer that they were yichidim in their actions who saw specific toeles for them in the individual things they did. And we can also say they did it for kovod Shabbos or Sholom Bayis. Both may be reasons to make exceptions. But from the exceptions we can learn the rule.
Sam2: That’s because it’s a good story and it wouldn’t go over as well in certain Velts with the name R’ Soloveitchik as with R’ Moshe. But it happened with Rav Yoshe Ber. I have heard several firsthand testimonies to that fact.
I don’t know if what you say is correct or just a smidgen or m”sra. Who is Rav Yoshe Ber?
It seems that a husband is obligated to make his wife happy. Meaning without him she wouldn’t be happy.
Is that it or is it that she was happy before, but now he needs to make her more happy.
g_a_w:Out of that shittah comes the Kollel guys who claim that taking out garbage is “beneath them”. I hear, it is a “Lakewood” shittah
Honestly, I would have thought a thought like that would have been beneath you. I don’t know much at all about Lakewood (in America), but I’m sure that’s pure motzi shem ra.
Once again, you are “playing G-d” by making the Tachlis of every woman not to learn. Who are you to tell the Ribbono Shel Olam why He put a specific woman in this world? Perhpas “B’derech Klal” we can say they have a Netiyah (Chazal say so), but for an individual?
I am speaking in generalizations. The only difference is that I’m also questioning whether an urge to learn Torah is a valid netiya.
The only story I know about Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik is about the woman who came to him wanting to put on a tallis . He told her to try out a non-Kosher one for x amount of time to see if she would really get anything out of it. At the end of that amount of time, she came back and said that she had. He then sent her on her way, because it was clearly in her head being as the tallis wasn’t kosher.
If it is beneath “Kavod HaToyrah” to cook for one’s family (or one’s self), it is certainly beneath them to take out the garbage.
I don’t know why you pulled kavod haTorah into it. Is that part of the famous Lakewood shitta? My understanding of Rav Ahron Kotler’s Rebbitzen’s admonishment is that she objected to his being in the kitchen on the grounds that he was male, not a ben Torah. I could have misunderstood it.
Same2 He is pointing out that in many Chareidi communities there are people who mistreat Geirim.
And I was pointing out that he is a great example of the pot and the kettle with his overtly antagonistic attitude towards charedim.
Regardless, it may be true that there are people in the Charedi comunites who mistreat geirim, but I think there are the nebuch cases in every community. On the other hand, like in every community, there are also people in Charedi communities who go out of their way to make geirim feel welcome.
See, in ten steps, you have it all changed.
Can we use your 10-step method for losing weight as well?
Few in europe said “o” they either said oy ei or ow
In the last years of Europe there was a lot more “ow” than the other two.
Sam2: And I said back to him, “Do you think you’re learning will cause the Torah to be Miskayeim B’yisrael? By that logic, only R’ Chaim (Kanievsky) should learn. No. You have a Kiyum in learning. So does she. They might not be the same Kiyum, but why are you trying to deny someone something you can’t live without?”
Although I think your friends comment about getting him a coffee was disrespectful, I think it does provide an example of a wife helping her huband learn in fulfillment of nashin bmai zakain. Also the Nefesh Hachaim does say that limud HaTorah provides kiyum to all the olamos and I don’t think he specifies Torah of gedolim, so I’m not sure where your answer comes from. The question would be if he would also say that about women learning.
What kiyum do women get from limud haTorah?
OoM: All I am trying to say that that those who are not be denied their abilites simply because it does not fit into certain perceptions of what a woman should be.
My personal belief is that whatever the previous generation thought is good, change (where it is not heferu torasecha) is bad. I don’t think that we have such a perception by accident. I think there is a reason for it and I think this reason stems from what I believe is the tachlis of a man or woman. Yes, an individuals tachlis can vary, but I think there are general rules and we can infer those rules the Torah: a man fulfills his tachlis through all the mitzvos, a women fulfills her tachlis by emulating eishes Chayil (and of course hermitzvos).
Why do you feel that just because someone has an ability it is meant to be put to good use and not meant to be a nisayon to overcome?
You are centering religious worship around gender roles. My premise is that religious worship may not necessarily be centralized in the way you think it is.
I think I am doing just the opposite. I am inferring gender roles from religious worship (ie. from what the Torah tells us about men and women).
I completely forgot that I had posted on this thread. How does everyone remember where their posts are???
This is not only sexist, its plain wrong. When the Kohanim roasted meat in the Bais Hamikdash, they were not doing Avodas HaKodesh? Do I have to list the Tannaim/Amoraim who would specifically cook or otherwise prepare for Shabbos themselves?
Cooking was only an example of what I think is considered part of being and akeres habayis. Comparing taking care of the home to the avodah in the Beis HaMikdash is not my own comparison, I’m pretty sure I saw it from Rav Shimshon Pinkus. Obviously the men in the actual B”HMK are doing avodah. I think this is not comparable to what the preparations that the Tanaaim and Amoraim did, I don’t believe they were doing it as part of taking care of the home, but rather as part of kovod Shabbos.
I think I specifically mentioned cooking because I enjoy cooking (maybe breakfast for himself, I don’t remember) and my R”Y told us that one time he was cooking and his grandmother R’ Ahron Kotler’s Rebbetzin told him that “a bochur doesn’t belong in the kitchen”.
When a man sends his wife out to learn Torah, he gets a more Kosher and Torahdik home (assuming he sends her out to learn the right things, not the Sem “Yalkut Shimoni” Tiflus). Halevai every woman should have a seder in Basar V’Chalav.
I am not talking about going to a nice shiur once or twice a week for chizuk. Althogh as you point out, his benefits from such a thing would be a kosher and torahdig home. The difference I think is that this is only an indirect way of getting schar: a more torahdig home= less aveiros, more mitzvos. While a man’s limud Torah directly generates schar for his wife. I think it would be more beneficial for the husbands to have such a seder, because my experience is that Jewish wives always know to ask, only sometimes the husband pretends to know…
Who are you to decide what the Netiya and the Derech of Avaodas Hashem is for any individual, male or female? Who are you to say that the Torah of people like Reb. Nechama Leibowitz or Reb. Bruria David should have not been revealed to Klal Yisroel!?
I don’t think these are my ideas. I look at what men are mitzuveh to do and what women are and take my cues from there. A man is mitzuveh to learn Torah a women is not. Ergo, a man fulfills his tachlis through limud torah, a women does not. Eishes Chayil doesn’t talk about the women who sit by the gates. I’ve never heard of those Rebbetzins.
I counsel gerim to avoid the Haredi world as much as possible, because the parochial nature of such communities is prone to racism.
Does anyone else see the irony here?
Most geirim are looked at as weird and outsiders
Because most of them ARE weird.
And that is the real answer to why they are chozer l’suram. Most of them are not stable.
If this is true, then I have a different possibility. For many years now, I’ve noticed a very big trend in baalei teshuva where after a year or so they begin to backslide. I’ve even seen individuals backslide multiple times.
A number of years ago I mentioned this to one of my rebbeim and I suggested that the problem is that although there is a tremendous effort being put into making baalei teshuvah, there is very little being done to integrate them into their new respective societies. The result is that you can usually spot a baal teshuva from a mile away.
If you are saying that there is a similiar problem with geirim, then maybe the problem is not in the gierus, but how the geirim are taught to integrate afterwards.
All the geirim I know seem to be doing very well B”H and are married with children.
hat is wrong with bringing your chickens to her and asking her about hilchos Shabbos (or esrog)? If she is well versed in these areas, and knows how to learn, what is wrong with her answering?
That is exactly my point. There is nothing wrong with that per se. But once it becomes an official title, then even things that are less ok might start to fall under her jurisdiction.
haifagirl, damoshe: Is this really the thread for that? This girl wants to stop listening to non-Jewish music. Whether you agree with her or not, whether you even think its possible or not, this thread was created by her to help her. Try to respect that.
We see from hear
I get it:
???? ??? ???? ?? ??????
I like that first vort a lot.
hey yoya: I don’t think that pba is making fun of the israeli army as much as he is making fun of the draft.
I didn’t know that the ministering angels don’t have a sense of individuality. Although if they don’t, I would have thought it would be because of their unimaginable self-negation to Hashem.
I do think that conformity is a great way to raise like-minded children. Being a poresh min haTzibbur is not a good thing.
I don’t think that a person loses his individuality by conforming to a dress code. I think this can be substantiated by a quick glance at 5 charedi people.
I guess the administration and parents of that school would disagree with your position.
I do not see how that follows my train of thought.
I’m sorry, I don’t know how to explain it better than that. Maybe I am just not understanding what you were saying, so my point makes no sense to you.
For example, women do not have an obligation to engage in talmud torah, but it does not logically follow that women are unable to engage in talmud torah.
Well I agree with your saying that women are physically and mentally able to engage in Talmud Torah.
I think that in a thousand years maybe a small handful of women would be able to plumb the depths of Torah like Rav Elyashiv did though. Not because I think women are dumb, but because I think that women’s intelligence generally lies in different areas.
An example: A man is able to cook. When a man cooks, he makes food. When a women cooks she does avodas haMikdash. So why would a man cook (obviously not talking in extenuating circumstances)?
Another example: When a man sends his wife out to learn Torah, he gets (hopefully embarrassed, but other than that) nothing. When a women sends her husband out to learn Torah, she gets all the schar and benefits of learning Torah.
My point is, why make our own avodas perach? Why would we want to put ourselves into a situation where we are not enhancing ourselves is the way most beneficial for our roles?
yichusdik: I think hypothetically, you make a good point. But practically speaking, I think it can open up a path better left closed. Once you open a new position of Jewish leadership, there will be those that will push/push themselves into more areas of Jewish life.
You have the “Rabbonis” that you’re bringing your bedikos and your chickens too. Soon you’re asking her your hilchos Shabbos. Five years later, your neighbor is bringing his esrog.
When its an official title, you have an opening to broaden the responsibilities in dangerous ways. When you are going to the “Rov’s Rebbitzen” and her authority is only an extension of her husband’s, then I feel this possibility is prevented.
The question is, why be poretz geder? Like you say, many of these roles have been and are already unofficially filled by women. What is wrong with the way of our fathers (and mothers)?
I understood you to be saying that some women have natural tendency towards fields that were historically typified as belonging to the men and that a balance needs to be found between these tendencies and religious gender obligation.
What I am saying is that being a “natural tendency” does not legitimize a negative character trait.
After re-reading what you wrote, I wonder if you were just saying that women are just as smart as men albeit generally (but not exclusively) in a different way. If that is the case, then I agree with you.
If that was not the case, then I found your position to be too abstract and would appreciate a more concrete explanation and/or example.
I do not advocate being stylish. That is equally silly. But to ignore the unpopularity of Yiras Hashem while attending to specifics of manner of dress is not the mission of yeshivos.
So you are saying, because the NYP didn’t have an article about the asei tov the yeshivah is doing to encourage Yiras Shomayim, they must be solely focused on the sur meyra.
The truth is that you don’t know. Fashion in Boro Park has reached a point that is beyond outrageous. Here is a Yeshivah that clearly can see this as an issue and are taking steps that will hopefully help their children in this issue. For all we know, the Yeshivah also incorporated mandatory lessons in a sefer about Yiras Hashem as part of their efforts. But that doesn’t make news in NYP.
Banning stylish clothes has its place (provided its not too little too late), but among the goyim it is also juicy news.
Permissible things can also enhance or detract…
Following your logic, the more a menahel or rebbe is interested in the externals of his talmidim, the less he will be able to concentrate on the ruchniyus. There is nothing wrong with a dress code in a yeshiva, but all of these gashmiyus issues that are truly trivial have become priority over the mission of transmitting the values of Ahavas Hashem and Yiras Hashem to the younger generation. We’re in trouble until the nonsense stops.
I think you have it backwards. Sublimating the externals goes hand in hand with enhancing ruchniyus. There is no room for Ahavas Hashem and Yiras Hashem in someone who is busy scouting stores for the latest fashion. That is called Ahavas haGashmiyus and Yiras ha”what will my neighbor think if s/he sees me in THAT”.
If you don’t believe that, I urge you to take a look at Boro Park today. B”H that is only the worst example and there are many who escaped that test. But if that doesn’t depress you, I don’t know what will.
Every single thing in the world is part of our avoddah whether to enhance us or as a nisayon against us. Glasses are no exception.
IMHO, the lack of recognition of this fact is one of the biggest problems in the greater Yeraim community, both on the “right” and on the “left”.
I think that you are right, although I only meant netiyos in avodah, not hashkafa.
hat is why you MUST always have a Rav for guidance.
But that was yichusdik’s point, wasn’t it.
yichusdik: I can’t speak for why the political leaders did what they did until now. Nor do I even know what it is they did. I think they worked to the best of their ability to accomplish what they thought they needed to accomplish. Were they lacking in ability? Maybe. Again that is not something I have even an iota of understanding about. Yet I still don’t feel antagonistic towards them in this regard (the inter-charedi politics really bothers me though). I feel that as our leaders they are only able to accomplish what we, their constituents are zocheh to. The position that we are in today is not their fault but our chovos.
The truth is, I don’t even know why I am trying to respond to your post. I really don’t know or understand anything about politics or government. I’m not even catching your references.
So following that logic do you think it is better for someone with a naturally angry disposition to channel his anger in non-abusive ways or to work on becoming humble?
Yes everyone is born with different natural tendencies. The good ones are there to be enhanced and the bad ones are there to spend a lifetime overcoming.
At the risk of sounding chauvinistic, I recall seeing in a sefer I wish I could remember where) something along the lines, that as a result of the switch of Dinah and Yosef, she ended up with a (Yosef’s) male tendency to “go out” and that was where she got caught.
On the other hand, my R”Y told us that Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer (his grandfather) dictated to his Rebbitzen the entire Even HaEzel the implication being that she was able to understand his ideas.
Similarly, at an asifa in his house, a Rov quoted a posuk and she came out from the kitchen to tell him he had misquoted it (they were both right, the gemara had a different girsa than the tanach).
At another asifa in her house she came out to tell them to stop dithering when the right thing to do about a certain issue was obvious. So this is obviously a brilliant lady who is not afraid to put herself out there.
The point though, is that all this being so, she was still not a public lady. She didn’t become a “Maharat” or try to pasken women’s issues. Her greatest contribution, the one that only she could perform, was to raise an invalid (her husband) into a gadol hador. That is what makes her an eishes chayil. Not a chayeles.
I am with Toi on “frei”. I always thought that “arbeit macht frei” was written with a spark of true nevuah. The non-frum thought that they were frei when really only “arbeit [fur Gott] macht frei”.
I think of shiktaz the way HaKatan describes it. As a way of subconsciously brain-washing myself to the idea that their ways are lowly. I don’t use the other word.
I heard similar to WIY regarding tinok shenishba, that today its not so poshut for someone to be that. Still “ein HKB”H bo b’tyronia im biryosav”.
yichusdik: At what point in our history did the guidance of our gedolim … turn into something completely different, i.e. a priori dictation to all of day to day decision making, ways of thinking, and even who to associate with or look at – without being asked a question about it first?
Are you saying that you think it became an assumption of what gedolim would say, or that gedolim did in fact become the dictators of day to day living?
If the former, than I would say that there will always be those that think they know what they don’t.
If the latter, I think t has to do with accessibility. In the past, going to see a gadol was an undertaking in travelling. You asked what was vital and did the best you could. Today’s yeshivah system allows for a relatively more intimate relationship. It is logical to try to emulate those that have reached a higher state of perfection than oneself.
That is not to say that there aren’t different drachim for different nitiyos. But most of those drachim can be found within the various gedolim that we have today. And even in the case of Rav Chaim, the story is that the Chazon Ish encouraged him in his derech halimud. I think even if one develops one’s own derech such as Rav Zilberberg and Rav Pincus, it is important to do so under the auspices of gedolim who have the ability to see the right of it.
Call it yeridas hadoros if you will, but everyone always thinks they are doing the right thing – even when its detrimental. I have seen/heard of cases of people “following their own derech” to a bad end. Maybe in the past, without all our psychological problems, this wasn’t an issue. Or maybe, we just don’t realize how much the gedolim of yesteryear actually did emulate their rabbonim to become what they became.
The problem becomes when you call anyone who wants to take away funding a “Rasha”, and declare that funding is a “right”.
Well, under the law previously, that funding was a right. I also recall hearing that some gedolim stipulated that charedi mosdos would be self-governming when they were forming the state, but I can’t recall who or for what.
I think the problem you have with calling them “Rasha” is not that they are wrong per se,just that it is bad politic. I think this is in-line with the garbage-burning way of protest. One of my rebbeim explained to me that in E”Y the only way for Charedim to get attention to their needs is by taking extreme measures. I am uncomfortable with it being raised in America. But if that’s the position they are forced into, what can they do?
Look, maybe you are right in the end. Maybe in the minds of the Israeli Charedim they have been demonized for so long, that they start to by into it.
Hi Revooh16
I was also in your position once a long time ago. I switched from the worst rap to L’Chaim Tish. My advice to you is not to let yourself become crazy over it. Find Jewish music that you enjoy (even only a little) and start with filling your music time with that. It will be very hard in the beginning because you will get these strong urges to switch back to non-Jewish music. But those urges are normal and OK, don’t let them take you over, just accept them (not give in to them) calmly and let them pass. Tell yourself to calm down, relax “its ok, I don’t have to give in to it. This feeling will pass and I’ll be fine”. Eventually, your tastes will change over time and you will come to appreciate Jewish music and the way it elevates you much much more.
kfb: You say that you understand the dress code of black and white, velvet yarmulke…
I’m sure you don’t think that Hashem said people must wear black and white velvet yarmulke…, so why do you think Hashem has to say people shouldn’t wear thick black glasses in order for there to be a reason people shouldn’t wear them?
I didn’t read this article, but if what you are saying is true, I think the reason is obvious. The more a person – especially a man- is invested in something like fashion, the less he is invested in ruchniyus. The aim of this chassidishe school is to raise Jews completely invested in ruchniyus. Ergo, they ban stylish things, in order that their children don’t get attached to them.
charliehall: He got lots of support for the idea from frum academics like me, but no rosh yeshiva signed on
And I think here is where the dichotomy between us would become apparent. I would have said, if those with da’as Torah have a problem with this idea, there must be something wrong with it that I as someone without da’as Torah don’t understand. While you seem to be implying that you feel your opinion can hold weight against Roshei Yeshivah.
yytz: In Eretz Yisroel they call it “Torasan Umanusan”. Many mikvaos have separate prices for those whose trade is Torah. So I guess their fathers have taught them a trade. Also please see Siman 116 of Igros Moshe Y”D chelek beis here:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=919&st=&pgnum=188
I don’t think that the professions of those you mention (maybe with the exception of the Rambam), proves that one needs to have a profession. Only that they felt that they themselves had no recourse in order to support their families. Once they were in that position they chose a profession where they can perform chesed at the same time. The question is, were the Ramban here today in our society of kollelim, would he still choose to engage in a profession? Would you want him to?
josh31: I’m sorry but I’ve read your post 5 times and I’m having a lot of trouble following what you’re saying. I think you are saying that in order to learn Torah without any secular studies, a person would be constrained to only a few subjects, which is why so many people advocating the no-secular studies approach only seem to know aggadata.
Then you bring in Zeeskite as an example of a girl with a wide chelek in torah. It happens to be that I had already known that he was a boy. But even if that wasn’t true, I don’t understand what point you were trying to make there. And I have no idea what you were talking about with 32 amos.
However, at least regarding you’re first point I can comfortably disagree with your assertion that people who advocate limiting secular subjects only learn aggadata. In fact that pure bologna.
Moving on. There may be nuances that you can catch in a given gemarah because of additional knowledge in math, just as a physicist or psychologist might. The Torah is infinite and encompasses all knowledge and that is to be expected. But that doesn’t mean the psychologist should learn physics in order to be able to glean those extra ideas. Unless that is something he is interested in pursuing. But the much greater body of Torah does not require any sort of advanced secular knowledge in order to understand it.
Brony: You are clearly only looking to antagonize. Would you say a nom-jew who happened to show up at that time to take poctures was also a follower of Rav Steinman?
The call of Rav Steinman and Rav Chaim was to come to the kosel to daven and say tehillim. Those that went to the kosel and davened and said tehillim followed the directive of Rav Steinman. Those that went and threw rocks did not follow his directive. Maybe in other areas they do follow his directives, anything is possible (although I suspect that if true , it is only when it suits their desire). But at least in this regard they were not “his followers” ie. someone who follows his directives.
Nishdaygeshaft’s post is completely understandable. He is saying that a person should feel embarrased to be associated with someone who espouses views that suggest his own superior understanding to Rav Steinman. he is using irony and sarcasm to embellish his point. Maybe your inability to understand his post is not because of a lack in his skill in expression.
zdad: If one listens to their gedolim then they should be rewarded from Hashem. Its not the job of fellow man to reward someone for following someone elses Gedolim unless they want to
I realized that although you didn’t counter my answer to your previous point, that this comment may have also been directed towards me based on my response to g_a_w.
So to answer I would say that it is true that a person does not reward someone else for following their gedolim. However, giving tzedakah to a poor person is not their reward. It is your commandment.
mdd: DM, in my opinion, the Israeli Chareidim have a history of taking extreme and untenable positions. Besides, it looks bad — they want the government funding, but they don’t want to follow the rules. It is high time to stop.
Yes, they are extreme to you because you don’t want to follow them. And exactly what rules are you referring to that the Chareidim are not following? The rule was that Chareidi yeshivos got funding and had control over their own curriculum. Now the government is changing the law and chareidim are working to prevent that. Where within that framework do you see people who don’t want to follow the rules?
I would like to ask you though, who exactly do you accuse of historically taking extreme and untenable positions?
yytz: As far as I know, there’s no pasuk that says, “Don’t worry about saving lives, just study Torah and that will save more lives than you ever could by trying to save lives.”
There is also no pasuk that says a person should learn medicine in case he needs to save a life. What we do have is the Yerushalmi that calls the lomdei Torah “neturei karta” over the guards. We have many gemaros that speak about how the Torah protects people.
The truth is, I think you’re right about this. How do I know X’s Torah study is enough to help Y. Maybe we should get Z in on it too, just in case. You know what- let’s get ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUV and W in on it. Then we can be be extra sure Y will be fine.
In fact, along the lines of give a man a fish/teach a man to fish, why don’t we get more people to learn more Torah so that they can ensure the protection of the Torah on themselves and their family a la Sota 21a, rather than reduce that protection from those that already have it.
In contrast, we are told “not to rely on a miracle,” that saving a life is like saving a world
I think that the definition of Teva is anything that come in the pre-programmed package. Torah is programmed to protect. That is not relying on a miracle, it is a natural affect of Torah. And yes, saving a life is like saving a world since a person is an “olam katan”. However, as the Nefesh HaChaim explains at length, Torah study sustains ALL the worlds.
g_a_w: Anyone has the right to ask, there is free speech. The government also has the right to say no. You can complain about it, but not break the law because of it.
Ok. So then I don’t understand where the point you disagree with me is. Are you saying that since these laws came out requiring secular subjects in the curriculum for funding, Israeli mosdos started breaking the law?
mdd: My personal feelings about that is that we do what we need to do and sometimes Hashem tests us to see how adamant we are about doing the right thing.
As Rav Shach (IIRC) paskened, the one who brings in the funding is the real Rosh Yeshiva.
So you’re saying this is all a big mistake. really Rav Ahron Leib Steinman wants to introduce secular subjects into charedi mosdos, but the people who collect the money are preventing him from doing so?
No, I’m saying that Israeli taxpayers (and their families) should NOT be penalized because the gedolim decided that their followers should not receive a secular education.
So you are saying the government is acting unconstitutionally? I don’t know a lot about law, but I don’t think tax money is held in escrow by the government for the Israeli people. I think the money belongs to the government and they have the right to choose where they put it. Do you think that someone who thinks the Israeli economy needs more governmental funding and he is also being penalized when the government spends it on defense?
Or their brother?
Huh?
It doesn’t sound like you agree with anything I said. Of course if the person already has a parnassah they don’t need to learn anything new. The question was before the parnassah.
So you are saying that charedi paupers (and their families) should be penalized because their gedolim decided that they should not receive a secular education. Or for not finding a parnassah even without the education. Or for not leaving their community once he had the means. Is that correct?
Or maybe you really mean that you are upset at charedi gedolim for putting their public into a position where some need tzedakah. Because you calculated that it is better for 100% of the people to learn 30% less Torah now so that 5% of the people won’t have to shnor later on. And therefor the gedolim are wrong for not teaching secular subjects.
yichusdik: I don’t really understand politics so I have difficulty understanding some of the things that you are saying. But I do have a few comments.
On the one hand, I agree that it is important for the Rabbonim to have complete authority over chareidi yeshivas. That itself may be one of the bigger differences between chareidi society to MO: the chareidi rabbonim are not just rabbinical authorities but rabbinical leaders. In America, for whatever reasons the rabbonim chose to relinquish some of that authority and it seems to me that in return they are generally less respected/central then their E”Y counterparts. Or maybe it was the other way around.
On the other hand, if you don’t think that the larger none-religious Isareli public are not antagonistic towards chareidim, you have either not lived in E”Y or you are not aware of what the media does there. There is true hatred there both in the media (just look at the stories here on YWN, where it is always pointed out) and in the government (which was founded on the principles of cutting Yemenite boys peyos off) and that is not something new.
Lastly, I understand that you disagree with the gedolim who make these decisions. That is your prerogative. But to me it seems that they are trying to maintain a limud-Torah centric society as best as they can. If it means taking money from the government, fine. If the government refuses, they’ll lobby or whatever they need to do. If that doesn’t work, then they’ll make the changes they deem necessary at that time with the goal of keeping the community as close to the ideal as possible. Why does it have to be any more than that?
I think making a mikvah clean will take out half the fun of going.
I have to say, I’ve been to Landau’s mikvah once or twice in the afternoon and it was really clean. But they don’t always let.
zd: I think you are fishing for examples that are really none-issues. Your examples are issues that are part of day to day living and people find ways around them, such as bringing a family or friend to help translate, having community doctors who are cognizant of the communal needs etc.
I don’t understand your second comment. I am saying that advanced math is unnecessary in most cases and for those that need it, they can learn it.
Sam2: If the high schooler can’t make up his mind about what profession he will have, then why not teach it to him once he is mature enough to make that decision? Do you think that having learned the “basics” in high school, he will have enough time to pursue an advanced education before getting married? And if he does have enough time after high school(ie. he gets married a few years later), then he is already serious- so why not give him the necessary courses at that time?
mdd: I agree. Some parts of secular education is needed to make a parnassah. But why teach trigonometry to someone who will become a car salesman? Or geometry to someone who will sell shoes? How will either of them gain through learning biology?
If we were talking about a school that taught specifically the subjects needed to engage in a given field of work, I would think that is a great idea. But I think to teach everything in case some of it is needed is bittul Torah in Yeshivos where they would otherwise be learning gemarah.
yytz: Through learning Torah we can fulfill many other mitzvos in the way of “unishalma parim sfaseinu”. Also, see shaar daled in Nefesh HaChaim. An engineer may save someone’s life after he’s already in danger. Learning Torah can prevent the danger altogether. Also, the sefer Binyan Olam explains that although a person is obligated to stop learning Torah to perform a mitvah sh’i efshi al yedei acheirim (such as saving someone’s life), it would be comparable to buying a lotto to a $50 million dollar lotto but only winning $45 million (my words). It’s still a great mitzvah but its not limud HaTorah.
zahavasdad: It looks like I wasn’t clear. Yes you may need to know some zoology/biology for something like chulin. But my point was that until you are going to learn chulin, you don’t need to know it.
I learned chemistry in high school, I don’t know what the chemical composition of paint thinner is, but I would still be wary of using it to burn something. Those boys acted stupidly, and knowing the chemical formula to glucose would not have changed that.
Unless you are going to write English books on Torah or work in Kiruv, you don’t need to be able to relate Torah to the people who need that.
Again, my point is that the value of these subjects are relative to the person’s actual need of them. When the need arises, the value is high. Before then, they have no value. Like buying a lulav before Pesach.
I just want one person to prove to me how knowing Math and being literate in English (The Lingua-Franca of the world, the lanugage of commerce ) damages the Torah
I think your question is the difference between tahor and kadosh. Math in a vacuum is probably not the issue. Similarly, Math (or biology, astronomy, musical theory, etc.) that is specifically needed for the individual to understand parts of Torah learning might even be a hechser mitzvah for him.
But what about someone whose chelek in Torah is not through understanding the calculations of kiddush levanah? Here is a Yeshivah boy who would otherwise be having class in Talmud but he is now forced to learn geometry. Why is it not bittul Torah for him to learn this subject?
On another level. Why don’t you think that a person whose mind is 95% pure Torah is better than someone whose mind is only 85% Torah and 10% Math. Would you also prefer a diamond that is only 85% pure?
The question is: My purpose is to learn Torah- what will help me do that? Basic addition (for me personally), yes. American History, no. Chemistry, no. Zoology, biology, maybe. English Grammar, no.
I think that is why there are some gedolim of previous generation who did learn specific subjects- to enhance the areas of Torah study they were studying. But not lishem mitzvos yidiyas hamadah.
The reason that I know is what ken zayn said.
But I guess these other ideas make you feel warm and fuzzy inside which must be at least as important.
I really don’t understand where everyone is coming from here.
What happened to kovod haTorah and kovod for an adam gadol? So many people bring examples of gedolim who took the bus. Great. That’s their choice. That doesn’t absolve us of our requirement to protect their kovod and neither does the TSA’s regulations.
It’s simply not mechubadik for a gadol to be strip searched. So the Rebbe’s chassidim tried to prevent it if they could. They couldn’t. Nu. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t try. The kovod of their Rebbe is important to them. As it should be. If they have are able to provide their Rebbe with a private jet that is a big zchus for them to be able to be mechabed an adam gadol and godol baTorah. How is this not immediately obvious???