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charliehall:
You keep bringing how Rambam and Sforno went to university. How about Rashi, Ramban, Ran, Rosh, Ba’al HaTurim, Rashba, Ritva, Mordechai, Rif, Beis Yosef, Rama, Ri Migesh, Rabeinu Tam, Ri, Rabeinu Bechaye, Rabeinu Bachye, Ibn Ezra, Rabeinu Gershom, Meiri, Shita Mekubetzes, Rekanti and the Rokeach to name a few? Did all those Rishonim go to university too?
To the contrary, you will understand and appreciate Chazal’s science more if you know something about Greek science.
I think here is where many of us will diverge in opinions. We do not believe that it Chazal’s ‘science’ requires us to understand greek anything. I’m pretty sure that is part of the point of Chanuka. Also I’ve never heard of Rabbi Lichtenstein or Rabbi Tendler.
However, it should also be pointed out that the YU/Touro/Bar Ilan models have clearly produced gedolim. For example, Rav Schachter and Rav Lichtenstein have undergraduate degrees from YU.
This is called the accident fallacy:
Rabbi Lichtenstein and Rabbi Schachter attended YU
Rabbi Lichtenstein and Rabbi Schachter are gedolim
The YU model clearly produces gedolim.
You have a tendency to overgeneralize. Two people that came out of YU you consider gedolim and that means that the YU model works? How many people come out of YU? How many of them are talmidei chachamim?
How many people come out of Lakewood? How many of them are talmidei chachamim?
I don’t think everyone who comes out of YU is not a talmid chacham. i don’t think everyone who comes our of Lakewood is a talmid chacham. But which model do you honestly think produces more talmidei chachamim?
That being said, I think its important to distinguish between a gadol and a talmid chacham. Very few people in this world would not call Rav Elyashiv a gadol. The same cannot be said for many of the Rabbis you have mentioned who have attended university.
Me and my wife heard a tape from R’ Shimshon Pincus saying that goyishe stories were bad. Specifically he used the example of Goldie Locks and the Three Bears.
I think anyone who normally talks to members of the opposite gender will say ‘its mentchlichkeit’ and those that don’t will say ‘its not tzniyus’.
If you are of the former, then do- as at the very least the other will know what you hold.
If you are of the latter, then don’t- as at the very least the other will know what you hold.
Dating does not change your normative status to each other outside the actual dates. So do whatever you would normally do had you not been dating. It will either be appreciated- or your not both onthe same wavelength.
Not that I am trying to disagree with what you said because I don’t, but I wonder how “eilu v’eilu” applies to their machlokes. Also, the machlokes itself seems weird to me because it seems as they are arguing in the metzius. Either moshiach came or he didn’t.
This gemara is first brought on the amud before (98b). The gemara on the amud before (98a) says that R’ Yehoshua ben Levi even went up to shamayim to ask moshiach when he will come.
I don’t understand how this works out. Did someone leave R’ Hillel out of the loop about the heichal of Moshaich?
Welcome New Member:
eclipse
This is the Coffee Room also known as the cr.I’m sure any of our members will be more than happy to show you around.
These threads are my favorite.
The title of this thread is an oxymoron. Please change it to reflect this objective truth.
oomis;
I think p_b_a was joking. Obviously, there is something deeper going on here since the divine being we call Yitzchok avinu cannot be said to ‘love food’ like I like a nice thick medium rare steak on the grill with a little bit of A1 and a side of fries.
ofcourse:
The Shtaitel mentality of being Sameach b’Chelko, with bread and water and hand-me-downs, is no longer.
I cordially invite you to come visit the Land of Israel. Here you will be able to witness first hand in a number of communities such as geulah, meah shearim, mekor baruch, mattersdorf, unsdorf, kiryat sefer, beitar, sanhedriya, etc. many many MANY individuals- both native born Yerushalmis and born and bred Americans, doing EXACTLY this. I have a friend who is renting an apartment from a landlord who was raised in that same apartment with his 7 siblings. It has ONE BEDROOM the size of your bathroom.
Your statement sounds like the goyim who say the Torah is too hard to keep. Pas b’melach tuchal and sameach b’chelko are not laws of the Torah, but they are also not impossible to keep.
Look, the point that I was trying to make until now and continue to try to make is that there is a strong dichotomy between many of the Rabbis mentioned in this thread and the majority of what we call Charedi gedolim.
The fact is that certain talmidei chachamim of the previous generation held views that were not widely accepted by the rest of the gedolim. While this did not necessarily affect the high regards that they were given as talmidei chachamim it did preclude their acceptance as leaders of the Charedi people.
So you find today that Rav Kook is primarily associated with the charda”l hesder yeshivahs, despite his previously strong relationship with many Charedi leaders. Rav Soloveitchik is generally associated with the modern-Orthodox YU, despite his great-grandfather, grandfather, father, and brothers having been considered among the preeminent leaders of Charedim.
This being so, the views and actions of these talmidei chachamim and those who have held similar to them are irrelevant to chareidim because they are contrary to those that are and have been counted among the leaders of the Charedi public.
I understand that my views here might seem extreme, perhaps because I have been in E”Y for a number of years already and the borders are much stronger here. However, I think for the most part what I have said in this post generally reflects the views of mainstream Charedi Yeshivos such as Mir, Chain Berlin, Lakewood, Ponovezh etc.
I am not the PR officer for these yeshivos though, this is just a reflection of my understanding of the hashkafa I was taught.
Yeah, I think its Rav Feur too.
SJSinNYC
I had already acknowledged that the opening post was not speaking l’halacha and was only asking either hashkafically or from personal feelings. I suggested my feelings on this subject and it seemed to me I was shot by two separate posters. I understood their accusatory posts as a way of aggressively defending their feelings on the subject as I had not said anything besides my own opinion on the topic.
rabbiofberlin:
I think you will find my feelings best understood in light of the last paragraph on that same wikipedia page.
I would argue that calling him “a pioneer of modern orthodoxy” is not that difficult to understand when he himself describes his stance as “faithful adherence to traditional teachings combined with an effective effort to keep in touch with the spirit of progress”.
The fact is that a lot of controversy surrounds the German rabbonim because of their stances. Possibly precisely because they went to university.
It is well known that Germany was a bastion for the enlightenment and some may argue that the rabbonim of the country had to make a horo’as sha’a to keep the remaining Jews frum. But out of necessity or not, the large majority of gedolim were against this.
Incidentally, being the talmid of someone is not like a haskamah for a sefer. I’d point your attention to yoshka as the most extreme proof of that. However there are less extreme examples that I can offer as well.
I smell an out-of-towner.
I don’t understand why everyone keeps saying that “if halacha is not against it- it must be 100% ok!”.
-For one thing, I don’t think the initial question was al pi halacha.
-For another, just because something is allowed according to halacha doesn’t mean it should be done. For instance tzitzis is not required if you don’t have a four cornered garment on, who among us doesn’t go l’fnim mishuras hadin in order to do MORE than is required of us by wearing four cornered garments?
-Lastly (and I’m not saying that this does or does not apply here), there is something called a menuval birshus hatorah. So even if someone follows every single halacha they can still be doing the ‘wrong’ thing.
So let’s put things into perspective here and stop getting defensive every time we talk about something that is not practiced among most charedi communities.
yechezkel89:
It is common knowledge that there is a strong dispute between Rabbi Soloveithchik and many of the Charedi gedolim of the time. So instead of opening up that can, I meant to imply that there were many who disagreed with his hashkafos to begin with.
Similarly zionisim even in its religious incarnation is an ideal that is generally not accepted in the charedi camps. Hence we have Rav Kook who although he was an incredible illuy, when his views on zionism became known many gedolim distanced themselves from him. This explains my statement on Rabbi Herzog.
I am not saying at all, that they were not huge talmidei chachamim. But what I am saying is that because their views diverged in a strong way from the gedolim that I follow, I too have to distance myself from their views.
ruffruff
I did not mean that instead of paying whatever it costs to maintain a dog a person should take on the huge financial responsibility of sending a boy to yeshivah.
What I meant was that instead of wasting money on a dog put that same money towards a good use.
You might argue that dogs are fun etc. To this I offer what Rav Gamliel Rabinowitz of Yerushalayim said to me:
We weren’t put on this world to eat pizza.
If the hashkafa you learned was that we need to isolate ourselves from the goyim and you still understand this to be true, then maybe it is time to move to a frum community.
If your hashkafa is that we need to integrate with society and you are facing conflicting emotions based on ideas that you heard from people who maintain the other hashkafa then you need to iron out your feelings and align them with your hashkafa.
Maybe there’s a problem with your hanachah that there are an equal number of men and women born every year.
Midwest
Horatian satire: “directs wit, exaggeration, and self-deprecating humour toward what it identifies as folly…(Wikipedia)”
I think that is the issue that people are addressing.
AND you have no proof they DID regret their decision
I agree, that’s my point- you cannot bring them as proof that they condoned college later on in life, when they may have regretted it.
in my eyes Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz, Rabbi Noah Weinberg ARE Gedolim>
We will have to agree to disagree on this point then as I am fairly certain that both Rav Kaplan and Rav Weinberg would submit themselves to Rav Elyashiv.
You have no right to say that, if that is my own experience
These are not my own ideas. I was just reiterating ideas brought by TMB in his summary of Rav Moshe’s speech.
re: he Rambam, Seforno, et al.:
First of all, even though the Rambam and Seforno went to university- it would seem they are the minority opinion on this matter.
Second, I do not know who Rabbis Hildeshimer and Herzog are. I tried googling them and found the following:
Rabbi Azriel Hildesheimer- “He is regarded as a pioneering modernizer of Orthodox Judaism in Germany and as a founder of Modern Orthodox Judaism.”
Rabbi Yizchak HaLevi Herzog- “Indeed, his writings helped shaped the attitude of the Religious Zionist Movement toward the State of Israel.”
I am going to plead the fifth on Rabbi Soloveitchik.
This only leaves Rav Shimshon Refael Hirsch.
I think unless a person has a medical condition or a farm there is no reason to own a dog. Better to give tzeddakah to feed a child in yeshivah then a dog.
mikehall:
I think I am making a discrepancy between ‘great rabbis’ and ‘gedolim’. Gedolim are the leaders of our nation, in whose footsteps we yearn to follow and whose guidance has sustained us for thousands of years. You were naming rabbis though, that you were giving as proof that college is a viable option for people.My rebuttal was that you have no proof that they didn’t regret their decisions and would tell someone else not to go.
I agree with you 100% that some people may have to go to college. For instance someone who is meant to be a doctor will have to go to college. However, I think it requires guidance and the understanding that it is a necessary evil- not because school is bad- but because the hashkafos there are tamei u’mitamei.
We do not go to college because “Withought I would never be able to enjoy my lifestyle”.
We go to college because we want to become doctors and do chassadim. Because we want to ensure a Torah eduction for our children and have absolutely no other means of support. Because we ourselves cannot sit and learn all day but are machshiv Torah so much that we want to support those few that can.
mikehall:
you would only disagree because you are interpreting their actions through your values. But there ideals may not have differed from yours later in life and unless you can ask them personally, there is no proof that they never regretted their time in college.
mikehall:
starting a “add the name of every Rabbi that went to college” list might be a silly idea. There are an equal number if not greater number of gedolim(and I would think greater) that did not go to college. I cannot think of a single charedi gadol today that went to college. That doesn’t necessarily mean that there isn’t but that there are only few if any.
People have chips on their shoulder for many things. But the reason is irrelevant. A person who has gavah (or conversely low self-esteem) will manifest is through whatever mediums they have available to them. If it is not yichus it is the size of the chup they were able to grow.
The important thing to remember is that we all have our chesronos that we need to work on. These people with superiority complexes that you do not suffer from may be able to learn b’hasmadah for hours on end, or are mekayem kibud av v’em in a way you can’t even dream of.
All that aside, taking pride in ones family on principle is a very nice thing and is certainly a way to be mekayem kibud av. Knowing your parents brought zchusim into your family from helping the entire klal I imagine would be almost as much of a source of pride as watching your five year old helping his little cousin.
I’d imagine that once you’ve squeezed a watermelon out of a straw, pouring molten wax on sensitive skin is like being tickled with a feather.
Napkin rings.
Devarim 10:12-13
Spells it out pretty clearly. I don’t understand why everyone has to come up with their own opinions.
I think the answer to the question lies in whether your hashkafa is that it is better for Jews to integrate with society or to isolate from society.
I think most of the viewpoints here will reflect each individuals hashkafa regarding this.
mbachur:
This is the same like the din that if you go live in E”Y but go to America for Yom Tov withthe intention of returning back to E”Y then you only keep one day.
Similarly, most of Florida especially Miami is made up of snowbirds and so most of the city would be keeping the same day of Purim as Flatbush. It could be the minhag spread to the people that live in Miami to also keep that day since they are a miyut and decided to take on themselves like the rov because of ‘al tifrosh min hatzibur’.
My surprise would border on heart attack to find out that Rav Chaim Kanievsky knows that a computer even needs to be turned on let alone where the power button is. So I doubt e-mail is an option. But they all take letters as far as I know.
True story:
I had the letter I wanted to send to Rav Chaim in my pocket and I went out to get some envelopes and stamps. I fill out the address at the post office and put on the stamp, then put in my folded letter and give it to them. Walking home I reach into my pocket and pull out…the letter to Rav Chaim. So I go back and send it again. Two weeks later I get a response to my letter…and he returned my shopping list as well.
I know people that use the powder but I never heard of anyone use wax and the thought is making me squeamish so I’m going to just move on
Is that Rebbes of dynasties or Rebbes of classes?
The answer is obvious.
Take for instance Ramot. Until a few years ago Ramot kept regular Purim. However, once there were enough developments between Yerushalayim and Ramot, ramot fell into the Yerushalayim jurisdiction and now keeps Shushan Purim.
So to, as the borders of Flatbush ir haKodesh expanded, they absorbed other nearby boroughs such as Midwood and Kensington.
This also explains why Midwood and Kensington also keep the same day of Purim as Flatbush.
shlomozalman:
I think the Rambam holds that sheidim never existed and were just a moshul for something or other.
I think the issue here is that because the site is calledYeshivah World News it tends to attract more Yeshivish people.
If some of us would go to Tzioni World News (no I don”t think there is such a thing) and start talking about how the Chazon Ish etc. was against the creation of a medinah we would likewise be shot down.
This is similar to that older poster jewishfeminist or something like that. While there may not be anything halachically wrong with being a feminist per se, this site might not be the place to pronounce it out loud.
Self-deprecation aside, you just need to know your audience.
I’m not sure if he still does but there is/was a Dr. on M and something named Dr. (Barry?) Buls (pronounced: byools)who I believe takes it.
I’m with Mod-80 on this one. Since my youth when I freely mixed with beers and whiskeys and what-have-you, I’ve never been able to even smell these drinks without getting nauseous.
Yes, I’m that guy at the kiddush trying to hide in a corner while he makes Kiddush on some chocolate liqueur.
If you see me with my chocolate, please don’t come up to me. I prefer to remain anonymous.
Oh OK. Maybe the one that got deleted is why I thought that.
I’m just wondering. Am I saying bad things? I’ve noticed a number of my posts that don’t seem to be going up that I don’t recognize as being spiteful or anything like that. Am I being unintentionally mean or are you just busier than usual today?
11 people on a rope
One day 10 men decided to get a break from their wives by hanging on a rope under a helicopter
Suddenly, they notice the 11th person…
Do they get off Elul and Nisan for bein hazmanim?
All Yeshivos in E”Y only have the three weeks at the end of Av as far as I know but they have Elul and Nisan off. So if they make up for the lost time with extra Sukos and Pesach, I don’t really see the big deal.
pischei chochmah:
He also said that tehillim is not talmud torah but is a form of davening (because, among other reasons, talmud Torah involoves two mitzvas: knowing & ameilus, neither of which is likely to happen when one says tehillim. With the exception of Mishnayos, that has a mystical power to simply saying the words, all Torah shbaal peh is meaningless without knowing the content.
I’m moderately sure that tehillim is Torah she’bichsav not Torah sheba’al peh and that all Torah she’bichsav falls into the same category that you describe about mishnayos.
Also,I think I’ve heard that tehillim is both- but lacking a source, I have no proof.
Yochie:
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that we probably don’t say “v’shomru bnei Yisroel es HaSHABBOS…” on weekdays because its talking about shabbos. Otherwise, we might need to start saying “vayidaber Moshe es mo’adei…” on weekday maarivs now.
WolfishMusings:
Nice try Velvel but I don’t think Hashem will be sending you to Gehenom for that one.
A) it is only a minhag al pi kabballah that is not practiced by everyone
B) starting from chatzos on Thursday night it doesn’t apply. Nor do I think Motzei Shabbosim count- although I could be wrong there.
Let me know if it works. Maybe I’ll right a book on how to keep kids occupied.