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charliehall:
You are confusing the love that we have always had for Eretz Yisroel with the political ideal that Jews have a homeland…wherever that may be- including Uganda.
cleverjewishpun:
I have difficulty understanding where you are coming from. I know a number of people who went to Litvish/Chassidishe Yeshivos but switched over. I’m not so convinced that things are quite like the way you are describing them.
I’m not a Brisker but we should do a test.
Find out if Briskers would go to Rav Shlomo Zalman for shailas and find out if they would go to R’ Kook for one. My kollel is near geula so it shouldn’t be hard for me to find one.
The difference in my opinion is that Heter Mechira is like opening bottles on Shabbos (also R Shlomo Zalman’s heter)- a big kula but not a radical departure from Halacha. Zionism though, it didn’t start by the frum. We always had a ahava for E”Y but Zionism was a modern creation and you know how some of us feel about that. V’haMaskil Yavin.
Also, what did Reish Lakish ever do to you that he lost his chezkos ne’emanos by you?
He either meant:
‘techina’ an Israeli spread
‘jachnun a Yemenite food
or
‘tachanun’ the prayer that follows Shemnoeh esrei at Shacharis and Mincha except on days that we don’t say tachanun.
Nope, you didn’t.
Haha- This one is great!
Do I really come across so egotistical?
I wasn’t even the one that picked my name!
Been here done this.
<~~~~Hand is raised
mikehall:
On page 18 in Koveitz Maimarim chelek beis from Rav Elchonon Wasserman he quotes the Chofetz Chaim explaining that the GR”A went against Chassidus in order to prevent the Soton from doing it. Meaning he did it to help them.
If something is not your way then it is 100% wrong for every Gadol you quote, one can easily quote another Gadol that holds differently
This is not true. I do not think that there is an inherent problem in wearing a bekitshe as opposed to a frok or vis versa. I do not think that it is wrong to put on shel yad tefillin sitting down.
The truth is that I can’t really continue this conversation without stepping on people’s toes and that’s not my intention here at all. You don’t like that I used the word krum to describe R’ Kook’s zionistic teachings. That’s fine, I can understand that that was disrespectful towards the people who do and I apologize for that. It was not a comment I should have made on a public forum.
I do disagree with you though when you say that ‘zionism is not clear cut’. But that’s my hashkafa.
g_a_w:
That’s an appeal to ridicule right there. These are all small issues; a beketshe or a frok, a a shtreimel or a fedora. You don’t change the type of Jew you call yourself for those things.
Anyway my opinion on Zionism is irrelevant since it doesn’t exist anymore.
In fact I’m pretty sure this topic is a deflection from the original which was whether it is correct to send a child who is sitting and learning to the IDF.
Am I allowed in this thread?
charliehall:
I don’t prescribe to your dichotomy of “orthodox” or “non-orthodox”. If a person keeps Shabbos but not Kosher is he orthodox? If he keeps Shabbos, Kosher and Family Purity but not does not put up mezuzos on his doorways is he orthodox?
Instead there are varying degrees of following the ways of the Torah. There is the Chassidishe, Litvishe, Sefardic, Teimanic- all of these are tried and true ways that virtually no camp will say to another that it is false. All of these are paths in serving Hashem and a person can be in any degree to infinity on one of these paths.
A book can also be somewhere along the path. If it tells a person to keep Shabbos- this is great. If it also says keep kosher- wonderful. But if it says that leather teffilin is the ‘Old Way’, we need to keep pace with society and the future is in plastics- this is a problem. Does that mean that he is wrong about the first two? Absolutely not.
I also urge you to read up on who was involved in making the environment favorable to learning Torah here. The Chazon Ish says that he lost years of his life fighting for Torah values here.
Professional:
Your mistake is in what that responsibility is according to halacha.
mikehall:
You misunderstood the point I was trying to make by redefining your statements. I was trying to show you how views like the ones you espouse lead to problems like those that I brought.
g_a_w:
Back to the original point. I’ll be honest I don’t know much novi so I don’t really know what the whole story is with Yoshiyahu. I’m lucky we did Shabbos last zman because the only thing I know about him is from 56b “kol ha’omer Yoshiyahu chata eino ele ta’ah”. But it was a second seder gemarah and agadita, so I don’t know what it is referring to.
I will admit that the Yerushalmi is referring to ‘guardians’ not an army. Meaning that while there might not be a need for a defensive battalion, an army is needed for offense.
However, there is still a significant difference between those armies and the IDF. Namely, the Sanhedrin and the Urim V’Tumim.
Whether you hold that Israel had a right to forcefully take the country with an army or not, at this point the IDF is primarily a defensive structure.
I will add though, that since the Yerushalmi seems to suggest that the limud haTorah that takes place in a city protects all the emmebrs of the city (even those not learning) it could be that the IDF serves to protect those cities and towns in the country that do not have any lomdim in them.
But even then, what comes out is that taking boys out of the beis medrish to go to the army is having the exact opposite effect of what is intended.
ItcheSrulik:
It doesn’t matter. I don’t know what he wrote about, but there are plenty of other seforim on a wide variety of topics that are 100% kosher for me that I don’t feel deprived enough to have to pick up a sefer that is only 98% kosher.
I like poppa_bar_abba’s way much better. Allow me to quote:
The easiest way is to go the dvar torah thread which is stickied, and find a post by “chofetz chaim”. If you click on his name, it brings you to a search page.
I know that is odd. But you do some odd things also.
This was the funniest thing I have ever seen in the CR. I do it all the time now.
Who was it that had those rhymes with all the advanced math in it? Those were crazy!
mikehall:
So you also recognize that the Israeli government is no better that the American government for the Jews then. So if I wouldn’t send my children to the American army just because I live in America why should I send my children to the Israeli one?
charliehall:
I am familiar with the connotations of the word
R’ Kook was a brilliant Charedi talmid Chochom who became a zionist. We call the Mosad Rav Kook sefarim ‘Kook Books’. They have a sale every year around pesach time on the Rashba Ritva and Ran but it still comes out to a few hundred dollars so I haven’t been able to get them yet.
Nice try in pulling me into a No True Scotsman. Did Rabbi Moshe Meiselman learn in any of the Brisker Yeshivos?
My hashkafa regarding the gedolim aside, I’ll behonest. I’m not really sure where you are coming from. I try to bring sources to the best of my ability from widely accepted seforim.
Would you believe I went to a school called Mizrachi L’Banim for much of my elementary school life?
Owning an airline would probably guarantee you a free ticket or two.
You’re a very organized person aren’t you. I notice you like to compartmentalize everything. Anyway you could be right that this hashkafa is exclusive to E”Y, I’ve been here long enough to pick it up. However, I’ve never met a Brisker who called Rabbi JB Soloveitck ‘The Rav’ and I suspect that this is more because of what I mentioned earlier.
Mod-80 do you remember another thread I made about husbands and over-nourishing wives? I guess I should have taken your words to heart.
Does anyone have the minhag to eat AMaLeK kugels? Apple Meal Lukshin and Kertufel?
Anyway, I think all (kosher) foods have (real) kavanos to them. If you know how to make gematrios you know that almost anything is possible if you know what to look for. I don’t think any food has a kedushah mitzad atzmo. Some as Mod-80 said have more chashivus.
What is true though, is that as a holy people we have the ability to raise food above its mundane state with our kavanos. The sefer Shulchan HaTohor is a well known example of that.
It was explained to me once that every action that we do has its parallels in shamayim in the holiest of places, even going to the bathroom. If we would be able to really integrate into ourselves how much every action we do as Jewish people moves worlds and worlds we would be afraid to lift a pinky not in service to Hashem.
mikehall:
So you are saying:
You support people’s freedom to raise chazir in E”Y so long as they don’t physically harm anyone.
You do not conscribe to the saying kol yisrael areivim zeh lazeh.
You believe that provided they greases the wheels, E”Y shuold have access to our children.
You disagree with the Yerushalmi that I brought earlier.
As to your question. You know, I think America is wrong for instituting the Blue Laws but I have no qualms with taking money from them. The Israeli government is no different.
Charliehall:
AS g_a_w said, yes I mean those hashkafos that are neged the ones that I learn from my Rebbeim.
However I would like to add that there is a difference between R’ Kook, R’ JB Soloveitchik, (don’t know R’ Reines) etc and Rav Aurbach, the Satmer Rav, Rav Elyashiv et al.
The difference is that there was no room for conversation between the former and the latter:
-When R’ Kook’s views became known Rav Hutner distanced himself from Rav Kook.
-On the other hand I heard from a firsthand witness that that after the Satmar Rav left the room that Rav Ahron Kutler was in someone commented that ‘now that the Satmer Rebbe left we can really talk’ to which Rav Ahron said ‘now that the Satmer Rebbe left, there is no one left to talk to’.
-Rav Shach privately agreed with anti-zionists but felt that there was more toeles to making the party.
Over here in E”Y at least the dichotomy between these two camps is quite clear. With the exception of Lubavitchers themselves, anyone who follows the first group does not call themselves chareidi while those in the second do.
Hot as in spicy or hot as in you serve it hot? My grandfather told me in the alterheim his father used to eat it served hot with bread.
Oh, I was using Feif Un’s example of reading secular books with parent’s permission when the yeshivah doesn’t allow it.
always here:
I suspect from your comment that you misunderstand. I did not move here to make a statement or to support settlement. This is not a small town that I live in, its quite large with many tens of thousands of people. We moved here because housing was cheap and its a chareidi environment…just like everyone else in this town.
g_a_w:
I think it would be a better idea to send your child to a yeshivah whose hashkafos you follow. It is very hard for a child to understand when a Rebbe is teaching fire and brimstone against TV and the child’s parents say ‘its ok to watch”. Otherwise I think you will just be undermining the yeshivah’s credibility in the child’s eyes.
Feif un:
I agree with you 100% on this. That is why we have Chinuch Atzmai in E”Y. What I tried to explain before was that I suspect (I never asked anyone) that the Yeshivos had to make a cheshbon:
-If we do not get government funding we will have to close down as parents can already not afford tuition.
-Most other yeshivos if not all are in the same situation as us.
-Having kids read Hucklberry Finn is not as bad as sending them to public school due to lack of yeshivos.
YU is a different case than yeshivos because it is primarily a school for advanced secular studies with what was supposed to be the benefit of a Jewish environment. Yeshivos though are a necessity as without them there would be know learning Torah at all.
mikehall:
Are we talking about the same government that provides funding to brochers so they can learn all day without getting a job???Sounds pretty nice to me…
So what you are saying is, since they provide funding for yeshivos and kollelim that makes them nice? They also let chazir be sold in stores across the country. Do you condone that as well?
What does one thing have to do with the other. The fact that they help support yeshivos does not give them a hand into how we are mechanech our children. Hence Chinuch Atzmai. It does not give them a right to say we demand your children to place them in makomos sakanos. It does not give them a right to force our children to be in a place where they may have to be mechalel Shabbos.
And no I don’t think I should be learning Rav Kook yet since I don’t feel confident that I will be able to filter out the krum parts. For now I have to leave them aside just as the gedolim that I follow left his side.
Sorry I was in a rush when I wrote that post. What I meant to say was that Talmud Torah kneged kulam. Learning Torah has precedence over all the other mitzvos. RaShB”Y and his chevraya didn’t even daven because of their hasmoda b’Torah.
The sefer Binyan Olam brings the TaZ in Y”D 251 S”K 6 that explains that even though there is no mitzvah that stops us from doing hatzolas nefashos but there is a bigger zchus to someone who is not presented witha case of hatzolas nefashos than to someone that is.
So what I meant was that even though we are required to sometimes stop learning to do other mitzvos, that is Hashem’s cheshbon. From our point of view though we need to understand that any mitzvah that is not talmud Torah is not as great as talmud Torah.
I urge everybody who is stable in his derech to pick up this sefer Boney Olam. He has two haskamos one from Rav Chatzkel Levinstein and one from Rav Yehidah Zev Segol both of which praise the sefer and not the mechaber.
Sorry, didn’t realize saying that place is any different than saying Brooklyn. Also there was even a thread about it, So I thought it was OK.
always here:
I live in a chareidi community in the West Bank
I’m afraid to comment on this thread.
Feif un:
I agree with you in that Yeshivos shuold not be teaching twain during secular studies and teaching against it in Jewish studies. But maybe the school is required to do this by law. In which case the yeshiva should be making it very clear to the kids that although it there are problems in reading these books, you would not be able to have a yeshivha education if we took them out of the curriculum and so we have to take the lesser of two evils. Other than that of course I agree with you that yeshivos should not be setting a confusing example.
HaLeivi:
Your second statement is what I was actually aiming at. A child who is not presented with 2 opposing views will be confident when he experiences situations where someone is acting wrong. I am not saying that in some of the cases the rebbeim were wrong, but perhaps if as a child he was more confident in what was wrong and what was right, he would have felt more confident as a child in dismissing the rebbeim instead of Judaism.
EDITED POST
Please do not give out personal information in the CR.
So no one uses Heimish like I do??
Its not high in fat? So what makes it wiggle?
ItcheSrulik:
I’m not denying that their is a metziyus called hishtadlus. Especially by parnassah which these psukim are talking about. Although I think I will disagree on some people here on what can constitute hishtadlus. I did explain though that in the case of learning what the army is doing is not called hishtadlus.
I obviously don’t learn any R’ Kook and I don’t think anything else you wrote was in any way connected to this discussion.
mikehall:
When the government threatens your Yiddishkeit and you can get away with just lying- you do it. And if its a girl- the Chazon Ish already said yaharog v’al yavor.
Sister Bear:
I renewed my passport here before I made aliyah and on place of issue it just says ‘Jerusalem’ too.
I think just the opposite. Instead of teaching that Judaism is not a narrow path we should be teaching the beauty of the path that is Judaism. How much emphasis do Yeshivos place on teaching about how we are the am hanivchar and what the means for each individual? How often do we teach about the importance of dveikus? Do you remember your Rebbeim teaching you about Hashem in a personal, real way?
Feif un: You mention that your parents already approved of the books you were reading that your Yeshivah did not.
MANY MANY parents present their children with mixed messages. “That’s for when you’re in yeshivah”. “Yeshivah says its bad but really its OK”. These things undermine the credibility of the Yeshivah in the child’s eyes and also serve to weaken the child’s stance on things related to yiddishkeit- ‘if my parents said this is ok even though the yeshivah doesn’t maybe that is also not really bad’. How many children come home from Yeshivah where they are taught that TV is bad only to come home and put their feet up on the couch as they enjoy their favorite shows.
In summary: Yeshivos need to make real relationships with Hashem and the beauty of yiddishkeit a priority in yeshivah.
Parents need to provide their children with stable and consistent hashkafic values.
AOM said it right. You need to be pretty confident that your zchusim in the Bank are gonna cover the check you are writing out to get Hashem to communicate with you directly via the goral.
mikehall:
Your being a zionist was not the point. It was your pointing to the army as the source of the victory.
g_a_w:
Please go back the Yerushalmi I quoted earlier and explained to me why an army is necessary. To me the Yerushalmi is suggesting that the soldiers are destroyers and it is ONLY the lomdei Torah that are protecting the city. I am sure you can see why I am drawing these parallels from that Yerushalmi. There is no such thing as ‘the best of both worlds’ when it comes to Torah. Whenever we are engaged in anything that is not Torah – even if it is another mitzvah we are not doing the ideal. It might be what Hashem wants from us, but that is from His perspective. I urge you again to pick up the sefer Binyan Olam. I really feel you especially will understand what its about.
mamashtakah:
First I was going to make a tirade about your second paragraph. Instead I offer the following. Can you go back to the Yerushalmi that I quoted earlier in this thread and explain to me your position in light of the Yerushalmi. Especially I would like you to explain how to understand your comment “What would have happened to all of the scholars if there was no army?” in conjunction to that Yerushalmi.
You are mistaken. Believing that learning Torah itself will protect us from anything is not depending on miracles. Hashem put into the teva of the world that the sun rises during the day, rain comes out of the clouds and learning Torah protects the individual and the klal. This is not a miracle that we are talking about but nature.
And NEVER put your FAITH in the army. This is bfeirush a pasuk.
???-?????????? ??????????? ??????-?????, ??????? ??? ?????????
Oh!
I always use it to mean like family/friendly. As in, “we’re all heimish here you don’t need to type so professionally”.
Profesional:
I live in E”Y on the wrong side of the green line. I have mentioned this in other threads as well.
The Sanctity of Jewish Food:
I am of Polish ancestry on my father’s side so I would like to start of with the word galareta.
-If you spell it ????? it is equal to 247, or ??? because there are deep remazim in this special food.
-Add the kollel and you have ??”? because like the lechem abirim it is the food of Angels.
-Use the kollel osiyos and you have ??-? because we eat it on Shabbos which is when we light 2 candles.
My friends. When we speak about such an important food, we know deep in our hearts that it must hold a special place on our Shabbos tischen. And indeed, even for the Hungarians among us who eat ???? this confidence is well place.
-For ???? with the kollel is in fact the same gematria as
??? ???? ???? ??? with the kollel osiyos.
But we knew this already.
I don’t get it. 14 posts and not a single person thinks that the story was just simply AMAZING???
mamashtakah:
I live in E”Y
Although I still disagree with your rephrasing of mikehall’s sentence, you at least agree that Hashem had something to do with it.
MikeHall:
Let me rephrase.
The Yerushalmi says that Rav Yudin sent Rav Chiya, Rav Ami and Rav Asi to check out the town in E”Y. They get to this one town and can’t find anybody learning Torah. They ask the people of the town, ‘Bring the guards of the city.’ The people of the city bring the guards of the city. They [the Rabbis] say to them, these aren’t the guards of the city- they are the DESTROYERS of the city. So the people of the city ask ‘then who are the guards of the city?’ They answer back ‘The scholars’.
So the Yerushalmi says that actual guards are destroyers and the people who spend their time learning are the guardians. Comes along you who says ‘No I’m happy that there is a draft to the army to build our soldier base, so that we were able to unite Jerusalem’.
Is this accurate?
g_a_w
Come on you know that I’m going to bring Chizkiyahu in here.
As JayMatt suggested asking a sheilos chochom before naming a child is a great idea.
I bought the sefer today and it bring the Mabi”t that holds not to name names from before Avrohom Avinu. (The Ramban and many others argue on this.) Others that say Adam is not a good name. He brings a few names that are mesugal for good things for the child.
He brings from the Chazon Ish that naming after a deceased is good for the deceased but naming from the parshah is good for the child.
This like many aspects of Judaism has its twists and turns and obviously we all want only the very best for our children.
onegoal:
Your IP address is not private. Any site you access has access to your IP. It is not like a home address where the only way someone can find it is by asking your or investigating you. It is more like your face that anyone who is looking at you can see. You cannot say that your hair and eye color is private information. So too unless you hide your IP it is public.
?????? ??????? ?????, ?????? ??? ???-???????[??] ??????
Honestly though, how exactly should I understand your comment in light of the Yerushalmi that I just quoted?
Tefilos and hishtadlus, which is the army, protect your parents who made Aliya still there, they protect your Rebbeim, friends, our brothers and sisters.
The Yerushalmi in Chagigah perek alef halacha zayin suggests an alternate reason for the protection of “your Rebbeim, friends, our brothers and sisters.”
??? ???? ??? ???? ???’ ????? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ???????? ????? ??????… ???? ??? ???…????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ????. ?????? ??? ?????? ????. ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????, ??? ????? ??? ????? ????. ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????????
I for one am not worried about what would happen if no one is drafted.
Mazal Tov! You should have much nachas!
oomis
There is an inyan to hold hands going to the yichud room. The man is supposed to walk slightly pull the woman there. For kinyan reasons.
This is not the same as holding hands in public which is an expression of affection.