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As a frum Jew, and as a psychologist, I find this thread distressing. The Mabul came about due to (non-Jewish) society’s condoning homosexuality. Hashem considers it a toeiva – and you’re defending it? There’s a big difference between honoring the tzelem elokim in every individual regardless of “lifestyle”, and forcing society to honor and accomodate alternative lifestyles at the expense of people with traditional family value, in public place, in the public educational system, etc.
Nature v. nurture is an ongoing scientific question. The brain is far more complex than scientists ever imagined – the more we learn, the more we realize how little we know. Open any basic biopsych text and you’ll see that most physiological processes are orchestrated in multiple areas of the brain – to say that parts of the brain of transgender individuals are different is politically correct but bad science. Also, it’s inconsistent to attribute all gender differences to societal/cultural factors but then purport that LBGT is genetic. I’m sure it’s very challenging for LGBTs who were wired that way (which I suspect is a much smaller percentage of the LBGT community than is being portrayed) but for frum Jews, the Torah defines right and wrong, moral and immoral, even in our 21st century “I’m OK, you’re OK society” politically correct culture.
My point was (I’ll try again, my first post seems to have diappeared):
1) Someone who is Mechallel Shabbos B’farhesya has a different halachik status than someone who is over other aveiros (hilchos tznius, L”H etc.)
2) You can defend Jews who are not shomrei Torah U’mitzvos without making comparisons between them and Yidden who mostly are, but struggle in certain areas – the Avoda of Yitzchok was more difficult than the Avoda of Avraham – and only Hashem knows what goes on in an individual’s heart
“However, one who sins out of ignorance or temptation is in the category of amecha and it is forbidden to speak loshon hora about him” (Chofetz Chaim, A Lesson A day by Rav Shimon Finkelman and Rav Yitzchak Berkowitz, Day 14).
Nearly all (if not all) not-Frum Jews today fall under this category.
Many, many frum Jews do as well, so let’s not point fingers at people who are seemingly lax in hilchos tznius and hilchos lasho hara.
Also, there are specific halachic definitions of: frum, apikores, etc. –
we don’t arbitrarily define these categories. I don’t remember enough on the topic to quote sources but the definition of a frum Jew is based on shmiras shabbos, not on skirt length.
Hmm… Can Clinton admit that she’s a criminal? And will Trump make good on his word when he said he would put her behind bars after he’s elected? Stay tuned.
LOL, Crooked. Seriously, scissors – spare us the moral posturing – Clinton is a criminal – she belongs behind bars. The video revealed NOTHING – Yes, Trump is a menuval, we knew that, so was Bill, but more so. Unfortunately this is how goyim talk and act and these are our pathetic choices for president. I’m questioning the way you express yourself – “all normal, frum, eirliche, sane yidden…” – what a fine way to talk about Yidden you disagree with! FYI, Most normal sane eirliche yidden here in E”Y are voting for Trump – you might want to re-examine your values – insulting Jews with a political perspective that differs from yours speaks volumes as does supporting a sonei yisroel like Clinton.
HUH? and who inteprets the constitution – and when the court has an ovewhelming majority of liberals – that won’t affect religious rights? And what about foreign policy and E”Y, or is that a concern for AMERICAN jews?
Not what you meant -OK, so what exactly was that comment – some sort of rebuttal? We’re talking about the less of two evils – and yes, Clinton will probably win which is great because you Chutznikim will be forced to move to E”Y – I’m no zionist in the political sense just a frum Jew who loves E”Y – maybe if we show we are waiting faithfully for the King in his palace, He’ll finally come
BTW – This is the YESHIVA World news coffee room – I’m sure there are many social liberal chat rooms that promote the rhetoric spewed here. I have friends who met with Clintons – they unsuccessfully petitoned them for the release of Pollard – you may like the Clinton’s but they sure don’t like you (if you’re Jewish).
You should NOT vote for Trump UNLESS:
– you love E”Y and are concerned with the wellfare of its Jewish inhabitants
– you wonder why Clinton got off scott free for a security breach that would have landed anyone else behind bars
– you’re concerned with the influx of 100’s of thousands of moslem immigrants, many of whom prefer sharia to democracy
It is a DISGRACE to compare the closed-door immigration policy during FDR’s presidency, which resulted in the loss of countless of Jewish lives, with limiting immigration of individuals from Islamic countries – Jews have been grateful members and outstanding contributors
in every society that has ever let them in!
Trump for…president! (HRC for a nice long jail sentence)
ZD – I’m not sure you understand the role gedolim play. Furthermore, are you familiar with the day-to-day lives of gedolim that you know for a fact that they don’t listen to the news, because here in E”Y I KNOW that some do (Kol Chai, etc – the frum stations). You can keeep reiterating the same point but that doesn’t make it true, even if you think it’s logical.
Protests are held against the draft as an expression of disagreement with government policies and laws (civil disobedience) – that’s quite different from protesting about the bad behavior of individuals – I don’t get the comparison.
And yes, Satmar will be Satmar – they are who they always have been and Kol Koreiys and protesting will not change them.
This is yeshiva world news – can we on occassion try to be dun chareidim l’kaf zechus?
ZD – the gedolom don’t turn on the radio…the askanim “tell” them.
You’re mistaken – there are Gedolim and Chassidishe rebbes that do listen to radio news. And more importantly, they listen to the voices of the community – to depict our gedolim as naive or uninformed is wrong. Many of the proclamations put out in the name of gedolim are simply lies. The gedolim are our einei haeida – not a mouth piece to issue proclamations. There are plenty of communal issues that as L”UL pointed out the gedolim don’t “speak out” against – the people who commit these acts of sinaas chinum (attacking Chareidi soldiers, dati leumi girls) often don’t have leaders and they aren’t part of the mainstream chareidi/chassidish community even if they look like they are. I think it’s self-understood that we don’t beat up, spit on other Yidden – so what’s there more to say unless you’re mistskingly assuming that these criminals have a mainstream chareidi viewpoint, which they don’t.
The effects of smoking are small cumulative effects, meaning that it’s not “this one cigarette” that results in addiction or that causes lung disease.
Smoking on occassion doesn’t guarantee an addiction but on the other hand it’s difficult to pinpoint, and very ideosyncratic, the exact timing of onset of addiction or lung disease. There are poskim who poskin assur; other poskim don’t (the “minhug” of Chosson cigarettes is still going strong). My point of contention is the OTD labeling.
Unfortunately, many of us have done aveiros, and sometimes even habitually: lashon hara, shmiras einayim, being lax in betching, brachos or hilchos boreir, not properly declaring taxes, and on and on – that doesn’t make us OTD – it means we have a weakness that needs tikun. Unfortunately there are sufficient real OTDers out there, that we don’t want to broaden the parameters of OTD and create self-fulfilling prophecies.
Hey, can we go back to the original thread? Before you vote, please read Arutz Sheva’s “Why I am not Just Saying No to Clinton”. I despise Regan’s attitude toward chareidim but when it comes to politics and E”Y she’s got it exactly right. If you love E”Y, you’ll vote for Trump.
Lilmode ulilamaid – I could not agree with you more. I think people living in Chutz LaAretz have difficulty understanding the nuances of learning in kollel/army service in E”Y especially because they currently have so many more options. My nephews living in America come to E”Y to learn in Chareidi yeshivas for 2,3,4 years while accumulating college credits. They can then go to Touro or other programs to finish their degrees and then go on for an M.A. Our sons in E”Y do not have these options – learning full time is the only option – working even part time will result in being drafted. The army is a spiritually challenging place for Chareidi bochurim, even in Nachal Chareidi – most Chareidi parents in Chutz Laaretz wouldn’t dream of placing their 18(!)-year-old sons in this kind of environment – but this is the only option for any chareidi buchor/avreich that can’t or doesn’t learn full time. The result – no college education, no profession, at best a minimum-wage job, etc. Lest we forget, 85% of Chareidi women work so please do not view Chareidim as parasites – we pay taxes, too. And some of us do value the mesirus nefesh of the chayalim – I’m not sure why someone here proposed that that is hypocritical. We need the Lomdei Torah fully emersed in learning and the hishtadlus of an army. If we could only learn to appreciate each other’s contributions…
Ubiquitin, LOL – did you intentionally miscontrue or simply misunderstand my post:
If someone disagrees with another’s opinion but they do not bring any evidence to support their counter argument, this is equivalent (that means equal) to saying “I disagree because…well, because I disagree” even if you don’t actually use those words – do you get that?
The “workplace violence” comment was in quotes (“”) because I was being facetious – this is what Obama and other liberals call islamic terrorist attacks in order to promote their anti-west, anti-Israel agenda. We should be concerned because these attacks are on the rise and it matters what we call these terrorist attacks because if we call these attacks workplace violence, well, then we should offer yoga classes in the workplace but if it’s Islamic terrorism, then we should probably scrutinize our immigration policies sans trump (did you get the sarcasm or should I explain?)
BTW, I support Israel – I live there and that is why I am voting for Trump (I am not voting for supporting Israel, unless there is such an election) – I was insinuating (do you know what that means?) that you don’t support Israel but I apologize – it was a little judgemental of me.
CH: LOL “Voting for Trump is a chilul Hashem” well, if that is how your daas Torah holds then clearly you should not vote for Trump (did he also paskin that you should vote for Clinton?)
In any event, once you pull the Daas Torah card, the discussion ends, and B”H for that. We get it – you liberals will vote Clinton. She will probably win, and when the results are disasterous we can all laugh at you and say “Told you so”.
” We need a president call radical islam by its name”
why, explain why that is so important?
Perhaps because “workplace violence” is on the rise and its increase is correlated with increases in moslem immigation to the West – It might be helpful to name the problem in order to find solutions –
you are either concerned with immigration policies like Trump is (and unlike Clinton: “Islam is a religion of peace, or Obama’s “Support Illegals” policies”) or…
you are in denial – which one is it?
Ubiquitin – It may make sense to take apart a post point-by-point if you actually have a counterargument to those points but if all you really have to say is “Well, I don’t agree” then just say that and be done with it. And…
either Clinton supports Israel or she doesn’t, and you either care whether she does or you don’t (I vote the latter for both) –
perhaps the difference is that some of us believe the lies that politicians and the media feed us, whereas some of look at the facts, including personal anecdotes of politician’s lives.
If you believe in the delusion that Clinton was being polite in kissing Arafat’s wife and you believe that there was a mistranslation of a blood libel against Israel, then I can certainly take the moral high road in supporting Trump – he doesn’t support radical Islam ot hate Jews – sounds like someone worthy of support to me.
I disagree that frum Yidden confuse politics with religion – I think we’re a bit savvier than that. Imagine – some of us are not voting for Clinton, not because she’s a democrat but because she is an evil corrupt criminal. More importantly, the evidence from the personal lives of our two candidates indicates that Clinton is the bigger anti-semite. I have repeatedly posted asking about the fact that she kissed Arafat’s wife, and about the fact that she refused to enter the home where a menorah was prominently displayed because she saw it as a symbolic affront to the Palestinian cause (these events are documented) – I’m still waiting to hear a counter argument – Any takers, Clinton supporters?
I can’t fathom why anyone would vote a blatant anti-israel anti-semite.
Yes, we all agree – they are both corrupt liars – isn’t that the definition of “politician”? Trump’s immorality doesn’t hold a candle to the the Clinton sordid affairs – doesn’t anyone remember Monica, the perjury, the filth that was on public display?
As far as Trump’s policies regarding refugees – he may be extreme but he’s not off the mark – and he is not going after Jews next – that’s silly – he is completely correct about the dangers involved with islam and islamic immigration – wake up – see what’s going on in Europe, and in the US as well. You are all infidels and many moslems follow their Koran pretty literally. We need a president call radical islam by its name and who will protect the people despite the politically correct climate we live in.
Are you kidding?! Are you actually playing the Israel card to promote clinton? I think we all know how clinton feels about Israel v. the Palestinians – yes, unlike Trump she will be sure to get involved…in helping the Palestinians wipe E”Y off the face of the globe C”VS.
“Noone is as bad as Clinton”
as in potential presidents, not as in Hitler YMS”H is better than Clinton.
Talk about misconstruing someone’s words. The woman is a criminal and anti-semite. But why even bother – the liberal herd will do what it always does – moo.
I heard in a Shiur that denim was originally (early 1900s) the material that the bags for construction materials were made of – workers took empty bags and made clothing from them – it’s considered not mechubadik for bnei milachim – yes, today designer jeans can be majorly expensive. Personally I think we need more focus on penimius and less judging in Klal Yisroel.
Agreed! Thanks for being a voice of sanity in this upsidedown world.
I’m sure subsidized therapy would be very helpful. But how about turning these perpetrators over to the police once they are identified, as opposed to shunting them from school to school where they continue to destroy additional innocent children?
CTLAWYER:
potato – potAHto – you are SOOOO busted.
But my primary concern are the liberal Hashkafos you espouse that are not congruous with torah hashkafos – and your apparent apathy toward Israel.
How do you explain your ideology as a frum Jew?
“I am a member of my town Democratic Party Committee.”
Yes.
“Secretary Clinton is not a Liberal, she is a Centrist who is preaching to Liberal Dems to offset Sen. Sander’s appeal.”
Can you provide evidence to back up this statement? Do you define centrist as anyone “to the right of my philosophy”.
“I remember when it was legal in the USA to refuse employment to Jews and Blacks as well as housing.”
With the incessantly increasing intermarriage rates, this might well be a double-edged sword.
“I am not an Israeli, I do not base my vote solely on potential treatment of the settlements. There are many things higher on my list. It’s a matter of priorities. As someone whose family now stretched nine generations in the USA these priorities are different than yours.”
You are a Jew. Your ONLY priority should be Eretz Yisroel – the King’s palace. Being a 9th generation American doesn’t negate the historical fact that we have sooner or later been expelled from every country we have ever inhabitted. And as mentioned earlier, the flood in Noach’s time, according to some commentaries, was the result of sactioned same-gender relationships – legalization of same gender marriages should concern all Jews.
CTLAWYER:
“I’d rather a female Dem I have personally known since 1970 (when she was attending Yale Law School) than the grandson of a German Protestant immigrant”
“None of my comments have been in support of a particular candidate.”
Busted.
And why the prejudice against immigrants?
Can we please all stand up (figuratively) L’kavod HaTorah and say that the views being expressed here are antithetical to Judaism? Well?
Charliehall – I’d like a straight answer despite the fact that democrats are mostly incapable of doing so – are you saying that a woman who refused to enter a home with a menorah because she feels that jewish symbols are offensive to “palestinians”, a woman who embraced Arafat’s wife spewing viscious modern-day blood libel anti-semitism is NOT an anti-semite? Just a yes or no will do.
And finally, rabbiofberlin, this thread is not about Trump, it’s about who is worse – Clinton is an anti-semite so she is worse than Trump – I can’t begin to fathom why supposedly 1000s of Jews are voting for a criminal, Israel bashing, anti-semite – but I’m hopeful that your data are wrong.
Please do not throw around mental illness diagnosises – it’s offensive. Why don’t you all do a little research? You can start with David Friedman’s Arutz Sheva op-ed and go from there to see where Clinton stands on Israel and Jews at large. Trump has been labeled during this forum as a:
socialist, nationalist socialist, communist, and liberal – how ignorant and ridiculous. In addition, Trump has a frum daughter and pro-Israel advisors. The quality of a good leader is knowing how to select talented people. And Clinton’s advisors? It’s a frightening thought that frum Jews can actually support a blatant anti-semite – I’m done here – there’s no reasonong with self-hating Jews.
Yes, that is true for republicans, but my point was that democrats unfortunately vote for the democratic candidate regardless of how innept, immoral, anti-semitic, or anti-Israel he/she is. Since this thread is about a comparison, I’m wondering why there are no rationales given anywhere here for voting for Clinton. Any takers?
Golfer, I agree with you 100%. Everyone please re-read golfer’s post – it is one of the few coherent ones here. Only people blindly loyal to the democratic party could vote for Clinton – her husband is an embarrassment to humankind and she is a blatant anti-semite. So open your eyes – on second thought, maybe Clinton as prez will be the impetus for American Jewry to move to E”Y.
In the choice between evil and corrupt (clinton) and crude and crazy (trump), I pick crude and crazy. Unless cruz wins but I’m not counting on it.
What’s the discussion exactly? Is Israeli law consitent with halacha? Obviously only very partially. You are all invited to move here and vote in a new frum torah-observant government. Oh, I get it – you’d rather critisize and complain.
Really – All chareidim are focused on being frummer than the next guy and none really care about what Hashem wants? As opposed to, I guess, all MO who aren’t at all concerned with what other people think and are completely
Lishma. Do we have a slight overgeneralization here? I’m sure in all strains of yiddishkeit there is a range in motivation for living a frum life. At the end of the day we are more alike than dissimilar.
I think we are missing the point, zionists and anti-zionists alike. The zionist movement has no impact on the halachik status nor the kedusha of Eretz Yisroel. For those of us who wear tzitzis, stay in a succah as much as possible on succos, etc., living in Eretz Yisroel has the same status (although there are some poskim who hold that it is a chiyuv and not just RZ ones). And please stop with the “Boo hoo – Eretz Yisroel is so secular, the govenrment doesn’t follow halacha” excuse –
Picture this – ALL frum yidden denounce the gashmius and goyishkeit of Chutz La’aretz and move to Eretz Yisroel to await the geulah – what do you think the government would look like then? What kind of nachas ruach would that give Hashem?
As far as danger goes – I lived in NY – here my children can play in the park at night, travel by bus independently – enough excuses – you sound like the meraglim – we need to be very careful about dibbas haaretz
Sounds to me that we have some gilgulim of the Miraglim posting here. According to Rov HaPoskim:
Aliya L’achoma deosn’t apply tothe matzav today (again , Rov HaPoskim, not Satmar)
According to Rov HaPoskim:
living in Eretz Yisroel is a mitzvah b’zman hazeh, and many hold it’s a chiyuv (see R’Teichtal Eim HaBanim for mikoros)
Eretz Yisroel is and always was the most heilige place on earth – frum Yiddin live here for the ruchnius, to show loyalty to Hashem. There is no collective reason not to move to Eretz Yisroel, safety, krum government, or other. Just individual reasons for yechidim with guidance from their daas torah. The rest of us SHOULD be seriously considering moving to Eretz Yisroel.
lovetorah – I LIVE in E”Y and am chareidi/chassidish and 40% of my husband’s salary goes to the krum government (a smaller % goes from my mine). And my main point was:
Satmar DOES take services from the government – you can decide if that’s hypocritical or not
The government is unfortunately krum – think Ohlmert, Duma, the two MKs who just stepped down due to harrassment charges, etc. Which brings me to my next point…
What’s up with you American Chareidim. Why can’t you just move here and help us vote in a government that has torah-dik values? Can we start a new thread called why Americam Chareidim won’t move to Eretz Yisroel? Has this been discussed before? WE NEED YOU HERE!
EVERYONE living in Eretz Yisroel takes from the government – we all rely on the sanitation department, police, security, etc. The government is krum, not zionistic. You, Mamashh, and all those of us who love Eretz Yisroel, who daven for Eretz Yisroel, who are Availei Tzion, who live in Eretz Yirroel, learn Torah here, are true “zionists” – Ki Mitzion Tetzei Totah
How absurd. Comparing the question of allowing migrant muslims into the US with barring entry to Jewish refugees from Nazi war-torn Europe (e.g., the St. Louis) is an apples-elephants comparison. Besides differences in political, ideological, social, economic variables, etc., bear in mind that the 1930’s the was pre-terror, pre 9/11 world. Anyway, if we want to consider the issue from an empirical perspective, meaning what happens when the flow of muslim migrants enters a foreign country, we don’t have to look any further than Europe – and it’s not pretty. Chayecha Kodmin.
Anashim Nechbadim
PLEASE DO YOUR RESEARCH. It doesn’t take a Ph.D. to understand the basics of the scientific method or how to evaluate non-experimental and experimental research studies (although having one does give you an edge). The fundamental principle is this:
Only true experiments can establish a cause-and-effect relationship between variables. Non-experimental research cannot demonstrate a cause- and-effect relationship.
Most of the research conducted investigating the effects and effectiveness of vaccines has been NON-experimental, due to the ethical issue of using a control (comparison) group with non-vaccinated children. Studies that have been conducted using time series designs (non-experimental) definitely challenge the belief (yes, it is a belief) that vaccines are effective in eradicating diseases. The research that investigates the association between vaccines and negative effects (autism, asthma) are correlational – again NON-experimental. The reality is we have along road ahead of us in collecting scientific evidence about the short and long term benefits/risks of tens of doses of chilhhood vaccinations children are receiving. So, let’s be tolerant. For those who vaccinate, according to vaccine theory, your children are immunized and should have very little chance of catching childhood diseases (very little in life is fool-proof). Parents who have chosen not to vaccinate are not irresponsible, rotzchim, etc. It is likely that they have done research and/or asked their daas torah before being poraish from the tzibbur. We need not be afraid to question past medical/ societal practices. For those of you who don’t understand why the vaccine issue isn’t totally 100% beneficial with no risks at all, please ask to see the list of vaccine ingredients and the leaflet describing the risks involved in vaccines during your next visit to the pediatrician. May it be a year of only health for Gans Klal Yisroel.
P.S. Whether the letter is fact or fiction is no excuse for slandering talmidei chachamim