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There is nothing intrinsecally wrong with wearing jeans and blue shirts in a black-and-white community, in fact it may open the path to a more relaxed and accepting atmosphere, BUT, it takes A LOT of guts and enormous strength to do that, especially for a teenager. No doubt if he has been somehow bullied etc. with black-and-white clothing already, if he is seen around with jeans and a laptop is going to get much worse, with rebbeim and teachers and everything, the neighbours, etc etc. Who can withstand such pressure? Some can, but not many. Can this boy? I am not certain, in fact, I doubt.
He seems to be intending to “test the waters” but he will create much more trouble for himself, an amount of trouble I am not sure he has fully evaluated, to the point that (I don’t condone, but unfortunately, it is plausible reality) he might be pushed away, and possibly, worse than checking out a bunch of stupid things on the internet. We can only hope that, leaving him space, he will feel self-confident enough to build himself some outlet (and possibly wear jeans elsewhere, say at college?) while avoiding to stand out too much in your environment, and yet, defending how he stands out from the “average” or “norm” or “community standard” which people must feel he does because he has good reasons to. The third part, you in the family and everyone else who cares for him, should participate in doing. However, the first step for that, is for him to be convinced he does because he has good reasons to. I am not sure this is the case now, in fact he may at this time have the wrong reasons, and there, you and his father need to help.
Allow him some space.
When you saw him, you should have told him the truth: you were worried, you missed him, you went out for a walk in the hope of seeing him “by chance”. Denying the truth and invalidating what he correctly perceived, only undermines trust. There is nothing wrong for a parent in being worried about a child, in fact it’s the contrary which would be repulsive. A child may say, I’d rather you had not come to search for me, or may say, please next time, if I go out, it’s because I wish to be alone; but that’s all. And no bad feelings will arise.
Don’t make a big deal that he smokes from time to time, chances are your own grandfather or great-grandfather smoked. Yes, that was before the health damage from tobacco was known, but everything does damage, even medication we take it when it prevents a worse danger. Watching TV is awful, but a person in the hospital may feel distracted from pain by watching tv and so we encourage. Try to think of his innocuous rebellion that way, after all he has not done anything criminal, not even illegal, and i suspect, not even assur. Thank G-d, but also give a little credit to him, he has free will after all.
Your son believes you want to control him, and actually, his belief is not completely unfounded. Leave him some space, everybody has mood swings, most people have smoked in their life, we are on the internet this very minute, and yet we have not become homeless drug-addicts or criminals. Don’t play a blame game, let him take his responsibilities without running to clean up his mistakes, but don’t invade his space either, be very respectful and don’t lie, and in twenty years he will be asking *you* for advice with his teenage kids. Be hatzlacha.
PS How are your other kids doing? Talk to them, for their sake but also because sometimes siblings have very valuable advice.
zahavasdad, please, tell us the list of places that are run by merit and that hire the best candidates. You may also want to double check with chiloni or nonjewish colleagues who know such institutions first-hand.
far east, I realize what you’re saying, but it does not help to self-inflict further suffering because we received an injustice. People have rebuilt their life from nameless horrors and you state that a bad experience, a hurtful experience, I’ll even say a destructive experience but let us put that in perspective, might G-d forbid hinder someone’s success in life? We all have had troubles of some sort or some others, and successful people did too. He will be successful in whatever endeavours he pursues, as long as he wants to. I am well aware the school wronged him and damaged him, but we are in no position to affect this. It does not help to disempower him further and to further insinuate doubts about himself, no matter how well-intentioned. If he feels capable, empowered and in control, then our self-image and self-confidence has no problem in deciding that a certain yeshiva is too demanding and trying to make the most of it as long as he’s stuck there, and then, apply elsewhere for the next year, without feeling like a failure, without thinking over and over with bitterness against the RY and others who wronged him; a person can be successful in life and can move on from a bad experience, and looking back, he’ll say the school was not suited to him, that’s all.
First of all wow I thank you for your blessings and kind words, may the blesser be blessed many times.
The situation has the potential to turn around, because now your son wants to be in yeshiva, wants the respect of his RY (looks like the respect of his friends is too shallow and that the charm of the novelty is fading away), however the RY, in my opinion correctly, is not lowering the bar. The boy is very smart and has the potential to achieve what is asked from him. I would let him handle everything – he is an adult, remember? He makes his own decisions. It would be very empowering, and I am quite confident that the RY will be impressed too, so will his schoolmates who will then admire him (and make it less likely he search other people to hang around with). I think you have to step back – at least, as far as he is aware of – from getting involved with the school. Remember? A couple of weeks ago he was saying he wanted nothing to do with it. You could also arrange “randomly” for him to meet the teachers who held him in such high esteem and who no doubt will ask questions about how he’s doing now (he does not want to disappoint them), who perhaps might also be available to learn together, or who may have other ideas we have not thought about.
A school is a school is a school! It has to fit a mold. Of course this is less than ideal, it’d be much better if everyone could learn with a rabbi. But when it is not possible, schools exist and we have to make the most of it, as everyone who went to school is well aware. It’s hard to run a school, and there are so many constraints and so many overwhelming problems. Yes, I agree, it’s a system which hurts people and has to be fixed, but we can’t wait for that. You did not “send” your son there, he was happy to, or else, he’d have definitely voiced his opinion to the contrary, as he’s been doing at other times. True, perhaps this particular yeshiva was not best suited to him. But mistakes happen, it’s a fact of life, and certainly parents and teachers make a lot. The only disaster-proof way of never making mistakes is doing nothing at all. Ask your son how he would organize a school. Of course make sure that any feasible suggestions should reach the school board via third-parties, in addition to encouraging him to suggest directly: if even a small change were to be implemented, but possibly even just a word of consideration, might be something your son never forgets.
Thank you for your kind words wow. I am sure everyone here is writing from the heart. I am happy to hear good news. As for your husband’s attitude, I think that your son can learn from that too. Your son wants to be in control and wants to make his own life decisions – which is a good thing, of course – an important part of life is that adults decide for themselves (and their dependants). And different adults see fit to decide different approaches, all of which are to be respected if we want respect for our own choices.
Besides, the world is not completely predictable. We act the same way to hundreds of customers, most of them are satisfied but one walks away and is offended and we can’t even figure out why… we raise children similarly, but one is different…. some students stand out in class and teachers wonder where it comes from, consider their families and conclude it’s incomprehensible…. This is something we all have to face in life, whatever the reason; I know it’s hard for you to focus because you are facing it right now and the hard way, but consider your son will too, when he will have children and even earlier than that.
You should take very great care that this situation does not affect the rest of the family, and notice, that includes you. Take very good care of yourself. Take a break from the situation sometimes. You need all your strength.
I would not focus so much on mitzvot or lack thereof or his observance currently being “less than mehadrin”, because as I said, I think it would be the same if it were a secular family, then he’d seek excuses for avoiding sunday brunch or the baseball game or whatever else. This is one additional reason I believe it is a mistake for you and your husband not to step in and take responsibility. Please, keep in mind he is very vulnerable.
If you feel you are lost, I believe you should go to your rabbi, the one you trust, and talk to him and then do what he says. Nobody, not even a qualified person (and I am not, nor do I know if other CR commenters are) is able to give sensible advice over the internet. Please, don’t rely upon us. I know we are anonymous to each others and the rabbi knows you, and we all, in your position, would rather not. But, we all sometimes have to say embarrassing things to the rabbi (or the doctor, or our spouse, or our parents, or worse it was found out by others), and yours does not even compare to some worse ones we’ve had to share and that I can, unfortunately, think of.
I don’t think it is rebellion, I think it is confusion, which in teenage years of course there is usually some friction with family, but I would not call it rebellion, he is not sure himself of what he wants to do. He rejects your lifestyle (but it seems to me he is committed to judaism, which is a huge blessing) but he has no alternative! Listening to that music is not a lifestyle, it may be something we do on the subway (or we may prefer reading, or whatever) but can not define an identity, no matter how many hours a day is done.
He does not want to daven? Tell him “there is no jew who does every mitzva, there is no jew who does none, so, we are all in the same middle ground”. What you should do, is to enable him to daven and do mitzvot without feeling embarrassed, whenever he wants to (I suspect it accounts for most situations, and possibly to all) so that he can be observant (at least, as much as he wants to) and all that while retaining his self-image that he is independent, adult (he actually is), and different from a surrounding which, for some reasons that so far you don’t know, he feels as oppressive. If it is necessary, let him call himself non-haredi…. no big deal. Yes some fools may say a word or two, if so, proudly introduce to someone else in front of them your non-haredi boy, and they will shut up once for all.
You’re lucky w.o.w. that you did not go through these difficult “growth pains” when you were his age 🙂 most people do, and sure I did. I suspect most rabbis too, would relate, but what do I know, I am no rabbi 🙂 yet, don’t dismiss that a rabbi may have been through the very same experience, possibly his own rabbis and teachers.
Not sure if I can check again before shabbat, either way, shabbat shalom to you and all your family. And to your son’s friends too.
It’s not unusual for a child to rebel a little bit, and in fact, it usually turns out to be healthy. But is this what is happening? From the outside, this is not what I see.
You say he listens to terrible music, with curses and everything. But, he is not really rebellious. He is not standing up and saying: “I’m not interested in a frum lifestyle, which was imposed upon me as long as I was a child, and I am not interested in college either; I think my career is in disco music or in the show business, dirty words included: live with it”. If that were the case, I think supporting such a child would mean a lot, and possibly such a child would remain shomer shabbos and keep kosher and so on, in a secular environment, according to his wishes. But this does not seem to be the case. Plus, your son is a very sweet-hearted child, who feels embarrassed, who as your friend says, deep inside does not care for that music and time-wasting, and who knows why he hangs out with these boys? You assume he is seeking for acceptance, but instead, I suspect he might be *offering* acceptance to those kids. This is a child with a golden heart, and as such, he may be taken advantage of (not necessarily by his friends, who seem to be a little bit disfunctional, but overall, decent people) or simply he may be a victim of unfortunate circumstances. You realize that, due to stupid laws (which, however, exist), he can’t legally have a beer with his friends.
w.o.w. it is impossible to give advice on what you should do, if you should allow your son to hang out with his friends or not, if you should allow him to sleep all day long or not, if you should allow him to use the computer or not, and so on. This, only someone with understanding and wisdom, and with expertise and common sense, and who in addition knows your son very well, can do. But there is also something which I think can be said. You and your husband are in charge and you must be. You sometimes seem to look up to your own confused son for guidance. You appear to believe that he decides and you have to live with his decisions, when it’s the contrary. Also, in response to the suggestion that maybe it’s possible to invite his friend to hang out in your backyard, you opposed a no, reasoning that you are not sure you’d be able to handle them. Yet your son is meeting them often, and in some random public place or private house. Can he handle them alone, at 16 and at a difficult time? Perhaps, but you have to think this out.
I am not saying you should forbid or permit, as I said already. But you need to make a decision – one that you are convinced of, one that you feel you can defend in front of everybody, be your other children, your neighbours, your rabbi, and anyone else, now and in the future – don’t haste to make it, don’t search for a quick fix that does not exist, talk to people you trust, then think about it, then talk to them again. But then, make a decision and stick to it.
What do you mean you can’t force compliance? And what do you mean throw him out of the house? Why would you, and even more, why would he? Does he have a source of income? Does not sound like it, on the contrary it looks like the boy could not even keep his bathroom clean enough and cook for himself and do the laundry, let alone take care of a house, let alone earn money to pay for it. Do you have family members that you can trust? where he could move for a few weeks? a grandfather or an uncle? If so, perhaps it’s not a bad option, but you don’t mention it.
I think the problems of the boy have nothing to do with “off the derech”. I think they would be identical if he had been born in a non religious family and attended public school. He has no real idea of what he wants, except from a vague expectation that problems solve themselves by miracles and that the world is out there at our service. Unfortunately this is not how life and reality is. I do not mean in any way to belittle his pain, which, whatever the source, he is obviously feeling. But it does not help to let that pain destroy his life, and possibly more than his own. Many people have had to suffer the unspeakable and it is possible to rebuild a life from all sorts of shattered past. No doubt your son can do so, but at this time, whatever the reason, he does not want to. I believe you have not considered this – I know, we all wish it would never happen to our loved ones; but think about it the other way, he has loving family to help, and you are in a position to help and make a difference. He has a life in front of him. Picture him in a few years, picture his wife and their children….
However you have not told us a very important part of the story, not even through your eyes. What does *he* says? Is that really, he wants to hang out with his friends and have fun (?) and wants you to support him with money, clean laundry, freshly made bed with pressed bedsheets, awesome food, justifying him in front of his siblings, schoolmates and rabbis, and shutting up the neighbours in case there’s some gossip? Has he said so? You know, you may be misinterpreting him and his attitude. Before assuming something, we need to make sure. He sounds like a sweet boy and not like that. Perhaps a boy who finds it hard to express himself, especially with you, but not someone like that. It’s important to be fair and to hear and listen to his side of the story. Perhaps the only reason he is not discussing with you his hopes and plans for the future, is that he does not dare, or perhaps it is that he is so worried and confused he can’t find a few hours to think clearly, but would do so in a few days as soon as circumstances change. You are in a short-circuit at this time, and so is he. Also his siblings do not seem to be able to reach to him. His friends, I don’t know, they may or may not (and in any case, it’d be your choice to talk to them or not to). But, you have to find someone. Try to think about it, to think about people you know and trust and who can help.
WoW I have to say, it seems to me you and your husband have to take responsibility within this situation. You are the parents, you have to make the decisions. And you have to be considerate of others, starting from your own other children and continuing with the neighbourhood and with those considering a shidduch with your family in the future.
Your son would not approve of you speaking with the rabbi? Do you need his approval? And why being expelled from yeshiva is suddendly such a terrible deterrent? I thought he was not interested in that lifestyle.
I am so sorry w.o.w. to hear of your troubles and your family’s.
I think you need someone to help, someone who can see things from outside and put them in perspective. But first of all, it is crucial to know more.
What is happening and why? I understand he is changing his lifestyle, but he is not even mechalel shabbat, not in public at least anyway. So what is going on? Perhaps the problem simply is that he would like to change his lifestyle (to some undetermined western teenager type, because he does not have anything that passionates him at this time? or does he?) and feels that the lifestyle he desires would be incompatible with observance. Then he needs someone who says that he does not ever have to do something he does not want to, including being mechalel shabbos, and who can give practical ideas and solutions. Is there something else, such as he does not believe in G-d? If so he needs to hear different things, such as that what he does is way more important than what he thinks. I think the most important point, and you should definitely have a rabbi he respects say this, is that – no matter what – he should never feel like a second-class jew. You can have the rabbi show up with some excuse, and if you think it’s better, he can say something like that about an imaginary person, rather than address him directly.
I believe it is very important that you protect your other children, not from his “bad influence” and stupid movies (which are available everytwhere nowadays), but from wrong ideas, such as this attitude being a good way to increase attention and love. Imagine in the future trying that with a spouse. Please, talk to someone who knows your family.