daniela

Hi, Health, apologies for late reply. No law student nor lawyer, funny you should say that, my father used to think I have a talent for that, he insisted I should become one. I don’t. He introduced me to real lawyers since I was a child, which made me evident the difference between my brain and theirs! I chose a completely different path, not in the medical profession either.

I do not think the lady had Alzheimer because she was living in a low-care setting. The very fact that an employee called 911 suggests there is no MD on duty on the site. It also suggests the facility does not routinely asks patients and family to either sign a DNR or express their wish to be resuscitated: with a DNR, assuming 911 is called (it is absurd as you said already, but it may well be called, just to cover their backs and document everything independently), the recording would have been different, with the nurse stating that the patient has a DNR and the document is in her hands and will be shown to EMT upon their arrival.

I agree with you about sanctioning those who, for no reason at all, withhold help. How would you write such a law? It is not easy to implement in practice. Perhaps you remember the debate a few years ago in California.

The policy in USA (and most countries) is that once you call EMS, they take over the care, and one can not cancel a call (i.e. change their mind about no longer having a desire for assistance). So the nurse would have been protected: not only by the “samaritan” provision but also by the fact she would have been “following orders”. She could have argued that she called 911 according to protocol and afterwards they directed her to do so-and-so, which EMS can do even in a doctor’s office (let alone in an assisted living facility), until care is handed over to the emergency dept of a hospital.

I understand, as I have already written, the next available pretext would likely have been used to let her go.

In regards to “duty to act”, California sought to introduce that in the legislation, even for laypeople. This was in response to public opinion pressure, something terrible happened and was in the news for many weeks. It was not done because legal experts advised it would have been very difficult to enforce and would have punished only *unlucky* people among those who couldn’t care less about a fellow human’s life.

If some aggressive lawyers’ office contacts the deceased’s family and they smell the money and sue the nurse for refusing to follow the dispatcher’s orders, if this starts to get too many headlines and the assisted living facility fires her claiming she damaged their public image, it will not be me who sheds tears.

Everyone knows that pious ladies whose father had taught them to read Hebrew would put on Tefillin until a few centuries ago. In the Sefaradi world and in isolated communities one may have found them until relatively recently (a couple of centuries? three?) Shall we deduce from it that the ladies of the wall are just fine and following a mesora R”L? When Moshiach comes, he will give us detailed instructions, for the time being we are taught we follow our fathers, not our grand-grand-grand-grandfathers.

I still do not understand why kitniyot make any difference to a religious Askhenazi who is invited in the home of a religious Sefaradi.

DaasYochid: do I remember correctly about Moshiach doing exactly that, pasken according to Ben Shammai? Yet again, until he shows up, we are not concerned.

The nurse would have been covered by Good Samaritan laws in regard to not being liable for damages of all sorts that arise from her intervention and had she been fired, she could have sued and likely won, but realistically, she would not have been fired at all in connection to the incident, but rather, she would have been let go with some pretext in a few weeks. Which would have been impossible to challenge and also one’s name becomes “known” and one is not offered work, and proving discrimination is next to impossible. Had she done CPR against the employer’s protocol, perhaps she was better off resigning and giving interviews to the media, which would have had good chances to land her a job at a facility with different policies – but likely, not close to home.

I am aware that we would not be required to jeopardize our job, but still it is despicable. A normal person would at the very least feel bad about it. Now let me ask you a question: suppose it hadn’t been a human, suppose it had been a dog. Suppose the dog had choked on something and a trained person can easily get the dog out of trouble; instead the trained person calls a veterinary hospital requesting they send someone, and refuses to help the dog in any way, refuses even to ask a passer-by to help. Can you imagine the outrage? The press? The TV? But let us put aside what people think, suppose it had happened to us – on shabbat and no non-jew in sight – it died right in front of us, of course we let the dog die, but would we not feel at least a tiny bit of sorrow at the dog’s fate which reminds us of (human) mortality?

A 24hr button (not sure how exactly is called) is a timer which beeps an alarm after 24hr it has been operating. Staff can push a button and reset the counter. Or, if nothing is done, the machine shuts itself off after, I think, 6 or 12 more hours. This allows doctors to set up life support measures and if the patient is stabilized but has otherwise bleak prospects, the family and their rabbi can decide not to continue with efforts; if the patient looks like is responding well, he/she can stay on the respirator (or other life-support) as long as necessary. Such a device is available in Jewish hospitals but I don’t think is very common elsewhere. If the problem is unavailability of the device, a normal timer plug can help. If the problem is that staff is not going to accommodate the patient’s and family’s wishes and beliefs, there is no easy solution.

And please give me a break about ethical committees. Even nazis had them (and to their credit, the “program” with regards to handicapped people was shut down pretty quickly when such ethical committees objected). I am not going to rely on ethical committees, what has some chance to work is talking to the staff and doing what is necessary. Sure some people would be all up in arms about violation of regulations and rules, but I am afraid they are the same people who say that the nurse was forced to act like she did, and we have to live with it, or at most, write a complaint letter to the president and to the local congressperson. I don’t accept this. The nurse was not forced! Not even SS were forced! Those who declined to do, were not courtmartialed, were not demoted, were simply transfered to normal army units (oh yes, riskier job than the other one).

Also, please reread, I never said “give a lethal dose of medication”. This may well happen occasionally, but (if discovered) it is sanctioned, and besides, not even Dr Kevorkian did that (he offered a device which allowed the patient to suicide: he did not activate it). In any case that one is a totally different discussion and has to do with murder. I was talking about medical personnel who are uncomfortable with some people’s suffering or supposed suffering – a sedated old person in an ICU does not feel pain, but is difficult to watch and is disturbing, especially for those who share a certain view of life and death – and I was talking about medical personnel who “avoid delaying” the unavoidable, in most cases feeling good about it. By the way, “the unavoidable” is unavoidable for everyone, and no one can say how long they will live nor if we will be healthy or disabled (we can have an accident this very day) but this sobering thought does not seem to cross everyone’s mind. It should.

I use extra-virgin olive oil and peel most fruits and vegetables year-round and I never craved peels or corn oil (which by the way is not very healthy). Back to Pesach, as I am sure your Rabbis taught you, Askhenazim are forbidden to eat kitniyot but may eat food cooked and served in keilim used for kitniyot, in fact, even a grain of rice that should fall in the Askhenazi’s dish is no concern at all (if it’s not dissolved but is still recognizable as a seed, he has to put aside and avoid eating it). In the old world, Askhenazim have been eating in Sefaradi homes for centuries during Pesach, and Sefardim have been eating kitniyot in Askhenazi homes during Pesach for centuries as well. Please explain us why refraining from ***kitniyot*** makes a kitchen more “Askhenazi-friendly”.

“Yes, in some cases where a pt. is suffering the Rov will permit a DNR -in some cases not. The pt’s. desire is Not given that much consideration. Every case has to be judged up individually! That’s why there are Rabbonim that deal specifically with End of Life issues. It’s Not for your LOR to decide these questions!”

Health – I agree – but the point is, a Rabbi and posek may allow a DNR when it is halachically permissible, but will hardly ever approve a DNR unless the patient has made clear his/her wish and intention not to be resuscitated. I have no idea if the patient (I assume a nonjew) signed a DNR when entering the facility, and (if she did) whether that was what she wanted to be done or if she was factually coerced (ie lack of similar facilities with a different policy). This seems to me a relevant point.

If she wanted to be left alone and die peacefully, I can respect that (also, it’s usually less of a problem halachically, because once we start life-support aggressive measures, by the time doctors realize they are futile, they are already in place and respirators outside Jewish hospitals don’t usually have the 24 hours button); but if so, why call emergency services? Why divert essential services who might have been needed elsewhere? Why give grief to the human being who answered the telephone and what did he do to deserve having to stand by impotently while someone was dying, he will keep dreaming and daydreaming this for years, possibly for the rest of his life. The nurse should have held her hand in silence or saying whatever she felt was fitting to the circumstance. Regardless of religion or lack thereof, it seems to me it’s totally disrespectful to stay needlessly on the phone while another human being is dying.

If it was not what the old lady wanted, then it’s not murder, but it surely is despicable. I don’t care to divide the responsibility among the nurse, the facility administration, the government, the voters – it’s despicable. May those people care for each others, and may we and our loved ones never meet them when we are unwell or “simply” very old.

PS Of course I fully realize an employee, if caught, jeopardizes and sometimes loses their job by not “following protocol”. There are many nurses who are unafraid of breach of protocol in regards to (at best) increasing certain drugs’ dosage against medical orders, and as a side effect hastening death.

“You cannot build a society of moochers and expect it to work. Plus, neither the Lakewood Mashgiach, nor yourself, have the right or ability to determine what is a legitimate theological premise and what isn’t.”

*This* is what it really is all about, isn’t it. Not the quinoa and not the corn derivatives. Otherwise you would enjoy not only quinoa and corn, but all kitniyot (aren’t you sefardi? so you are permitted to eat kitniyot, right?) and let everyone else follow their own Rabbi. But the very existance of observant Jews upsets you, and you start with quinoa – and aim at unlearned people, those more likely to be on the internet – and then it turns out chometz gamur is no problem. You don’t even say so in an open manner like the Reforms do, but claiming this is the “halacha”. That’s why some people want all of our children to go in the people’s army, despite the army brass having clearly stated they don’t need or want more people, much less people who request special accommodation.

Avi K you don’t think those people would become jobniks in the IDF at the taxpayer’s expense, at a much higher stipend and even the coffee machine, where they would station all day long, would be paid by the state; would that be better? Why so? And why it’s so difficult to get rid of conscription and move to a volunteer army as all other modern countries, and then no yeshiva or kollel would have to worry about those people being drafted if they are not registered?

Thank you a lot, you and your family should have countless blessing from your baking on Erev Pesach. It is an unforgettable experience, it’s very moving and it’s unfortunate that we are so ignorant it’s unfeasible. I recall being told that 18 minutes is really a spiritual number and a fence against the strict prohibition, that we don’t get chometz gamur at 18 minutes, but that we have to go by the 18min and be careful and as you wrote, in 7-8 minutes (and a lot of sweat) it’s finished, if there are enough people one can do a little bit quicker (6 min or so, if I recall right). As for the salt, I remember asking as a child, it’s clear that old-style salt is wet and thus we never use in Pesach cookies (those we make with flour and egg / oil / honey etc) but modern salt, what is wrong with it, and could we not put it in the oven so we make sure it’s dry? Even non-shmura flour (fit for Pesach) may have a little bit of humidity and we are not concerned. I was told this too is a spiritual concept, and I was told something about not using salt and water to bake (which we may imagine is ok to do in a similar way it is possible to add fruit juice or egg or wine etc. to matza – my grandfather was Sefardi) lest it quickens the process. I can’t remember the details, years later I asked Rabbis and I was told we don’t use salt, not even if it’s completely dried, to bake Pesach cookies; and in regards to matzot and salt, my husband has never heard about it, he was not told is forbidden nor is permissible. Sadly there is no one left to ask, from either families. Thank you again.

Thank you for twisting my words into their exact opposite, thus enhancing the need for a professional English teacher to proofread each one of my posts. I’ll make sure to hire one at the next available opportunity. In the meantime please notice that I meant to say that what happens to us in this world of falsities is partially, but not completely, determined by our moral choices, and it is not at all determined by our preferences e.g. if we have chocolate or vanilla icecream, or whether we choose to be a lawyer, a plumber, or a soldier (all of them honest jobs and all of them necessary to every society). As for our enemies, they already made their (im)moral choice and have decided they are out to murder us G-d forbid, the only doubt is whether they will be successful or whether they will fail, and it is Torah, mitzvot and chessed who determine the outcome, not the IDF budget. Draft the haredim, harass those who do serve in the army (see story in today’s front page of this very website), and watch the country crumple. Mightier enemies did.

Truthsharer, of course you are trying to make a point, you are seeking to suggest the two cases are not different. Let me help you with the differences.

An accident may happen to anyone, and — may it never happen to us or our loved ones, neither as victims nor as drivers — in an accident it is unfortunately possible to hurt another human being. Sometimes severely (especially if we are driving a vehicle much heavier than the other vehicle, or if they are walking or biking). There is always negligence involved in every accident, we are supposed to be driving in such a way that even if someone else makes a mistake or is reckless, we still are able to stop and avoid the accident. Unfortunately, no one of us drives like that, especially not in NYC and any other city, also because if one did, everyone else honks. Thus, a terrible accident R”L may happen to any of us.

That a person recklessly plays with firearms and kills someone, goes to prison, after serving a few years he still drives recklessly and under the influence and gets a citation, a few days later he is again driving someone else’s car (could not he ask the lady to drive?), drives at twice the speed limit in a busy area, a terrible accident happens (and he fled the scene), is not something that might happen to a normal, decent person, whether jewish or not.

If someone suffers or if someone does not suffer, it is not according to our decisions, much less according to the arabs decision. For unfathomable reasons suffering exists, even though we also have a few very understandable reasons that are enumerated and we should try to improve. It is written on Rosh Hashana and sealed on Yom Kippur. What we can decide is whether our suffering will come at the hands of the antisemites or if R”L it will come to happen at the hands of (misguided, sick, evil) fellow Jews. We can also decide if we should be pushed to do aveirot by a fellow Jew and push them to do aveirot, or if we should run away from such situations. I try my hardest to help if I can and if I can’t help I am at least careful not to damage, and I try my hardest not to put stumbling blocks. In the Medinat this is not always easy to achieve.

I fully realize motor vehicle accidents happen and I also fully realize that even gross negligence is not murder. I also fully realize criminals and even murderers are entitled to legal counsel, in fact I remarked I don’t blame him for seeking legal counsel before police arrest him: it can make a big difference and, as akuperma wrote, being experienced of how criminal law works, he is aware of that. However I wonder what happened to the girl you mention (I don’t remember the story) after the terrible accident (may none of us and our loved ones ever get involved), I would think she is now married with children and drives carefully, or perhaps was so shocked she gave up driving altogether. On the contrary that person has already been negligent with a gun and killed someone, was driving under the influence a few days ago, his own mother told reporters she does not want anything to do with. You can’t compare two completely different incidents, especially not in order to make a (questionable) statement of principle.

You think some women have brains? Thank you so very much, I would never have known otherwise. Does that hold also for those of us who dare contradict you?

Thank you a lot twisted pretzel. May I ask you when is it the latest one may batel the wet flour before it becomes chometz. Also, this is a big help as it guarantees we won’t own or benefit in any way, but still there is a problem as it may contaminate. I think if there is no wooden fire, the easiest is throwing in the toilet, pouring bleach or similar, and flushing, then washing everything we used with nonedible detergent, all this well before 18 minutes. One can do very quickly, of course one at a time.

We are not doing, this is just discussion for its own sake. Thank you a lot.

GAW so you are of the opinion that many or most Zionist Israelis consider Torah study a waste of time, even worthless than the empty and unreliable Arab promises? I did not believe things were *that* bad, but you may be right.

I think the focus should not be on the number or percentage of victims in the last 60 years versus those before a significant Zionist presence was established, but rather on the next 20-30 years.

GAW If the Medinat Israel can collect taxes and fees from Israeli and very zionist citizens, employers, corporations, and then trasfer them to the Palestinian Authority e.g. as work taxes towards retirement, even in front of huge and again HUGE debt of such PA + its open involvement into and promotion of terrorist activity and anti-israeli activity, I do not see why this should not be possible for Haredim.

If you bake matza on erev Pesach, your main problem is not the oven, it is the leftovers and everything. You have to get rid of all the wet flour residues, as well as any doubtful that you think are in the oven already but might not be going to cook properly, well before the 18th minute; and “getting rid” in our house (not in a matzo bakery) must be carefully thought out and arranged, also it does take some time. I don’t know how many people are working on it – this is a very important variable. I would advise to practice before Pesach baking matza with the oven or appliance you plan to use. Of course, the hotter the better.

Oh! Now Israel, the jewish motherland (fatherland?), the safe haven of persecuted jews, is compared to hostile countries such as Egypt, Turkey, Syria? By a committed zionist, no less?

The open internet is not the proper place to discuss how citizens (not necessarily jewish) adjust to such legislation. Suffice to say it’s done not very differently than Jewish Israeli citizens who do not wish to be doing military service, and who wish to work, rather than being full-time Bnei Torah.

PS In the middle-eastern democracy, non Jews with a similar plan for their life do not have any problem. Strange democracy, are some people more equal?

mdd, what makes you so angry? We are not Israeli citizens and we do not want to be. You want so badly to draft charedim, go ahead, I believe the country will collapse, but, whatever suits you. As for how to do if we should be drafted, and the USA does not draft since 1972 (the last ones were not sent to combat and not even overseas), we are not asking you for advice.

Chillul Hashem in the eyes of whom? I am becoming really curious. Are the goyim supposed to hate Jews who do not serve in the military? Such hatred does not seem to be arousen in regard to other minorities who refuse military service and that are viewed with sympathy. I don’t recall protests about Baha’i for example, not by israeli nonjews and not by zionists. And are we talking about Israel, or other countries? In most other countries there is not even the shadow of a problem, as military draft does not exist and/or conscience objection is an option.

All sort of religious minorities routinely did and do, among the last people to get in trouble for that in a Western country let me mention Mohammed Ali, that was a LONG time ago. J witnesses – you can ask them something useful, next time they show up with their propaganda material – say that even countries that formally have a strict draft e.g. in Africa, and even under difficult circumstances (wars), usually attempt to intimidate people, but then quietly dismiss. People don’t like to have unmotivated people in their armies, such ideas have the potential to spread. Their only concern is to keep it hush, lest too many people avoid military service, hence the problems e.g. in South Korea where recently some objectors have been jailed (j witnesses object to civil service as well).

May I mention that also in Israel, religious minorities routinely are exempted and no one bats an eyelash? Hmmmmm.

mdd, in the past i.e. since Napoleon made it popular to have draftees instead of professional soldiers and throughout WW1 and beyond, Jews defied those laws, and the penalty was immediate death.

Snowbunny I am so sorry for how you are being treated, and I think you should not argue with those people, and instead pack and leave that place, use the money for your own expenses (accommodation etc), make flight arrangements, and of course ASAP make sure your rabbi in the states, and those who naively donated, become aware of what goes on. I wish you much success in life in all your endeavours, and that very soon you can build a family and be overwhelmed with the happiness you deserve. Those sick and evil people, ignore them and cut them off your life forever.

Zahavasdad I agree with you completely on what you write, but not on it being surprising. I hate to write, but the BT business is a huge business, especially in EY. Beware beware beware, when it’s “only” hurt feelings and some money loss, one should move on with life, and realize it could have been much worse.

Thank you takahmamash, please post recipes, we always need some non-chometz ideas for the last few days before Pesach 🙂

With the wide availability and affordable price of olive oil, I think the interest for certifying peanut oil for Pesach has faded. Do you use it for something in particular, whose taste is diminished by sostitution? As I am sure the question shows, I am not used to cooking with peanut oil.

Sam2 thank you a lot. Actually I heard they also prepared and ate acorn bread all over Europe in bad times and during famines, but that it’s very bitter and the tannines have unpleasant side-effect. Naturally this put me off when I first heard about the native americans acorn bread, but I was told that tannin content varies and is typically lower in american species than in european ones, and most important this is why the acorns must be soaked for weeks in a bucket, sort of like olives. Then they are ground and the flour can be used. I have never eaten, but I am told that it’s not disgusting and not bitter at all, but not very good either. I don’t think I would be very interested in acorn bread year-round and much less on Pesach, but the question is interesting. I think that if anyone was eating acorn bread on Pesach, the situation must have been bad and likely, bad enough that kitniyot were allowed for everyone.

With quinoa I see various problems. First, we need to avoid grain seeds, and that is bad enough but I think by checking carefully is solved. The second and to me much more worrisome is that we have no clue if we have dust which contains chometz and/or grain flour (even worse, because we’d create chometz during Pesach while cooking the quinoa) and the Sefaradi method to check it, is a problem, because with rice or lentils etc. the three checks are good to ensure we only pick the rice seeds and leave any dust behind, but how to do that with tiny quinoa seeds? We have to take a handful and no matter how careful we are, I don’t think this is a reliable check. This problem I think can be overcome only by certified quinoa that has been nowhere near grain or chometz, and it should be certified by someone very trustworthy. At this point for Sefaradim it’s fair enough, but it seems to me it’s not trivially permissible to Askhenazim arguing that it’s new; exactly because it’s new, most people don’t have a minhag of eating it and need to rely on authoritative opinions, but it takes time and it takes consensus. May be we can also consider how long it took from cocoa and coffee becoming known, to them being considered KLP.