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There are often problems with those who used to be Christians; they often have great difficulty leaving the Christian mindset behind them. They just keep their religious experience in a kind of church-like, formal and cold attitude. This is definitely a problem.
I know quite a few people who were megayer, and I assure you, you can see the difference between those who used to be atheists and those who used to be christians within a second.
This thread is really an example of “two Jews, three opinions.” I can only look on and read this threat with a bewildered look on my face while I see the discussion between Joseph and mariner.
Even though I am more inclined to support Joseph here, I think that both of you should show respect to the other. It’s pretty obvious that the two of you hold different opinions (based on different hashkofos); you’ll never agree, just forget it. Your discussion is like a Merkaz HaRavnik and a NKnik discussing religious Zionism: they can talk for another couple of years, but they are just so far apart that they will never get to agree.
Now let’s get back to the topic. Let me assure that you can come to Jerusalem and ask a whole range of rabbonim here, who will tell you that indeed any type of dress and hairstyle other than what is generally accepted and seen here is indeed forbidden. Go ask any motz of the Edah. In America, ask a motz of the CRC, I guess.
just me: there are plenty of ‘really’ frum people out here. Me, for example. Of course most of the more ‘frum’ people aren’t found online all that much, but well – I work in the IT branch and suppose I’ll be there for the rest of my life (though my plans were actually different).
I don’t think Azi made any mistake at all. Well, except that he mentioned his mother (as he himself also said, it would have been better if he had never mentioned that). I don’t blame Azi for any of this. The blame lies with Zalman and a few others, who started calling Azi an ‘apikores’ etc. Some people really need to get a life.
As far as I know, everything that is listed in the first post of this topic by suraschier is absolutely necessary.
And yes, ChanieE (I only read page 1) – unmarried women must indeed keep their hair short, in the way all (Israeli) chareidim of decent level keep it. Go ask some Beis Yaakov girls anywhere around the chareidi areas of Jerusalem on how to keep your hair: they’ll tell you.
Once again: suraschier is completely right. These things are, summarized in a few lines, the absolute and fundamental basic principles of the outward appearance of a Jewish woman.
Zalman (and a few others), I feel that your attacks on Azi are unjustified. He was simply asking a question: “are mesh tichles ok?” – and that is what we should be discussing.
Perhaps it would have been better if Azi hadn’t mentioned the background of the question (ie, that it involves his mother). Just plainly asking “are mesh tichles ok?” should have been enough.
But the way some people here are attacking Azi is completely out of line. Please stop this behavior.
I learned at home for years, at these ages: 8 – 10; 12 – 14; 15 – 16; and at age 18 I separated from ‘official’ learning forever. When I was younger, it was mainly due to health issues; when I was older, it was mainly due to other reasons.
Back then, I wasn’t religious in any way (my family consists of ‘proud’ and convinced atheists).
As for my own children, I would definitely consider homeschooling for them, if Israel would offer that option and my wife would be willing to consider it also. I dislike the hatred against secular learning in the chareidi education system here. How are children who cannot even spell their name in English, nor do they know where the on/off button of a computer is, nor do they know on which continent China is located, ever supposed to make a living for their families?! I want my children to be like me: properly religious – chareidim – but with a knowledge of languages and the outside world. I want them to be able to face the world as proud Jews and be able to provide for their families with dignity and with the proper preparation.
All day now we say calls from the rabbonim for tefilos harabim for the economic situation. The Edah HaChareidis calls for it almost every week now – the horrible economic situation which is causing huge distress to so many families. They call for tefilos by the children! Well, wake up – the children’s davening isn’t going to be the solution. The solution is, go to school (ie, secular studies) and find a properly job.
That means having to learn foreign languages, computers, having to use the internet, being in contact with the other sex and with less religious or completely secular people, yes.
Some may take another 10 years to get to this realization and some would rather let their children beg for tzedokoh, I guess, but I prefer to face truth the way it is and deal with it properly.
In many other countries it is fully acceptable and normal for chareidi children to have a secular education also. For example, in the Amsterdam cheder / yeshiva / bais yaakov (a single, of course separated institution for all children from age 4 to age 18), they learn from the early morning until the late afternoon and learn *both* the full state-required secular learning program as well as limudei kodesh!
I hope Burich’s reply was intended to be sarcastic, with intentional mistakes in it. If not, I don’t know whether to laugh or to cry.
As for me, English isn’t my native language. In fact, I have never been in any English-speaking country.