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Rabbi Akiva still intended that murderers would be indirectly killed by locking them away and starving them before giving them barley that would expand their stomach and kill them. Thus, there would be a deterrent against murder. In no way did R’ Akiva mean that there should be no deterrent against murder.
“But what about all those guys who were always considered so smart in their yeshiva but are now not needed anymore?”
I would imagine that if they are learning Torah lishma they would not care about others no longer being dependent on their knowledge and know-how and take pleasure in the fact that they are being osek in talmud Torah without external rewards. Perhaps this will make their learning all the more meaningful. What else can we do, ban the smart phone apps and yutorah.org?
The main difference is that college is meant to achieve cold hard results. The Ivy League colleges are in theory going to produce better results. They will produce better doctors to heal people and better engineers to build buildings. That is why the term Ivy League is appropriate. The point of a yeshiva is not to produce cold hard results. It is meant to be mekayim a mitzvah. It is meant to allow people to fulfill their tafkid in life and achieve a personal relationship with Hashem.
“L’fum Tzara Agra is not limited to Torah, but rather applies to all aspects of life, including a non-Jew.”
No it doesn’t. In the eyes of secular society it has no or little bearing on people in secular universities.
No one is buying it “Talmud”, I think everyone is maskim this is a pointless post that is indicative of geiva. What good can possibly come from this? All you are going to do is cause some young bochrim to either feel bad about staying at their “yeshiva for stupid people” or leave it and try to get into an “exclusive” one for no reason whatsoever.
talmud: I think you are comparing what the goyim call IV League colleges with our yeshivos. I think that is unwise. A high level of learning in yeshiva is learning Torah lishma- sincerity of heart is the ikar. For Limud chol- a high level of learning is how smart you are. I think you are confusing “cream of the crop” with exclusivity and natural intelligence. Secular colleges have no concept of l’fum tzara agra. In yeshiva, the cream of the crop are those that try hardest. Are there different levels? Yes of course but that is not the ikar. Yes, there is a yeshiva near me that accepts only those that can learn on a certain level. But everyone knows that many of the kids there are only book smart and they go to college parties at night. That’s why you can’t compare yeshiva to college.
Are you in an exclusive yeshiva “Talmud”? Are you the cream of the crop?
PS: Everyone knows that the exclusive yeshiva I am referring to gives preferential treatment to people if they are rich or if their father has status in the community. I know this because I see this happen in my yeshiva at least several times a year. A yeshiva like Shor Yoshuv on the other hand is well known and respected for accepting most people while maintaining their standards. It is not one or the other.
Get the Sansa Clip plus (I like it better than the zip). You can get the 4GB version for 40 bucks at B & H. It’s tiny and can clip onto anything. It also has an expandable memory SD Card slot so you can put shas on there. It even has a voice recorder so you can clip it onto your belt and record shiurim.
You can put the files you want to listen to in the audio books folder (even if they are in regular mp3 format) and then when you play them you will have the option to listen to the shiurim at slower, original or faster speeds.
Health:
Oh, I know how Halacha views the system and that’s why I said -“That’s nice -So what?”
“I know Halacha and our Court system probably better than you.
Save your Mercy for this girl for s/o that deserves it.
Her parents failed on the job and they probably by now realize it – so they should help her out financially and anyway they can.”
One may not accept an akkum (gentile) as judge. The Shach immediately qualifies this halacha.
One may not be mekabel (accept) and indeed kabala does not help, is the institution of Arkhaoth. The institution of gentile courts, the institution of gentile law, the acceptance of the gentile judicial system is something we cannot accept. The acceptance of the system of Arkhaoth is pure issur, and hence making a condition to contravene the Torah will be of no avail, because with issurim, obviously, his condition has no validity.
This may be the meaning of a seemingly strange equation posited by R’ Yosef B’khor Shor who says the following:
“Our Rabbis interpreted be judged ‘before them’ and not ‘before the judges of the gentiles.’ For just as it is written ‘from amongst your brothers you shall appoint to yourself a King,’ (Deut. 17:15) likewise the Torah warns not to appoint a gentile judge on Israel.”
In other words, the halacha puts the stress on not accepting the institution of nochrim (non-Jews). Whether we deal with political institutions or judicial institutions – Arkhaoth – it is the institution of Nochrim that we may not accept upon ourselves.
I took that from R”Simcha Krauss. This is relevant because you are the one arguing that the secular court has the moral authority to do whatever they want. I am not trying to embarrass you but please see how foolish you are being. Every new statement you make like “I know more halacha and about the secular courts than you do” or “what the judge did is just like ones father hitting him” simply makes you look uneducated both in regard to halacha & hashkafa. I am not trying to embarrass you and sorry if I did.
Health: I am just going to let you continue talking……
Gamanit: “I don’t know how many of you realized this though- that wasn’t a regular courtroom setting. She was wearing a prisoners uniform and another girl was waiting in line behind her.”
Yes, the reason she was wearing a uniform is because it was only a bond hearing. The point of a bond hearing is typiclly to tell if the defendant is a flight risk and how by what means the money will be obtained. In FL bond hearings are held within 24 hrs of the arrest.
Health: “That’s nice -So what?”
I was explaining how halacha views the secular court system. I think my point was faily obvious. I am sorry you did not understand it.
“Her being rude to the system is Ok. This is shown by demonstrating in front of State legislators or in front of Congress.”
What are you talking about? She is a teenager without a penny to her name. The more I read your statements the less I understand them. Please open your eyes to halacha and the reality of our secular courts.
“Teaching starts before the kids lose control, but afterwards the State steps in. My kids would never act like this to require such punishment!
If your kids do -then s/o has to teach them and this is what this Judge did.”
So now you are saying the judge WAS in fact teaching HER personally to have respect.
But you then agreed with apushatayid who said: “The judge is not responsible to teach the girl respect.”
Respectfully, please realize your logical inaccuracy.
“but afterwards the State steps in.” You make this statement as if it is chok and mishpat. My point is that it is not chok and mishpat.
In fact, a major posek in eretz yisroel Rov Yitzchak Berkowitz tells us it is assur for a Jew to take another Jew to a secular court or have another Jew sent to jail unless there is a real threat of future serious danger. Even then there is a warning required and only if no beis din can handle it. It is not mutar to take “revenge” on someone by bringing them to a secular court if they are no longer a danger. This applies to non-Jews as well if you know they will be hurt or tortured in immoral and unjust courts. You cannot cause harm to another human being in this way.
The secular court system has no inherent legal authority. It has force- simple as that. If someone, Jew or Gentile, respects that system it is up to them. I see no reason why it would be IMMORAL to show a lack of respect to a court system that took away your liberty when you felt they did not have a right to take away that liberty. Do I believe the court system is often corrupt- yes, I do based on my intimate knowledge of it. Do I think what that judge did was immoral? Yes I do.
Health: We live in a Dor of “Chutzpa Yasgi” even with Yidden -the Judge taught a lesson”
Excuse me but you were clearly saying the issue is a derech eretz problem in our society.
Therefore, this statement “The judge is not responsible to teach the girl respect. Her parents are. His job is to preserve the dignity and decorum of the courtroom.” in response to my statement “”You think what the judge did causes sincere respect?” is illogical.
apushatayid: “Please correct me if I misunderstand you.”
I am not going to continue a dialog with you because you accused me on being high on Xanax which shows a lack of basic derech eretz. If someone is rude- all you have to do is ignore them. I don’t know how old you are and I don’t know what yeshiva you go to or if you even attend a yeshiva. But I would bet if you did you would never say a comment like that to someone if people knew who you were behind that computer screen.
Health: So you would teach your child a lesson in having respect by locking her up for 3 months in a small cell with complete strangers and take away 50 weeks of her salary at $200 a week and force her to sell her jewelry to go free?
This is chinuch to you?
You are confusing respect with pure fear and terror of people who have the ability to psychologically torture you and ruin your life. You think what the judge did causes sincere respect?
I agree with you that it is not the judges fault that this is what the constitution calls for (separation of church and state) but that has nothing to do with whether they are entitled to respect due to their position when their position (the American legal system) does not respect Torah and is inherently corrupt. Just because it is not their fault does not entitle them to respect.
Of course being the wife of a Rabbi does not make you rebbetzin. Generally only the wife of a public acting Rov of a community and whatnot is called rebetzin and her husband is called Rabbi. Like we have just seen in another post, calling people “Rabbi” is up to the individual person and many forms of smicha are not accepted/respected by everyone.
oomis: I completely disagree with you. She only cursed at him after he doubled her bail. Derech eretz? For what? Why are secular courts necessarily DESERVING of derech eretz besides the fact that they have people with guns? Do you have any idea how corrupt the court system is?
“And the law is the law. Even when you think it is frivolous and not in keeping with our own Halacha.”
Fasle, our halacha determines the framework that the umos haolam are OBLIGATED to follow. “dinei demalchusa…mishum darchei shalom” is basically “they have guns and we don’t so let’s not get killed.”
The basic concept of any court system the goyim are supposed to create is to not favor the rich over the poor (or poor over the rich). Do you have any idea how much benefits the rich have in our “modern and civilized” court system when they can pay for an expensive lawyer? Certainly without a doubt, I would not want someone who is osek in Torah and mitzvos to go to jail for such a reason and not be able to keep shabbos, learn and daven properly.
They are by zero means being osek in avodas Hashem. Xanax is assur but public displays of homosexuality and putting up billboards promoting atheism in the middle of Brooklyn is perfectly ok? Imagine if someone kidnapped you and put you in their basement for 30 days until you payed them 50 weeks worth of your pay because you said “adios” and had Xanax. How would you feel?
Persoanlly, I agree with popa… “I suppose I can’t convince you all, but I think this issue goes straight back to just about everything we discuss here about kids and chinuch. It is bizarre that this little kid is going to jail for doing no harm, and all the reaction society has is “look at that funny video; I bet she learned her lesson good.”
Don’t get me wrong I cannot stand rude girls like her but that does not give people the right to kidnap her and demand ransom money.
Mainly though, this is not about what we personally feel. The point I am trying to make is what halacha calls for.
apushatayid “thanks for the laugh”
How is any of this funny?
“NEVER, and I mean NEVER EVER mouth off to a judge.
The judge is 100% right.
Stupid dumb girl.”
“She needs her mouth washed out with soap.
Nerve to mouth off to a judge like that.”
I thought this was a frum environment? What is with all the nivel peh? Especially when you are referring to “mouthing off”.
It is true I am very thankful to live in these United States with all our liberties and we are surrounded by mostly good people- both Jewish and non-Jewish alike.
However, included in the sheva mitzvos bnei noach is 1) against the judge discriminating against the litigant because he is a sinner. 2) against the wanton miscarriage of justice by the court. 3) against incrimination by circumstantial evidence. 4) against punishing for a crime committed under duress. 5) ensure the enforcemnet of the other 6 of the sheva mitzvos.
Our secular courts today DO NOT punish against avodah zara and therefor the judge is perhaps not serving as an “halachic” judge who demands respect in the first place.
People say “you better show the judge respect”. Is there a reason to show a judge respect other than the fact that there are a lot of guys with guns listening to him and will destroy your life if you don’t?
Would the same people be saying that about a judge in Nazi Germany? That one should show him respect? What about a judge that is an atheist or supports gay marriage? Do they deserve respect as well simply because there are guys with guns following his orders?
Because she was a little disrespectful/lightheaded in court the judge doubled her bail which could essentially destroy her life if she doesn’t have the money. Because she perceived her ability to survive as threatened she cursed at the judge instinctively. He then took away her freedom for an entire month. This all happened in the first place because of a non-violent crime. A Jewish dayan in the sanhendrin was obligated to have children of his own because he needed to have rachamim. Where was the rachamim here? Where was the warning? How come he did not first tell her “you need to respect my position and if you don’t I will be forced to double your bail to uphold the dignity of the court”. He never warned her of any of this. That aside, one must show a judge who is doing avodas Hashem the utmost level of respect and to not do so should be punished. Is a judge who is serving in an arguably corrupt court system that is God-less and does not punish against homosexuality or even avodah zara deserving of such respect? I think not.
YehudahTzvi: I’m not sure of what you mean but you do not need two kosher eidim to know if someone is a Jew or not (unlike Kohanim). So to compare the two is of no use. The site you mentioned only posts various audio recordings from poskim and sources from the hebrew books website so I’m not sure why someone would say that- do you know who? It is true that we do not have actual smicha today, everyone knows that but I do not know how that relates to this conversation.