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On the post right above, I agree.
<block quote>DQB, I don’t understand your comparison of women in videos produced by frum mosdos, where there are strict standards of tznius, and secular media, where part of the selling point is the opposite.</block quote>
I was disagreeing with you DY on that you think anyone watching a program is automatically considered m’stachel at what they are watching. If that is true, then no one can watch a video with a woman in it even if dressed tzniusly. Because they would being m’stachel.
I totally agree that many if not most movies and TV shows (even one’s for younger audiences) have arayos as purposeful part of their message.
I was just pointing out that perhaps a situation that has as a secondary (or better yet a total after thought) of arayos perhaps would not be for sure assur. Ie, one can go to the city to eat at a restaurant even though he will be assailed with signs that have inappropriate images. This is assuming people need relaxing outlets and not everyone has a totally kosher option. It obviously is a b’evieved situation. It could be that sports or other G, PG rated material though containing inappropriate are also not for sure assur m’ikar hadin. This is for people who are not holding obvlously do more prodcuive activities.
Joseph – I completely agree with you. I was talking in a hypothetical situation. Not saying for sure that it would apply (though I think the hypothetical I discussed has some real life difference.)
DY – I didn’t see your question. In truth, it is in fact you that really hadn’t answered as you said that watching something is the equivalent of being m’stachel (therefore anything that comes on screen one is staring at). I don’t think the poskim would discuss as, Joseph points, out it’s usually not a practical situation (obviously it is not ideal). No one discussed like R’ Moshe before (the heter to put oneself for parnassa in a situation where they will see inappropriate images), because such inappropriate situations in going to work were likely not relevant in time’s past (or as much so). All the more so nowadays.
If the least nafka mina could be the many many who watch videos where there are women in them – even though they are ‘staring’ at the screen (again even ‘frum’ films). All these people are wrong? All the Rabbanim who have Yeshivas who have women on their videos – they are all doing wrong. Again, I don’t want to sound like I support. But, academically, I think there is a limud z’chus. I think as Rav Ovadiah I saw sighted equivocates women on screen to in person regard ervahs – it could l’kula that it is similar to Reb Moshe (ie that women on screen or no worse than in person). People need something. They are lacking what to do, and it bothers them. They (again excluding those who do) don’t want to see inappropriate things – they just want to be entertained. Just like when they go to the zoo and they see someone dressed like an animal – they need to look away. Perhaps that is their reasoning that if one is staring at one thing and agav another pops up – that new things (if an ervah) doesn’t automatically make one go against “achrei einechum”
DQB
Savings accounts are fine (as an aside they don’t make any money). I would not do anything. Leave it alone. In 5 years, when you have $5,000 then maybe – maybe the number will compound with raises etc iy’H.
Iy”H when you get married, you might need the money – down payment on an apartment etc. No safe investment is returning much for a $1,000. Rather keep it in case you need and start building up your savings. Maybe with your savings and future husband’s savings you can make a solid investment. As PAA inferred – invest in property. It’s the safest investment. But perhaps not in super inflated frum (or non-frum) areas.
DQB
I disagree, DY. Though I am not claiming I am correct, but my thoughts would not apply to all cases.
The classic ??????? is Joe sees a women and stares at her due to her beauty (see the Rambam.)
If Joe is staring at a screen to watch the Jets (see people when they watch a screen it is ??????? mamish) and then a model comes on to tell him about the latest Potato Kugel from Pomengranate – is that the same? He didn’t want to stare at her – in fact, Joe is a religious guy after a moment, he’ll iy’H immediately turn away and try to take the said thought out of his mind. Mind you, it’ll cause damage – but same with going to work in the city – but its still muttar and not only that if one needs the parnassa – it is required. If one needs to relax and there are only activities that have women around improperly dressed (example the kids are in the house and freaking out and need to get out in the summer – everywhere there’s something). Perhaps (again I am asking academically not trying to prove so) it is allowed to go out to the Bronx Zoo on Chol Ha’Moed Pesach. Efshar.
It is better to work in a frum environment. Agreed. But it’s not assur to not do so. It could be that if there is no viable Kosher entertainment, the same would apply (again assuming the video is not l’shem tznus [see sports game] and assuming that there is a need for relaxation). One watches their son’s chasuna video it’s not l’shem tznus – agav they see something, it’s not a good thing but it doesn’t make the action assuer (perhaps). Same with someone who is watching an action movie to see the special effects not to see the actress in a revealing situation.
I think its a stretch to say Joe is in Rambam’s category. Do you see my distinction?
DY, great point. But there has to be some distinction if one is being ????? to a davar reshus (looking at a sports game on TV achveis) and agav a cheerleader pops up (even if let’s say there is a rov chance such will happen). Of course at that point one is being ????? an ervah – of course trying to look away immediately.
A reason to say that there is a distinction is purely anecdotal.
I do note that according to your one can’t watch a chasuna video that contains women nor many frum yeshiva videos (ie like a Yeshiva Ketana that includes the female teachers teaching or a honoree and his wife talking) as one is staring at the video (even if everyone is tznius -it’s still assur if one says its ?????.)
Any thoughts?
Just to throw a wrench in for fun. [Though my sentiments are with DY]
What is the difference DY in going to a zoo or such that one is certainly going to see inappropriately dressed women vs. going to a movie where is certainly going to see inappropriately dressed women?
Let’s assume both situations are not intended to see the women but to relax and enjoy the non-inappropriate aspects?
Again, I am not a movie supporter (see way back in the thread) but want to ask.
R’ Moshe is matir going to work or doing things we need to do even if one will see inappropriately dressed women. If one wants to say that the need to have a relaxing outlet is a thing one “must do” [again such assuming that is a must] then of course doing it l’shem tznus is assur – but what’s the difference of a movie with going to Central Park?
DQB
????? – I am not holding in Orchos Tzadikim (unfortunately) but I think it means in his days ie the one who is believing. Ie he will bring salvation in his days and the building of Jerusalem/Temple in his days.
Am I missing something?
Good idea, JT.
Let’s get another early one down –
it’s an obligation to give Ma’os Chittim – money for poor to pay for Pesach necessities. (also in Siman 429 in the Rema)
Nice Thread. Joseph does seem like a shtickle troll.
1- DY on the Seder HaYom – many good sources by all cited, but that was particularly interesting. It does seem that the pashut p’shat is held by many Kabbalists. See the Kaf HaChayim brings the Sefer HaKavonos. But the Arizal (cited by Sefer Yesod Shoresh v’ Avodah) says not literally – even though he cites this from a Be’er Heitev that is not in our S’A.
2- I am not one to question the Aruch HaShulchan’s question on the S’A (and the many Talmedei Chachamim on the thread ;-)) but to me it is not a kashya. The S’A is a synopsis of the Bais Yosef, but it also can be m’ramez. The Tur brings the lashon shikar. The S’A davka CHANGES back to l’vsumei. This is his maskana which the Archos Chayim stated – l’vsemei not shikar. This is defined by drinking more than usual. [See Pri Chadash that we are discussing more than usually drunk by Yom Tov or another time one does drink]. This to me is only a minimum not davka a little more. That is why the Rema says “yesh omrim”. The S’A is stating the din is l’vesumei drink more than usual until but not including being shikar (see the Bach) – the Rema says no just more than usual (ie to a minimum) but not more – then go to sleep. Even though it is not a real fulfillment even to the Rambam who seems to be saying one has to drink enough that it causes sleep – as the Gra and others cited stated from Ravyah “its a mitzvah b’alma not an obligation”. This would not the derech in a normal situation but because yiddishkeit frowns on drunkedness – the Rema & M’B are makel.
3- On just wine. I also enjoyed DY’s refutation of the Radvaz being proof specifically by wine – however it does seem clear its ideal to drink wine.
Relatedly, I thought of p’shat in Rashi before Purim that I would like to hear if the CR agrees. Rashi has two comments on the gemara of Rava – both defining the word l’vsumei. First by the chayav inush l’vsemei (Rashi – get drunk with wine). Then by the word v’avasum (sp? – referring to when Rabbah and R’ Zeirah got drunk – Rashi defines this time just they got drunk). Why does Rashi have to repeat himself? He already defined the word. I think you could learn p’shat like so. “With wine” is not a what statement but a how statement. Rashi is saying it is the type of drunkenness that one associates with wine, not more harder beverages. Not that you have to drink wine. But the gemara says l’vsumei to limit the drinking to the parameters of drunkenness with wine not total wasted-ness that is associated with harder beverages. O, the story – that was real drunkenness – therefore the poor conclusion – therefore Rashi just states shikar. This could fit with Rabbein Efrayim that (see the Bach) still holds by the din but not the part of “ad d’lo yadah”. Or Rashi is stating ad d’lo yadah is shikar mamish [that’s the story] but within the parameters of Rava. One has to get drunk, Rashi explains like one does by drinking some wine, until the point they reach real drunkenness. This makes senses as it wouldn’t seem that l’vsumei means one has to get drunk mamish… if he’s already drunk like a real shikar – what’s the until he doesn’t know referring to – a total shikar doesn’t know. Rather it must be a lighter drunkenness to shtark drunkenness.
I wonder if anyone knows of someone who asked on Rashi like so, and how they answered.
You have a seudah Purim night
not a Purim Seudah Purim Night
because a seudah Purim night is ok
but one has only a Purim Seudah by day.
KJ Chusid no need to wait so long, just wait until after Pesach – you can get great deals on Pesach seforim.
Kidding aside…
My suggestion Ramateshkolnik is to use those reviews by many of the reliable hashgachas & call your local rav as necessary for shailas. As for a seder limud, 10 minutes is not enough to learn even b’kitzur all of hilchos pesach. I would think of taking a section of Mishnah Berurah/Aruch Hashulchan/Shulchan Aruch HaRav etc. (make a reasonable cheshbon how much ground you can cover) and cover that area in a little depth. For example using dirshu’s edition or adding by learning the sefer Piskei Teshuvos on the Mishnah Berurah [or a more in depth English sefer on the topic ]etc. I’d also perhaps consider a few minutes here and there to prepare some divrei Torah on the haggadah and for other seudas during Pesach. Over a few years you can cover a substantial amount of ground. Perhaps adding some chazara of previous years – one can take notes for example so as to add on each year.
Hatzlacha.
theprof1 – it’s not so pashut to go to sleep especially if you’re driving.
A few random thoughts on the topic having recently delved into it a bit:
1) On the topic of women, there is a source brought in the Nitei Gavriel that brings the din based on a pasuk. In the 9th perek of the Megillah, Mordechai sends out a letter to the yidden about Purim. Then Esther writes down as well (9:29). This time Purim is not spelled with a vav. Indicating that though women are obligated like men in the mitzvos of Purim – there is an exception. The din of drinking.
2) Hagahos Maimonos brings the Ravayah that says drinking is a mitzvah b’alma but NOT a chiyuv. In other words, it seems it is a hiddur or perhaps the ideal way to have one’s seudas Purim – but one can fulfill their mitzvah of a seudah on Purim without becoming drunk (or drinking at all). Though drinking really should be taken quite seriously (see above posts ;-)) because the mitzvos of Purim are divrei sofrim and divrei sofrim one has to act in according with a din Torah (so safek – l’chumra) and the gemara does “chayav” – making it a potential situation where one has to go ideally like the most machmir shita (again as safek divrei sofrim l’chumrah).
But, this Ravayah and the fact that the Archos Chayim brings the great avreirah it is to get drunk [as is known it leads to the most serious avreiros which one does not need a rishon to r’l know – not referring to Purim btw, just one sees by the goyim] (the Bais Yosef brings his opinion to CONCLUDE his discussion) – and the Rabbeinu Efrayim (the primary disciple of the Rif) learns the gemara that at least the extent of the din is lightened by the story of Rabbah and R’ Zeirah [one can says either he means no din at all or the din of “ad d’lo yada”].
The Gra for example in the biur haGra on the Rema (who says one can take a nap AFTER drinking a little more than normal) brings the gemara that H’ loves one who never gets drunk and to see the Haghos Maimonos. In other words, it’s not contemporary Gedolim under political duress making such statements – its Rishonim and Gedolei Achronim.
Saying that, it is quite obvious that if one can find a way to get drunk and not be m’vatel mitzvos (like davening, bentsching, and not doing inappropriate activity) – then it is not a din to poo poo. As the Gra implies, just drinking and taking a nap is a kula. It’s forced. It is a fitting to do according to the M’B because how else can one fulfill “ad d’lo yada” – except by putting themselves in danger. There are deep reasons (not sure what – but it is brought down) of ‘ad dlo yadah’ so the M’B while recognizing the pitfalls states one should at least take a nap. This is based on a Pri Megadim who gets from Pri Chadash that really the din is to get smashed but in our generations (ie the Pri Chadash – who lived in last half of the 1600’s) one should not do so.
The emes is though that there is another shitah that seems to the Machaber (as the Rema brings a yeish omrim – he must be stating differently) and the Bach as well as many other poskim including the Sfas Emes on the Gemara and R’ Yisrael Salanter.
The gemara is not saying the mitzvah is to go ‘ad dlo yadah’ – rather it is a mitzvah to drink and be someach in the inyan of Baruch Mordechai and Arur Haman (see the Taz for example and other holy Sefarim) and that simchah and joyous celebration is an obligation on the person the whole day. If they get to the point of ‘ad d’lo yadah’ – they’re patur. Not fulfilling but rather ending their ability to be involved in the mitzvah.
This opinion requires drinking more than usual (the Bais Yosef says just ‘m’at’ [a little more] than usual), the Bach says even drunkedness that one still has their daas [ie their still aware and thinking – just quite tipsy]. This is the reason the gemara used l’vsumei not the normal lashon shikar (which the Tur says – and the Shulchan Aruch switches back).
I have already written a lot, so I’ll stop
Freliechen Purim.
a good time to start is 7:30pm. It gives you time to get there after she and you had something to eat already and each has sufficient time to get ready. The date can also still end at a relatively reasonable hour.
So 7:30pm is the right time to start.
For those bashing the story, we are ignoring a gevaldik chap that Artscroll pulled. How can we have the story of Esther on screen – that wouldn’t be tznius? Take Esther out. Boom. Vashti and Zeresh can look ugly (at least with Vashti – probably not completely true) but batta boom.
It dawned on me last year, and I shepped nachas from the chochma.
It davka had to be not about Esther. Grata, my 3yr old at the time after watching asked – where’s Esther?
Probably should not post this as it might cause bashing of Artscroll which is like the bashing of any great and mighty organization that does better and more positive than anyone else – it’s easy bashing material because it makes people feel small.
But it’s Adar, I am releasing some deep sod’us on the CR.
Never been but I heard the Amazon Cafe was nice. It’s on Quentin – right by 12th St. & Kings Highway. Sunflower Cafe is not too far according to Shamash if Amazon is too hopping as they say.
I think this thread will make sense on Purim…
Under the table, classic move – but got to look around.
That’s how one of my rebbeim did it at chasunas etc.
No need to use like 5 oz though 🙂
Many girls do no want to eat while first meeting that’s the facts – of course there are exceptions and anyone who dates out of a small playbook is often going to lose. Excluding the exception of the rule, there is also a certain relaxiveness necessary to eat in an enjoyable way- you can find this out by going on an awkward shidduch date to test. Even a person that you want to date again – still might NOT be a great companion to break bread just yet.
The first date is to break the ice.
Three keys that I have randomly assembled –
Don’t go too far.
First dates should last for as little time as possible. The time of the date should be for talking – not analyzing maps. Of course going two blocks from her house is a bad idea. But go to the next community over, a nice coffee house, a tznius hotel lobby/loung, a park, ice cream. Whatever. The main thing is not to interfere with the analysis of can we shmooze and get along. If you talk for 6 1/2 hours – great. But even if she is your beshert – a 5 hour voyage might be counterproductive as she probably has school or work the next day and you have to wake up for shacharis.
Don’t stand out.
Does the car have to be fancy? No. A jalopey? No. Simple. Make sure there is nothing major that stands out negatively, but you don’t have to impress. Save awesome date ideas and the steaks for later.
Start & end strong.
A date is like game in a way. Unless you are having a sit-in and are a chassid (all for it!), you are playing a few rounds before you “win.” Then you have to play for rest of your life. Not everything said nor done will be perfect. Have a solid start. Smile, come up with a few lines to start that are solid [ see 2 – don’t impress – but have a few “I am nice and normal” comments ready to go]. End strong – even if the date is not working out -end it like a mentsch. Don’t rush back to your car, don’t drive away until she is inside.
Hatzlacha,
and if you do go out to eat – make sure it’s not messy BUT don’t eat a sandwich with a fork (guilty – see no. 2 again).
DQB
I would visit the main Bais Medrash in Williamsberg [ie it was THE Satmar Bais Medrash back in the day] – like on Rodney (anyone know – was only there once or twice) & right across the street is his house. I’d imagine you find a gabbai around and ask for what to do to speak to him.
DQB
DY is correct, but the topic requires sensitivity.
The pull of movies and videos is very strong, and like many unhealthy activities – a common response is to be defensive. It’s not only language and inappropriate content that make movies – maaves (as Reb Avigdor Miller supposedly called them), it’s the whole ideas and krum perspective they give.
However, even if it was wrong – it’s not appropriate to push people away.
Jews that used to use razors in Western Europe, women who did not cover their hair in Lithuania, drinking cholov akum in America (before R’ Moshe), milking cows on Shabbos in Israel – the list goes on and on. In all cases, the Rabbanan of the time might have decried it, but they surely did not throw people away. That’s wrong and not the derech hatorah (or so I think.)
The main issue is that a person themselves has to understand and recognize it is wrong – and not without sincere thought. How does a person feel after watching – uplifted? inspired? energized? Consider the shortness of life and what is the proper use of one’s time. Until one has themselves concluded that it is wrong, it is an aveirah to pressure them to stop. It is a mitzvah in the Torah to try to to protest a wrong action – if they will listen. If not, it is a mitzvah to be quiet. In this case, perhaps come up with other, less threatening ways to help people – especially focused on those like the original poster who wants to stop.
DQB
Aproudbyg referenced it.
Invest in your relationship. Friendship takes time and effort. Surely she will need friendly support when entering the parsha – help her out and be there for her. This will increase your friendship bond, and that won’t be stopped by her marriage. Of course it will be different, but married people need friends too.
Hatzlacha,
DQB
Flatbusher, I’ll assume your oversight was due to do my extensive blathering above – the fact you reached the final paragraph is a kavod :-). I said “could”. I personally know there are guys who have degrees who were learners or earners who are now Rebbeim in Yeshiva and making things work for a long time. It happens to be it worked out. Though, they were ready to go work if need be. This is of course is an exception. I was making the point that either way – it’s up to Hashem. Not to the couple when their dating. The ikar is to be realistic.
Added note, that there are plenty people working who are having trouble make ends meet.
DQB
Learner/Earners are few as DY correctly stated. And frankly, the main learner/earner (ie one who does both in a somewhat even fashion) who are serious are one’s that need money. While this is a perfectly honest and ehrliche thing to work in addition to going to yeshiva and these guys are often very nice (and great shidduchim!), it’s not like financially more savvy to date a person who is learning part time because his parents can’t afford him to be in yeshiva vs. a guy who is learning full time and has no wanting to work – b/c his parents can afford so. I say this to make a point not to c’v degrade anyone. However, it is a point that often young bochurim who are working can be working in jobs that are not that lucrative (surprise, they have no experience nor degree) – while a yungerman in Kollel with an (achveis) computer science degree might be more geared long-term vis-a-vis parnassa. Boxes are good for storing things not people.
To note, I think the main issue in shiddichim is if the pair is a good match (simple as that). But the learner/earner things needs to be taken to task. As stated, 1) the logic is not there with a learner/earner (except perhaps a few exceptions) 2) it’s frankly a made up category. Mind you, I am speaking to the under 23/24 crowd of boys. Of course, if a boy is older, then there are more boys that do both – because the type of income that comes with working part-time is worthwhile for a single bochur who is trying to start his post-bochurim life while still a bochur. If we are talking about an older girl, she should ya be looking for a learner/earner (those do exist) because a) they are working – showing often they are mature in their life b) they still connect with a makom Torah. But, again, that is by older bochurim, not under 23 ones.
So, nu, what then should a baalabusta be looking for to be her lil’ Chaney’s chosson? The thing to look at in a shidduch (for those not totally bent on learning for an extended period of time) is a Learner or Earner (copyright DQB). This means that the person is serious about learning, and is reasonable about the possibility of working – and has done or has a plan to do his hishtadlus to find gainful employment when the need arises. It’s not like you leave kollel, go to the local Forbes 500 company, and ask them to get the corner office ready for tomorrow. Of course, if one’s parents have a large business in their family ready to give a great job to Baruch the Bochur – then again what’s the nafka minah of all these cheshbonos about what Baruch wants in 2 years, 5 years. It’s naarishkeit. The normal scenario for “normal” people is that the couple should be realistic about finances and very particular about making a Torah home (to note: anecdotally, the one who want a learner/earner crowd can [notice the word can, not the word are] be girls that are not that serious about having their husband learn but do want a good shidduch).
So who is a good learner or earner?
Does he have a college degree? A plan to go to law school or college [in a serious way – not taking a few course to see what’s what]? A particular business or trade that he is very interested in to pursue if the need arises. Does he when asked seem quite in touch with the reality that Kollel life is not necessarily long-term. That learning is amazing and something he wants to be part of his life, but he’s well aware of the need that will likely arise at some point (again not up to us but up to Hashem) when he has to work – and not in an abstract sense, but he has an idea of what type of work he’d like to do. For example, if he is interested in chinuch, does he plan on being a Rebbe at a local day camp in the summer. Learn night seder at a local high school. Tutor kids to see which type he has a better ability to connect towards. Does he shmooze it up when given the opportunity with noted mechanim in the area. The boy might want to be the Rosh Yeshiva – as an aside if that puts the girl off, then it’s not a good shidduch. But he has considered work and has a serious plan. That’s like a geshmaka piece of tiramisu. Seriously who is not giving it at least one try.
Now, it could be Kollel life will be geshmakt. The young couple will thrive, the guy will get a nice position teaching in the yeshiva, the girl will be happy at a nice job, and guess what – they are learners for life. Or, Kollel life can be stressful, maybe a parent loses a job c’v or something else – so nu, the couple has a plan that both are comfortable with. That’s what’s to look for not the 219 learner/earners in actual existence of which to note 193 are over 24.
DQB
I’d do some private eye work to see what food she likes and work from there.
PAA is a great troll because he says the emes amongst his foolishness.
“Good middos” on a resume or by calling a close friend is having 4 wheels on a car. The thing to look at is exceptional middos. Now, it might not be to find such a person. If so, middos really are not an issue to consider (unless of course the person has bad middos).
As an example:
Shprintza: Rizzy, I don’t know who to go out with?
Rizzy: Nu, what are the choices?
Shprintza: Moshe – he’s well to do. is a good learner, and people seem to say nice things. Or Yankel, he’s not so bright, but his friends say he has great middos.
Rizzy: Wow, his friends on the phone say he has great middos? Go for it. Middos are the most important.
Let’s change some things:
Shprintza: Rizzy, I don’t know what car to lease?
Rizzy: Nu, what are the choices?
Shprintza: A Camry – it’s affordable, safe, has nice features. Or Altima – it’s not as nice, but it’s dependable according to Nissan.
Rizzy: Well, if Nissan says it’s dependable, then that’s what’s most important in a car. What good is a car if you can’t depend on it.
Nisht. Of course middos are important. But nu nu nu what is great about their middos? They didn’t hit their shtender? They were not thrown out of seminary? They did their required chessed hours with a bren. All yidden are good within.
The emes is all the things about Moshe are also likely nothing. Who said he was a good learner? His chavrusa. No, says his chavrusa, he’s a real slouch (ie what’s he supposed to say). Who said he is well to do? The person who looks at what jewelry his mom is wearing? All of these things are nothing. Tachlis. Tachlis. If someone is going into a business, do they call the potential partner’s friend and lawyer and ask how they are as a person. No. They want proof. If your daughter is nice and has a great middos, come up with something that shows that – tell that. Find the person whose your daughter’s good middos were shown via. Ie the seminary roommate who was a slob. The friend in high school who was not so nice. Whatever. Don’t question why no one has al pi ruach hakodesh not chapped the middos tovos of your lil’ tzadikel (or tzadikla). I mean this with good charm btw. I do not mean to make light of a tough parsha…but it’s trolling thread, felt some license.
DQB
It’s almost Adar, so I am going to be a shtikel Purim torahesque.
Maasei Chol (everyday activities) tell a lot about a man (or woman). In fact, I have heard various sayings similar to “you can see who a bochur is by how he plays basketball.” Is he sort of go through the motions (well everyone else is playing so I am going to mozy up and down the floor), does he ballhog, is he is selfless, is he aggressive, does he shot long jumpers instead of use his energy to drive – I could continue)
A normal person who commutes to work by car spends a good time of their life in a car. It’s a tremendous time to gain great middos, talk to the King (but don’t do it too oddly), and learn some Torah (via tape – don’t try to daven and drive…well not too often). It also can be a good time to relax – some good music, interesting news, or talk show. The reason why people have road rage is because they feel their drive is in a between time from where they were to where they are going. In fact, it is b’etzem an activity b’fnei atzmo (by itself). It should be treated with thought and positivity. It’s not that people who are honking like mishugoyim are bad people c’v. They are not who they are in the car – but the issue is they don’t feel they need to be who they in the car. That’s an issue.
There are so many great car activities. That’d be a great thread to m’chazek the time spent in the car, and go k’neged the poor middos some people do have behind the wheel.
DQB
Reb Golem Gorilla (is that what G&G stands for?),
Your added comment that he is a yid and an ‘affiliated’ (perhaps heavily so) yid is a major difference.
Though I have not personally dealt with one in a business setting, they are unfortunately notoriously the hardest because you stand as a representative against who they are (or so they think).
Another important distinction is how long has he been your boss. Did you move into a higher position and now have him as your boss – or switched companies – or this is a long standing problem.
My suggestion (if it is relatively new relationship or gig) is stick to your Torah guns. Find reasonable, healthy parameters for your frumkeit vis-a-vis what food you eat (and how you attain said food), how to fit in mincha into your schedule, how many hours before Shabbos to leave, your Chol HaMoed/Purim/Fast Days schedule etc. Figure out what you are comfortable with (probably good to include your Rav and wife in the brainstorming), and just do it. Keep at it, do your thing, and of course do a great job at your job. Of course, that is easier said then done – but if you have come to the conclusion that you are reasonable (and you are), and you are who you are (and they technically can’t stop you) – then that’s that. Over time, I assume that the tensions will mellow, and perhaps a mutual respect can develop. Reb GG does this, I don’t like it, but what I am supposed to do about it.
Another thing is be aware of your boss’s life. There could be a time that comes up where you can slip in a nice thought or what have you – and it could melt the ice very quickly. In addition things likea fresh box hamentaschen on (or around) Purim, Happy New Years cards on Rosh HaShana etc. might be taken the wrong way, but if done without any sense of frummyness also might over time be a good way to connect.
Hatzlacha,
DQB
At first, this would be l’maaseh a nafka minah if giving a picture is assur or ein roy l’asos (translation: Roy shouldn’t do it).
If it is assur, then ein issur chal al issur. If not, then it’s an issur of sheker.
However, after much hisboddus (translation: long work day), I think it is like this. The issur is to give your granddaughter’s picture, not another woman’s picture. And if you want to say it is being nikshal the people, that is only on the tzad they don’t recognize the person – because if they do then they have internet and know celebrities and lifnei es deightee there is no issur and it will be mavir if the shidduch is bad – a tzroech gadol. And even if they don’t recognize the photo, therefore a potential nikshal of seeing the picture, there is no problem of lifnei ever because maybe they are being somech that giving pictures is only not fitting, not mamish an issur.
Therefore, you have to what to rely on cosidering the hefsid meruabah. B’frat, your granddaaughter is in time of the shidduch crisis -so it’s a horaas shaa. M’stama. About the din sheker, some say that since photoshoping is so common then like parve creamer with chicken it loses the issue.
Another point added in another thread is if what is usually considered trolling is allowed from Tu B’shevat or only until Purim. Even if allowed, from when? Considering, DY posted this 22 hours ago b’erech 8:30-9pm EST that is Tu B’Shevat even on the west coast it’s after shkiyah. However, in Hawaii – it was still the 14th of Shevat. The question is it based on the poster or since a forum is accessible in the whole world – every place must be tu b’shevat. Accordingly, DY might still have the din of a troll. But the olam seems mekal from Rosh Chodesh Shevat – relying on the opinion of Bais Shammai.
Q:
Obviously, the rule is that what would normally be considered trolling is allowed on Purim as well as Adar – but is it mutar even from Tu B’Shevat? Or does it still have the din trolling.
It is 30 days before Purim, so perhaps it is within the parameters of Purim. What time was the original post – did Purim mashgiach wait until shkiyah or tzeis? What time zone?
I also want to know what’s the end time? Can we allow it into Nissan? M’stama during sefira one can’t troll.
DQB
The answer is dependent on a few matters; however, if you are going into a field that Touro is strong at or well suited towards – choose Touro. If you happen to be into (achveis) Graphic Design or something more nuanced Touro might not have or little of. Touro is not perfect (it’s college rabbosai) but its a very nice environment for a yeshiva bochur.
In addition, for the harrys amongst us, Landers has an evening program that many Chofetz Chaim and Ohr HaChaim talmidim go (with a few others sprinkled in) that is in a more low key enviro than Flatbush if that would suit you better. But again there are multiple matters to consider despite Touro being the best option in a vacuum.
DQB
My Most Favorite Food (72nd and something) +
1) National History Museum
and/or
2) Central Park (horse ride)
The Goq, kudos on the Knicks joke – going would probably not be assur as they long have been taam lifgam.
I have a few tidbits on the Kollel lifestyle, but I will save for another time.
Two points though for now – one general, one random.
One – life cannot be planned. Sort of obvious, but worth noting. Many couples ready to learn for the long term have various things that disable that future, and couples who are planning on a year or two max might end up learning for a while. The basic yesod is that the couple is functioning and happy. This at times is due to external pressures that cannot be changed. However, I heard from an Adom Gadol on the topic of a girl who only wants to have a guy learn a year max. Well, if during the year, there is harmony, she sees her husband grow, and everything is solid. Then she might change her mind and say well one more year etc. On the opposite end, a girl might be theoretically ready to support for life, but after year might find the lifestyle too restricting etc. In other words, plan, do one’s histadlus, but don’t think of things too much in a box especially if they have not happened yet.
Second, a great profession for a girl wanting to support is be an accountant. It’s solid, not as often done, and more options than a therapist of some manner or teacher…not to mention often more lucrative. Touro has a good program from what I hear. And btw, husbands that work often also need their wife to help out. 2 jobs is the reality for most in the frum world. It’s not a degree l’vatelah if your husband goes to work.
B’sha tovah u’mislachkas.
DQB
Thanks, YYBC. If not for you, I would have been unaware.
As an aside, I am in support of a thread of the deep meaning of pizza motzei shabbos.
I was thinking that the normal pizza is 8 slices – lots to work from.
The idea of it being round like with aveilus that Shabbos left.
How all the slices point to the middle.
Did a little research:
See Halichot bat Yisrael, p. 230 and fn. 241 (Hebrew
edition)
Rabbi Ari Enkin (from AishDas)
*********************************
There is some discussion in halachic literature of a custom for women not to perform certain labors on Motzaei Shabbat, such as sewing and
knitting.[1] The origin of this custom is related to the legend that when Mashiach comes there will no longer be a need to sew clothes. As there is an increased potential for Mashiach to arrive on a Motzaei Shabbat, the custom of refraining from sewing on Motzaei Shabbat evolved accordingly.
Other authorities argue there is no such custom for women not to do certain forms of work on motzaei Shabbat, at least not one which is based in any classical sources, and women are free to dismiss the custom should they so desire.[2]
Closely related to the custom of not sewing on motzaei Shabbat is the
tradition that when the Jewish people left Egypt they brought no sewing or clothing manufacturing utensils with them.[3] Instead, the clothes they were wearing upon their departure from Egypt miraculously remianed fresh and clean and even grew with them as their clothing sizes changed.[4] Indeed, included in this Divine tailoring service was deodorant and
anti-perspirant for all the hot days in the desert. As such, in a gesture of longing and awaiting future days, the ladies of certain communities accepted upon themselves to refrain from sewing and similar activities at the conclusion of Shabbat. Indeed, Motzaei Shabbat is a popular time for a number of rituals, prayers, and spiritual practices related to the coming of Mashiach.
[1] Magen Avraham O.C. 299
[2] Rivevot Ephraim 2:107
[3] Shir Hashirim Rabba 4
[4] Ibn Ezra; Devarim 8
Rabbi Ari Enkin Ramat Beit Shemesh, Israel Cell: 011 972 52 579 1773 / Res: 011 972 2 992 0241
There it says original Abuduram (a rishon I believe). Mishnah Berurah does not discuss (meaning doesn’t bring down minhag l’halacha). It also brings the Aruch HaShulchan:
??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? (??”? ???”?), ?????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????????, ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????, ???? ?? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ????.
Translation:
There are those women who are accustomed not to do work all night of Motzei Shabbos (M’A), we did not hear of such things and it is against the Talmud Yerushalmi, our Women (ie one’s of his day) only don’t do work until after Havdalah, but afterwards do all melachas, so is the law.
So you have Rav Ephraim Greenblatt zatzal (mentioned above) and Aruch HaShulchan. Probably should ask a Rabbi, but if it is for relaxing – I imagine you have what to rely on.
DQB
Sam2,
You are right. I put him in there as I thought he had the same opinion as the M’B very strongly supporting before Shkiyah. He does bring that is probably the p’shat in the Shulchan Aruch and Tur (ie bein shamashos after shkiyah) that says Erev; however he concludes.
??? ??? ?????
???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ??????
??? ?????? ???? ??? ??????
Now I am not sure does that mean to not rely for example if a minyan is starting after shkiyah or if one has tzorech to daven after. Or if even if l’maaseh it is after shkiyah and b’shogeg or b’anos it occured, one should rather not daven Mincha.
He mentions before the minhag to push off mincha until after and brings a limud zchus. Also, his concern by the Rambam is interesting because Bais Yosef does not seem to even have concern for it (as he wonders himself).
Good Catch, Sam.
DQB
For sure (again b’evieved to M’B, Aruch Hashulchan, many other non-Chasidish poskim) 13.5 minutes. I found that Rabbi Doniel Neustadt says 20m because we are concerned that Tzeis is 35 minutes after shkiyah and the M’B cited above says 15m before. Reb Moshe says 30 minutes (can someone find that teshuva). It seems pshat from the Rema, Kitzur, Rav Yosef (cited in article by Rabbi Flug from YU), others that Mincha is until Tzeis Hachovim. Therefore the time one states a fast ends (which is hypothetically earliest time of tzeis as opposed to motzei shabbos which might be longer as a chumra) is for sure ok according to those poskim. In other words, let’s say person waits 42 minutes then until then.
As stated in the Rav Neustadt article, the Biur Halacha says one should have a tenai that if its too late for Mincha, then the shemoneh esrei can be for maariv, and maariv will be a nedavah.
Being as 1) Mincha is d’rabbanan (so more lenient in regards to machlokes) 2) a big inyan to daven – there is a lot of room to be makel after the fact. Of course, one should daven in a timely manner (unless maybe if their minhag is otherwise) but after the fact I personally do not see why one should be machmir not to daven. I think (again assuming adverse circumstances) that one who is makel has what to rely on and if their heart is l’shem shamayim (ie they want to daven even though they “dont have to”) then go for it.
DQB
This is suprisingly lomdishe conversation for a shidduch thread.
I am not a dating expert, but one random try is to see if any boys are available in nearby out-of-town communities. Example Chicago – Cleveland, Milwalkee, Detroit etc, Though these communities might also have more girls than boys; however, older boys have probably been dated or either side has decided not to date the ones available. At the same time, the boys likely do not want to travel to NY/NJ either. Worth a try to contact those towns shadcanim.
If one thinks – well if no one wanted to marry them, so why would I?
I wouldn’t say this to the person…but the answer is and how old are you? But you are still a nice person.
To be clear Mishnah Berurah holds it is better to daven alone than with a minyan after shkiyah. This though is not mainstream practice from many non-Chasidic rabbanim especially during the week.
Firstly, everyone holds at least b’dieved that one can daven after Shkiyah during Bein HaShamashos. The time l’chumra (obviously for non-Chasidim) brought down in the Piskei Teshuvos is 13 1/2 minutes I believe. Reb Moshe says in his teshuvos 30 minutes – can’t find at moment but saw inside [not sure if that is ending by or starting by].
See the last Mishnah Berurah on second page going on Rema that explicitly says that one can daven until Tzeis Hachovim. M’B says (b’evived/shas hadchak) until 1/4 hour before Tzeis (I saw quoted that R’ Ovadiah Yosef says until Tzeis literally so seems the lashon of the Rema and Kitzur Shulchan Aruch who brings it down) and that if there are 3 stars it’s certainly too late. So that’d be around the 30 minute mark of Reb Moshe in America I think (assuming early ‘Tzeis’ of 42/45/50 minutes).
So for sure they have what to rely on b’evided [and obviously they are going like poskim/ their mesorah that holds it is l’chatchilah after shkiyah] until early tzeis. So helping would not be lifnei ever at all IMHO.
DQB
I am not of course a spokesman of the Ribbono Shel Olam, but from my covering his actions vis-a-vis New York weather – he throws a curveball in there to make the point that the point of the weather is not to prepare properly (though of course that is important) but to recognize who is in charge of the City and all other cities. For example with Hurricane Sandy that came after Hurricane Irene which made everyone feel lax. The fact that anyone would give a politician flack for overdoing things a tad after Sandy is beyond me. But by next one, we’ll be hearing jokes about “the great storm” before we c’v find it is was nothing to joke about.
First off, it’s been two years, but Ken Zayn – I liked the joke.
To pontificate, Shulchan Aruch HaRav says at the end of the first siman of Shulchan Aruch (HaRav)
[Note – I split up a little for bolding purposes, hard to quote Hebrew text]
?) ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????
????? ??? ????? ??’ ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????
????? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ?”? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???’ ?? ????? ????? ???? ??’
???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ??????
??? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? (??”? ?????? ?”?) ??? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ??????? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????:
It’s explicit that one who is learning otherwise should just say the parshas mentioned (like Hamon, akeidah, korbanos etc.) at “perakim” [ie one in a while]. Not explicit is that if one will not be able to concentrate nor have the time to say all the parshios everyday, it is still worthwhile to say once in a while. For example, a lot of people say the Parshas Akeidah on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. It’d seem that during the day the olam reads the Parshas Hamon in shnayim mikrah would be a good time for its reading [imagine b’dieved the whole week – despite the benefits of Tuesday mentioned above].
DQB
From DailyHalacha .com
The Gemara in Masechet Shabbat (14) cites a Halacha in the name of Rabbi Parnach forbidding touching the parchment of a Torah scroll barehanded. One who must touch the scroll must do so indirectly, while holding some material in his hand, such as a cloth or Tallit. The Gemara warns that a person who touches the scroll barehanded forfeits the Misva in which he is involved, Heaven forbid. Thus, for example, if a Sofer (scribe) is writing a Sefer Torah, or if somebody studies from the scroll, lifts it to show it to the congregation, or rolls it, he forfeits the merit of the Misva if he directly touches the scroll while performing that Misva.
Summary: It is forbidden to directly touch the parchment of a Sefer Torah; one who must touch the scroll should make sure to do so indirectly, while holding a cloth or his Tallit. This applies even if one washed Netilat Yadayim. However, one may directly touch a Megilat Ester after performing Netilat Yadayim without a Beracha.
See:Siman 147
The M’B (1): if there is a need one can for example if one needs to sew a sefer Torah but one should wash their hands (ie ritually); however, without a need, one should not touch at all.
It seems the coffee room got it right 🙂
DQB
links removed
The odd thing is that Starbucks is run by a Jew that has what to do with Jewishness. Supposedly (according to him) he was close to Rav Nosson Tzvi and met him multiple times and has helped different causes —yet his coffee store does not have kosher certified ingredients by and large [of course having every store kosher certified would be complex]. Ie the frappucino mix [even though the one’s in the bottle are reliable to those who drink Cholov Stam].
There is plenty to be chaf zchus…
The basic syrups (like vanilla, hazelnut, etc.) are kosher certified [they are not “Starbucks” syrups per se]. Caramel is not. Mocha is made with a certified mixture in my recollection. Anything specifically for Starbucks (at least in the past) is not certified. However nothing has gelatin or such (again in the past -it’s been a few years since I had what to do with Starbucks)
Therefore, one getting a vanilla or hazelnut latte has what to be so-mech on.
And according to Rav Abadi (at least a Kosher Starbucks website) most things are kosher based on ingredients.Though I do not believe many hold that way usally – It’s seems that the minhag of many was to drink at Starbucks. There was one on Central Avenue in Cedarhurst (now a kosher coffee place) that was quite often used by Orthodox Jews including frappucinos.
I think in some ways the kashrus orgs antithesis towards for example plain coffee is perhaps partially to show that the lenient attitude in general is not warranted. However the attitude is pervasive in Modern orthodox circles (and some regular middle of the road circles) and I imagine that either 1) there is what to be so-mech on 2) it’s likely a rabbanical issue (ie d’rabbanan – by kli sheni etc. – dishwashers are a discussion in general perhaps different to ashkenazim and sefardim) that there is just lack of knowledge about due to how other’s act – not something that deserves much chagrin nor protest from others.
DQB
YehudahYonah,
You are correct the DD is in Lawrence not Cedarhurst. I thought of that in between posts – but never corrected myself. It is though in the “Cedarhurst” area -as things off or on Central Avenue are sometimes grouped in even though some places are in Woodmere or Lawrence technically.
There is also one right by the Hewlett station – immediately adjacent to the Chabad of Hewlett – that is not under the Vaad and does have CY milk available (see above if that helps). And as you said, one in Valley Stream – that I believe does not have any CY milk available – under the Vaad of the 5 towns.
Lior: Chicken and cheese is drabbanan – but no kashrus agencies c’v gives hashgacha 🙂 When there is an issur that has two sides, the issur is still forbidden for the machmir – but it loses it’s status to some degree.
Driving a car on Shabbos makes you not Shomer Shabbos.
Opening a bottle of soda does not – even to one who holds its forbidden (insert any of the 1000’s of machlokes haposkim in Hilchos Shabbos which of course is more strict and important to Yiddishkeit than Cholov Yisrael.)
I am on the Cholov Yisrael side. But creating issurim (the giving of cholov stam to a person who is not particular especially in America) needs reasoning.
Lior: Why would you think that I disagree? I was stating that there are guys who have their shtick (be it from themselves, their surroundings, theirs parents) – be it a way of dressing for wife/soon-to-be wife (be it inappropriate or strange) or of rules (dress size etc.) These are all easy to wail against when the fact is any person who follows said ways is not the people who are wailing’s daughters beshert. So no worries. We are in galus – people are confused. I was commenting that lamenting how people choose shidduchim is often an excercise in futility.
This is not my style, but I am going to be a tad harsh. Please don’t take it the wrong way.
There are people that like to discuss their thoughts in depth in person – often with great gesticulation etc. Someone who has kavod habriyos will let it be. Hamayvin yavin that the people (I assume people understand what I am saying) who go on have stuff going on. Waiting for their shpiel can take time though…but alas often it is better to let them vent because its good for them and you are enabling a person in distress to be a little less so – even if their comments are “out there”. Many like to write their philosophies on life online – it takes no time to move on. So nu? Why hurt those that are hurting?
1. Chein – looks (see above) is deceptive. The ikar is chein – is the girl pleasant to look at. Is there that special look that a boy feels lovely feelings for… Obviously choosing based on a checklist of sizes etc. is dumb. But you know what – tough luck. There are guys who like to have their wife wear things (not necessarily untznius) that are from a outside perspective “interesting” – an odd lipstick, a certain color skirt etc. Do these things make sense? No. But kvetching in articles is not going to get a guy to not like an odd shaitel haircut or funky glasses. Just deal. Everyone has their own bashert and your non-bashert does not need to want to marry you.
2. Extremely good middos. The vast majority of frum yidden have good middos when facing a situation of relative calm. When things start getting complex in life, marriage lessens the number with “great middos”. Find a girl that has really, really good middos. REALLY GOOD MIDDOS. Not stam. Find a girl whose stories make you pause in awe. Wow, she is really nice. If she says tehillim, smiles, and does not have a record of disciplinary problems – she might be a very nice girl – but you can’t claim (as of yet) that she has “good middos”. It’s like a guy in yeshiva who shows up the vast majority of sedarim and davens 3x a day – he might be a gadol, but you can’t learn out that he is a ‘good learner’ from being in yeshiva and learning. What else was he supposed to be doing? Of course, it’s not a knock for doing what’s right – I am saying it is not a proof.
3. Similar backgrounds/goals. Not everyone has to be from the same place or same background – but you have to be on the same page. Finances, long-term plans, family dynamics. Of course, the first year/two/three you might agree on being in Kollel or living in Hoopitsville – but long term do you shtim? Of course, things can work out despite. And no one can plan their own future. But why not make it easier on yourself – look for someone who you really seem to be on the same wavelength.