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I don’t think there’s one age that fits everyone.
There should be more education on what having your own home is like. How to be financially responsible, how to maintain a home, etc. That’s something which isn’t really taught in yeshivos, and I personally know many individuals who struggled with it right after getting married.
Start teaching those items, and then maybe boys will be ready for marriage earlier.Aveirah, you mentioned R’ Levi Yitzchak earlier in this topic. One thing I do know, is that he always looked for the good in people.
If he were around today, and heard someone using inappropriate words in Ivrit, his comment would likely be, “Hashem, look how amazing your children are! Even those who struggle, still use your holy language, because they feel connected to you! Forgive the misuse of the language, and deepen the relationship!”Avira. the Besht taught that improper thoughts should not be avoided. The reason is that he believed that since the entire world is a manifestation of Hashem’s will, and Hashem is purely good, therefore everything in the world is good. This is the basis of the whole idea of klipos, hiding kernels of holiness within them.
The Besht said that if one was in middle of davening, and began having improper thoughts, one should NOT try to remove them from his mind. Instead, he should concentrate on the images, and appreciate the beauty within them. Try to acknowledge that it all comes from Hashem. Since lust is connected with love, if one recognizes that the lust comes from Hashem, concentrating on it will lead to Ahavas Hashem.
Indeed, one of his students, Leib Melamed from Brody, wrote a commentary on the Tur, and he commented that it’s praiseworthy to try and picture inappropriate images while davening, in order to elevate your love of Hashem.Obviously, the misnagdim strongly opposed this idea. R’ Dovid of Makow, one of the misnagdim, explained something which the Gra said – the Gra came out publicly against chassidim exclaiming “Yakar!” while davening. R’ Dovid said the Gra picked this issue because Yakar has the same letters as Keri. He wouldn’t use the term straight out due to tznius, but he was alluding to the improper ideas they had during davening.
Yabia, the idea of the supremacy of D’veykus with Hashem was a radical innovation of the Besht, and was opposed by most of the leading Rabbonim of the time.
Chassidus today has almost NOTHING in common with the chassidus started by the Besht. They just hold onto a few items because of the warm fuzzy feeling.
I’ve studied the arguments between the early chassidim and the misnagdim. Some of the things the Besht taught make no sense at all, and would never be accepted today.mentsch, my point was that it doesn’t necessarily inject ruchniyos. A warm fuzzy feeling doesn’t mean you’re getting closer to Hashem.
Many people like to celebrate these Chassidish events because they’re enjoyable. It’s a shame that they try to disguise it as a religious observance. It’s just another piece of what I like to call “Feel-good Judaism”, where people just pick parts of various Mesorahs, whatever gives them a warm fuzzy feeling.
In most cases, people don’t really have any religious context for it.
Here is another example:
In my community, a number of people switched from davening on Shabbos morning at a minyan which is at a usual time, in order to go to a late minyan (not starting until 10). When I asked a friend “what about the halachos of zman Krias Shema and zman tefillah?” his response was that Chassidus has minhagim of different zmanim, so it’s ok. This person is not a chassid – he doesn’t keep any other chassidish minhagim. He just picks this because it’s easy for him.Judaism isn’t about feeling good. Yes, doing mitzvos should make you happy, but it doesn’t always. It’s about doing what Hashem wants from us, however it makes us feel.
I was told by the head of a very respected hechsher in Brooklyn that kashrus is about 85% politics and 15% hilchos kashrus. So I guess I agree that the 50% figure put out a little while back is incorrect.
Aveirah, it can be an issue of Yuhara to search out chumros. I did a Google search to find an exact source, and actually it turned up an old thread from the Coffee Room (and my old friend Feif Un): https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/taking-on-chumros
Also look up what R’ Shlomo Wolbe said about proper Avodas Hashem vs serving your own ego and desires to be more “frum”, without considering what it actually means.
Aveirah, if someone is purposely seeking out chumros because they are concerned about doing the right thing, then they should probably see a therapist. They may have anxiety issues.
Recognize what a chumrah is – it’s a stringency, not halachah. In fact, it is actually assur to search out extra chumros to take on for yourself.Yes, I do know of one real mekubal who is 100% legit. Does he have real open Ruach haKodesh? I don’t think anyone does in modern times.
But he doesn’t want it publicized. People who know him appreciate this, and don’t spread his information around.Aveirah, you can make jokes if you like. There’s actually a fertility specialist who is a Rabbi too. He won’t pasken for his patients, but he’ll tell them all the relevant details to give over to their Rav when asking shailos.
Reb Eliezer, that may be the case, but it can really depend on the specific circumstances. If someone wants to get a heter for something that isn’t really significant, and just wants life to be easier, I can see a Rav turning the person away. But sometimes there may be medical issues at play. For example, I’ve written in the past how Bonei Olam helped me and my wife, and we have children thanks to them. In fertility treatments, there can be significant halachic questions that arise. Some Rabbonim may hold that some things are not allowed. Others hold that they are. A Rav should see that this is something which will have a significant impact, and even though the person doesn’t usually follow this Rav, he can allow things which another Rav might not. This is very different than someone who wants to eat at a certain store, or not have to throw out their food because they used the wrong pot.
Reb Eliezer, that’s not necessarily correct. I was told that you can ask, but you must tell the second Rav about the psak when asking your question.
I once had a situation where my Rav sent me to another Rav who was an expert in the specific type of case. The psak was not what we were hoping for. My Rav told me that he was going to send me to someone else. He called first to explain the background, and then I told him the exact details of the situation.
That was when my Rav told me you can ask someone else, as long as you inform them of the psak you already received.People shouldn’t shop around for different kulos. You should ask your Rav. If he wants to rely on others’ opinions, that’s up to him – and a lot may depend on the individual case.
Using the Eruv for example – I was told by a Rav who learned by R’ Tuvia Goldstein zt”l, that R’ Tuvia held you could make an Eruv in Brooklyn, and even held the existing Eruv was good. (Back then, it was a much smaller one, and was not accepted by almost everyone.)
However, R’ Tuvia wouldn’t issue that psak publicly, out of respect for R’ Moshe. He would tell people, however, that in certain circumstances, it could be used. For example, if someone had asthma and needed to carry an inhaler. According to R’ Moshe, such a person had to stay in their house on Shabbos, as they couldn’t carry it. According to R’ Tuvia, one could carry the inhaler in their pocket, since it wasn’t visible.yungermanS: is that really what you believe? That we don’t need to do any of our own hishtadlus? That we can ignore everything and Hashem will give us what we need?
ToShma: agreed that we shouldn’t hail physicality. That was what the Greeks did. They viewed the physical body as worthy of being shown off. They held contests to display physical prowess.
We don’t believe in that. However, that doesn’t mean we don’t believe in being fit. We are commanded to safeguard our health. Being in good condition is a big step towards that. We just don’t need to showcase it.Now I have to buy a copy of it, since it will be valuable soon.
Aveirah, I didn’t say that people should hold that they are on the level of a Rishon. We should have anivus, and hold ourselves as less. That doesn’t discount the fact that some rare individuals may have been on those levels. As you pointed out, the Gra did argue with those who came before him.
How do we know that nobody today reaches the level of earlier Gedolim?
R’ Elyashiv zt”l once compared R’ CHaim Kanievsky zt”l to a Rishon – when the famous story with the grasshopper occurred, he said that this is something only Rishonim were zoche to experience. Obviously it’s extremely rare to have individuals reach these heights, but I don’t think it’s impossible.Does Hashem want us to survive? Who knows? Let’s focus on what we do know. Hashem wants us to try to live – we are commanded to safeguard our lives to the best of our abilities. He wants us to live a life filled with Torah and Mitzvos.
So let’s focus on doing that, as it is within our control. If you start wondering whether Hashem wants us to be killed, you can chas v’shalom cause people to turn away from serving Hashem. Let’s just do what we know is right, and daven that Hashem continues to protect us.Square_root – I don’t think your story is the norm. I personally know of many communities that are warm and welcoming to all Jews. I once read something about how the Elizabeth, NJ community dealt with an emergency – a flight on a Friday was delayed, and would be landing about an hour before Shabbos. There were about 25 frum Jews on the plance, and they’d be unable to travel to their destinations. The Rav of the area sent out an email, and within 15 minutes, lodging and meals were arranged for all the travelers.
Just a few weeks ago, the Shabbos Project took place. How many guests were hosted for Shabbos meals, guests of various levels of observance?
Are there times where people are overlooked? Sadly, yes. But if people were made aware of this person, I’m sure the invitations would come pouring in. Likely they just aren’t aware.
I actually did ask one someone from Darchei. His response was “The Tzitz Eliezer was definitely a major posek, but I’m not going near this question!”
Believe it or not, it’s not so simple to get R’ Bender on the phone, even for former talmidim. He is extremely busy. Honestly, I don’t think this question is worth taking up his time. If i see him in person, it’s one thing to ask. But to get on his schedule, and take up a time slot purely for this, it’s just not right to bother him with it.
Joseph, I’m not discussing whether having the surgery is muttar or not. There is an issur to damage your body. That issur is often waived for medical needs – for example, you can’t just stick yourself with a needle for no reason. But for a diabetic, it’s required for health purposes. With someone who truly has gender identity issues, it must be discussed with a Rav and a doctor, to determine if there is a serious threat of suicide cs”v without it.
Personally, I believe it’s just a mental illness, which should be treated as such. But that doesn’t mean that there isn’t an immediate threat.The question raised was for the b’dieved of a person who already had the surgery – what is their gender from a halachic perspective?
I’m not saying this person is a good person. I was just addressing Aveirah’s accusation that this couple is engaging in serious issurim by living together. That’s all. I believe having the surgery was wrong, and that this person has serious issues. But I also accept that there is a legitimate option (the Tzitz Eliezer) who holds that halachically, this person is now a woman.
I never claimed the T”E claimed it was ok to have the surgery. In fact, I stated pretty clearly earlier that it was likely assur. But after the surgery is done, he felt that halachically, the person’s gender was changed.
As far as your “rating gedolim”, I disagree with you.mdd1: The case in question is there is a person who claims to be frum, who was born as a man, and had surgery to become a woman. This person is now married to a man, and they claim to live a frum lifestyle, as Lubavitch chassidim.
The Tzitz Eliezer has a teshuvah that says when someone has surgery to change gender, halachically they become the new gender. Aveirah is trying to claim that this person is committing horrible aveiros by being married. I am pointing out that while most don’t agree with the Tzitz Eliezer, he was definitely a top-notch gadol, and who are we to say he shouldn’t be followed, especially for someone who really felt they needed this surgery?Aveirah, no, I’m not suggesting to accept abomination. I’m suggesting that if someone in a terrible situation has a major posek to rely on, then maybe try to be a bit understanding.
In certain cases, Rabbonim will look for leniencies as much as possible (such as possible mamzer cases). It’s not like the individual in question was relying on something from Avi Weiss – the Tzitz Eliezer is widely accepted as a reliable gadol. So why can’t you accept the possibility that there is a halachic basis for this, instead of just condemning everyone and everything you disagree with?Aveirah, I don’t even know who Mike Moskowitz is. I did look up the teshuvah. He actually mentions that he read in newspapers that surgery is available now for gender changes. He says it must be examined as to what the status is, and that’s why he brings in the cases of an androgynous or a tumtum, in order to provide a base in establish halachah. But it’s pretty clear that he is referring to modern surgeries, to change a person’s gender.
As I said, I don’t follow this psak. But if others do, the Tzitz Eliezer definitely was a huge gadol.The next time I see R’ Bender, I will try to remember to ask him this. I have no problem asking him about anything, you’d be surprised about some of the things we’ve discussed over the years.
Your pure hatred towards Jews who don’t think like you continues to show. You will say anything to try and show them in a negative light. I’m not even referring to the former teacher at Magen David, I’m referring to your opinions about good, frum Jews who happen to call themselves Modern Orthodox.
I really hope you do teshuvah, and begin accepting and loving your Jewish brethren. Maybe that will help bring Mashiach – your current stance is probably preventing it.Aveirah, the Tzitz Eliezer actually starts off the teshuvah by saying he is addressing when someone had surgery to change their gender. He uses the cases of the androgynous person as the basis to determine what the halachah is for someone who had the surgery.
It must be stressed that his teshuvah does NOT address whether it is halachically permissible to have the surgery – he may hold it is assur. He only addresses the b’dieved of someone who already had it, and what the person’s status is.
I have not bought into this couple’s marriage. Personally I am repulsed by it. However, as I noted, the Tzitz Eliezer was a huge gadol, and may be relied upon. So it is possible that the marriage isn’t halachically wrong – only the surgery was. The status of this person is a machlokes.
As for a debate team, there actually is value to arguing without religious points. If a lawmaker wanted to pass laws allowing things which are against our values, we can’t really argue against it using religious reasons. We’d need arguments that are valid under the US Constitution and laws. This type of debate encourages these arguments, and shows how these things are bad for EVERYONE, even those who don’t believe in the Torah – how else would you convince these people?Aveirah, you’d be surprised about how well informed R’ Bender is about these things. I think you’d also be surprised if you walked into the RIETS Beis Medrash on any evening during the zman.
As for the left-wing people who call themselves MO, you’re mistaken. They usually follow Avi Weiss, who doesn’t call himself MO, he used the term Open. Even the ones who don’t only make up a tiny part of the MO community. Just like in any community you have outliers, so too MO does. No MO Rav will back them, so they certainly don’t represent a valid view of Modern Orthodoxy.
You mentioned the case of the ex-teacher in Brooklyn. He doesn’t even claim to be MO, he and his family claim to be Chabad. He also claims to halachically be a woman, based on the psak of the Tzitz Eliezer, who ruled that if someone has the surgery, they are halachically the gender they currently have the parts of. While most disagree with this psak, the Tzitz Eliezer certainly was a gadol that may be relied on. My only question is did this person ask his own Rav and receive this psak (based on the T”E), or did he choose on his own to follow it?
Aveirah, your sinas chinam is truly astounding. You will take any chance you can to malign a huge segment of frum Jewry.
Coffee: what do you think shows someone as a Darchei talmud?
Lakewhut – there are too many factors that would go into deciding whether someone is a “Torah Jew”. We would never know all of them. So why bother trying to figure out if someone is more or less than someone else?
Why do people feel the need to try and put limits on what makes up the Yeshiva World? And why even use that term? I think the Torah world would be a much better one to use.
I remember when I graduated high school, one of the boys spoke about what the purpose of a yeshiva is. He said that we could learn Torah outside a yeshiva – get a chavrusah, and learn! He concluded that the reason is to form a bond with a Rebbe. So if you want to define “the Yeshiva World”, I’d say it’s anywhere that you could develop that relationship. I’ve written many times that I learned in Darchei Torah. The bond I formed with R’ Bender shlita and other Rabbeim continues to today.
The Torah world , IMO, encompasses anyone who follows the Torah. It’s more about people, not institutions.Aveirah, not a violation of halacha? The Torah says straight “do not accept bribes”. Deri accepted a lot of money in bribes when he was interior minister.
Later he was convicted of tax fraud. From a halachic perspective, that’s theft and lying.It’s unfortunate that Deri runs it. He has twice been convicted of crimes, yet still clings to his position (despite not being a member of the Knesset).
R’ Shach zt”l broke away from Shas and had some extremely harsh things to say about them.At the end of the day, I trust R’ Schachter to make sure the club is run properly. He is approving it, so I assume he will be on top of things. Having teachers who say things like you mentioned is terrible, and it doesn’t belong in the school. I hope they act accordingly.
Let’s hope that the club has the effect that R’ Schachter intends for it, and that it helps people in this tough situation stay frum!Syag, I got the point. The teacher is not involved with the club. One teacher saying something doesn’t mean the institution is accepting. The debate here was specifically about the club, and whether it’s a good thing or not. My opinion is that it is good, and having a teacher like that only emphasizes this. Opinions like this teacher has need to be combated. That’s what this club will do.
Joseph, we don’t know which one is worse. They’re definitely all wrong.
You also just want to argue about definitions. Look it up in a dictionary. Google pointed me to the Oxford dictionary, and here are the definitions:
Pedophile – a person who is sexually attracted to children.
Homosexual – a person who is sexually attracted to people of their own sex.It says nothing about acting on the attraction, just that the attraction exists. The club is using this definition.
Syag, your blurb only proves the need for the club. It will counter experiences like those, and show them that there is a problem actually having a relationship with someone of the same gender.
Yserbius, I don’t understand your point. What does that have to do with this club?
I don’t think anyone here thinks it’s ok to change our values. I think I am the one who is defending the club the most, and I think it’s specifically because it holds true to our values!
This club is about NOT making being gay your identity. It’s about supporting these individuals so they could stay as frum Jews, and specifically NOT make their orientation the focal point of their lives.Joseph, troll that he is, is trying to equate this club with a club for pedophiles. He has never come across as more ignorant. Nobody is telling pedophiles to be proud of who they are, and trying to offer them support to proudly live that life openly. With gays, that is going on. We need to help these individuals so that they can stay true to the Torah, and follow what Hashem asks of us.
And once more: there is nothing wrong with being gay. There is something wrong with acting on the urges. If a Jew is gay, and never gives in to the urge, and lives a full life of celibacy, would you say there’s something wrong there? He is succeeding in the challenge Hashem has given him! That’s what this club is trying to do. Help them to succeed.
I can’t trace my Mesorah back that far. I know that my parents got it from theirs, who got it from theirs, etc.
My grandmother a”h once told me that when she came to America after WW2, she saw a Rav looking something up in a sefer, and asked him what the sefer was. “A Shulchan Aruch” he told her. She asked what it was – she honestly had no idea there was a sefer that listed all the halachos of how to live our lives! She really thought it was just passed down from parent to child, and that was it! She held so tightly to the way her parents lived, she even argued with my grandfather on certain things (mostly chumros on Pesach) and insisted that they do it the way she remembered from her parents. And this was when she only had them for a short time! Imagine if the Nazis hadn’t killed her family, and she had her parents for a normal amount of time, how much she would have learned from them!
We don’t need to trace the Mesorah back. As long as we trust that it was passed in an unbroken chain, that’s all we need.
Sadly, there are times when the chain was broken, or a new one was started. People who stopped being frum, and a future generation became baalei teshuva. It’s amazing that a new chain was started (or they latched onto the chain of a Rav who taught them!), but sad that the original one ended. Then a few hundred years ago, a movement began which broke a number of chains, and started a new one.Joseph, you claim that “just because someone has taaivas (he doesn’t act upon) for the same gender, does not make them a homosexual, any more than someone who has taaivas for married women (that he doesn’t act upon), it does not make him an adulterer.” Actually, you’re wrong. The definition of a homosexual is someone who is attracted to the same gender. It doesn’t matter whether you act on the attraction or not. An adulterer is only someone who has relations with a married person, other than your own spouse.
There is nothing wrong with admitting that you have this attraction, and need help. Time for Truth, nobody suggested that these people are hanging out with criminals. Even if they are, this club is there to help them. Imagine someone who is part of a gang. He wants to get out of it, so he goes for help. Yes, he’s still a gang member, and still hangs out with the rest of them. Does that mean he doesn’t deserve help leaving them? The purpose of this club is to help them lead a frum lifestyle.
Aveirah, I actually did answer Joseph’s question about a pedophile club. There isn’t a need for it. Joseph differentiated between monetary crimes and homosexuality. He wrote “The guy who committed financial crimes knows its wrong. He doesn’t march in the Embezzlers Pride Parade down Fifth Avenue. He doesn’t write articles in the Y.U. Commentator defending theft like the homosexuals who write in that rag defending their anti-Torah deviancies.”
Yet when I made the same point about pedophiles, he argued it with me. That’s because financial crimes fit his narrative, but pedophiles don’t. He is trying to play it both ways, because that’s Joseph – logic doesn’t matter to him, he is the ultimate troll.Joseph, maybe you don’t understand how logic works.
Joseph, nobody is preaching acceptance for pedophiles. That’s the main difference.
Get-r-dun (should I call you Larry?), it depends on what you mean by acceptance. Do we except that there are homosexuals? Yes, we do. There is nothing wrong with being gay. What is wrong is acting on the urges to be with someone of the same gender.
As I wrote before, we do need more acceptance. The people faced with this challenge need more love and acceptance than most others. They face an extremely difficult challenge in life. Looking down on them for how Hashem created them is 100% wrong. In fact, someone facing this challenge who stays true to Torah values should be applauded. That’s the purpose of the club. To accept the people for how they were created, and to support them in following the derech haTorah.Ubiquitin, I’ll be sure to tell R’ Eli that you think 8 minutes is too long. I know him very well, so I can definitely get him the message!
Time for Truth: I’m not sure why you ask. Yes, I have my own taivos just like everyone else, and I’m sure everyone here also transgresses things at times, sometimes even regularly.
This particular issue, IMO, is one of the most difficult for a frum Jew. With other taivos, we either have alternatives (such as a taivah for treif food – there are delicious options which are kosher), or in time things will be allowed (if a teen has normal teenage urges, they know one day they will likely be married).
When it comes to this, if someone wants to stay frum, what does that mean? It means being condemned to a life alone, without a partner. To never be able to have anything to remove the urge. It’s a terrible situation to be in, and they need support. That doesn’t even take into account the effects of society trying to convince the world that this is all normal, and attacking those who are opposed to this lifestyle.Froggie, I think he meant Torah is open to all Jews. Yes, we have a mesorah, but that doesn’t limit who can learn Torah. What about an orphan? Does he miss out because he may not have a father? A baal teshuvah, whose father doesn’t want him to become frum?
For the question of girls learning Gemara, it’s not so simple. I once posted the name of an article which went through the different views on it. All agree that women aren’t obligated to learn Torah, but many are of the opinion that a woman may learn Gemara if she wants to.
As far as our traditions being 3,000 years old, and not having changed – that is completely incorrect. Chassidus is only a few hundred years old, and it represented a radical shift in beliefs. The impact it had on the frum world as a whole was huge, and it still continues today. There were other movements that came up, but I don’t think any of them had the impact of chassidus.
Another thing within the last 3,000 years is the writing down of Torah she’baal peh. That was a huge change. More recently (after WW2) is the rise of the kollel movement, another thing which had never existed before.We’ve had many changes to our values, but most of the core has remained steady.
This is excellent news. People with these urges have an extremely difficult path ahead of them in life, and they do need support in order to stay frum.
This club, under the guidance of the Roshei Yeshiva, can provide that help, and try to ensure that these boys stay shomer Torah u’mitzvos.dovrosenbaum, I don’t know that your claim is true. Besides, not every place in 5 Towns has the Vaad as its hechsher. Wasn’t there a big fight, where a number of stores claimed the Vaad was basically a mafia organization, and another hechsher was started?
The RCBC is a very reliable hechsher, which can definitely be relied upon. I know that my rebbe, R’ Bender, trusts it. He once asked me who the Rabbonim on the RCBC are, and he told me they are definitely reliable. He also asked me for recommendations on what to order at a restaurant in Teaneck!Ujm you are making things up.
As of the 2020 census, the median household income across the US was $67,521. In NY it was $71,117.
In Kiryas Joel it was $35,437.
The official poverty rate for the country was 11.4%. In NY it was 17.9%.
In Kiryas Joel it was 41.3%.
Can you explain that?