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n0mesorah, regarding R’ Tuvia GOldstein zt”l, I was told by one of his main talmidim that while he himself held an eruv was allowed in Brooklyn, he wouldn’t pasken that way out of respect for R’ Moshe, except for very specific circumstances. He never allowed it to be used openly. The example told to me was that if someone has asthma and needs to carry an inhaler, R’ Tuvia held that it could be kept in your pocket, because it’s not visible. R’ Moshe would have held that one shouldn’t leave the house on Shabbos with it.
Neville, I’ll explain why plenty of people still identify as MO – myself included.
In the chareidi/yeshivish world, people are taught that learning in kollel is the only real option for life. College is viewed as a horrible thing by most yeshivos. People are taught that using the internet is forbidden, unless absolutely necessary to earn a living. Not everyone believes in that. Does it mean that people are lax in their observance of halachah? Absolutely not! But the yeshivish world believes in a cookie cutter system, where everyone must fit the same shape. Chanoch l’naar al pi darko is ignored.
Then we get to the chumros. Chumros for everything, a new chumrah comes out every week for something else. Chumros with no basis in halachah, with no real Rabbonim behind them – but in the yeshivish world, they end up accepted as the norm. People realize that many of these chumros are not really necessary, and don’t want to buy into a system that pushes them.
That’s partially why many don’t want to identify as yeshivish/chareidi.There are plenty of Chabadniks who do believe the Rebbe will come back as Mashiach. Look at the quote I posted earlier, from the Rosh Yeshiva of the Chabad Yeshiva in Cincinnati. Here it is again:
“The constant focus that this concealment is temporary and that at any moment the Rebbe will return and take us out of Galus. This is the greatest source of optimism, excitement and connection. This is the ultimate driving force in the Hiskashrus of a Chassid today. It also creates the true feeling of accountability to the Rebbe, which is so vital and important for every chassid.
…
Iyh we will be reunited with the Rebbe, Vehu Yigaleinu, and there will be no need to have this discussion!”The article is titled “OUR POST GIMMEL TAMMUZ BOCHURIM NEED A REALITY CHECK”, by Rabbi Gershon Avtzon. You can look it up.
lakewhut, I don’t know what you mean when you say Elizabeth isn’t a thing, but they do have an Eruv, overseen by R’ Teitz.
Actually, Joseph, the times we’ve had issues are when someone is making a simcha, and guests come in dressed inappropriately. Our members know better.
As for schools, you’re wrong. Look at the Teaneck area, where they have schools like TABC, Mayanot, and Na’aleh. Pretty much the only school that’s mixed is Frisch, which is more Conservadox – a large number of kids who go there don’t come from Shomer Shabbos homes, so I wouldn’t call them MO. In Teaneck there’s even a more yeshivish place that opened, Heichal HaTorah. So I don’t know where you get your information from, but it’s incorrect.This may be a relevant question, as there is a special brachah to make when seeing someone who is considered a big talmud chacham – which some translate as knowing kol haTorah. Here are some who gedolim have said the brachah could be recited for (not all are living):
Chofetz Chaim
R’ Meir Simcha from Dvinsk
R’ Dovid Karliner
Rogachover Gaon
R’ Ahron Kotler
Steipler Gaon
R’ Shach
R’ Elyashiv
R’ Chaim KanievskyI believe I remember reading that a major Rav had said it could be recited for R’ Shteinman as well, but I can’t seem to find that source now. For those listed above, I have sources for them.
Nowadays, it’s very difficult to find someone who the brachah can be recited for. I happen to have a relative who it may be possible for, but I’ve never asked. He sits and learns all day, actually keeping the same seder as R’ CHaim Kanievsky zt”l did, finishing up kol haTorah each year. But he doesn’t want it publicized, because he doesn’t want to be disturbed from his learning by people coming to ask for brachos.
Aveirah, I looked up the study. It says straight out that they interviewed non-Orthodox people who attend Orthodox synagogues. It also says that only 41% of respondents classified as Modern Orthodox!
If you look at the splits between what they label as Modern Orthodox or Centrist/Right Orthodox, you’ll see the numbers are just fine. It’s Open Orthodox that has the problems… no surprise there.
You talk about the things it doesn’t ask about. I have children in schools now, and I can tell you that tznius is taught just fine. They are taught that ngiah is forbidden. The school has a dress code. The vast majority of students don’t have relationships with the opposite gender. So I don’t know where you get your ideas from.Lakewhut: incorrect. In my shul, which is MO, there absolutely is a requirement that women must dress appropriately when coming to shul. The Rav will admit that the requirements are usually the halachic minimum, so that people aren’t driven away from davening, but they are there. We’ve had times where the Rebbetzin went over to someone to ask her to walk out until she changed, or covered up a bit. We’ve had divorced women who no longer wanted to cover their hair who were told that’s not allowed in the shul.
As for mechitzos, you miss the point of them. It’s not to block men from seeing women. It’s to differentiate the sections for men and women. R’ Moshe held it only needed to be 5 feet tall. It’s just to prevent mingling during davening.Aveirah, what was this 2015 study? Is it the one Joseph loves to quote? It was mentioned by a prominent MO Rav once, but he himself said he never read it, and just told the information by someone who said he had read it. The study itself was never linked to, and I question if it actually exists.
Regarding the things you mentioned, true, there are individuals who don’t keep these things. There are people in every group who don’t keep them – do you really believe that nobody who wears a black hat violates them? No MO Rav will say it’s ok, and to me, that’s where it matters most.I’d say that most of the MO world is to the left of R’ Willig and R’ Schachter, the same way we were all to the left of R’ Chaim Kanievsky. They are huge gedolim, so the majority of ALL frum Jews are to the left of them.
Aveirah, please define what you mean by left MO, as opposed to centrist or right MO. I expect we’d find that we actually agree that there is an element that is separated from Orthodoxy, despite calling themselves Modern Orthodox. I highly doubt you’ll find any Rav who supports the things that this group does, other than possibly YCT “Rabbis”, who don’t really count.
Avram, I agree with you, and I don’t have any issues with the level of participation within the government. My issue is with the chareidim who don’t follow the laws.
It means the government that exists in Israel.
To think that non-Chabadniks wouldn’t yearn for Mashiach without the influence of Chabad is just ridiculous. There is no basis for this whatsoever, and it’s just Chabad once again trying to make themselves more relevant.
As was noted earlier, the Mashiach that Chabad waits for is not the same as what other Jews wait for.
I recently saw an article written by the Rosh Yeshiva of the Chabad yeshiva in Cincinnati. I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. Here are some excerpts:
He is listing some points that Chabad should always keep in mind: “The constant focus that this concealment is temporary and that at any moment the Rebbe will return and take us out of Galus. This is the greatest source of optimism, excitement and connection. This is the ultimate driving force in the Hiskashrus of a Chassid today. It also creates the true feeling of accountability to the Rebbe, which is so vital and important for every chassid.”His conclusion is: “Iyh we will be reunited with the Rebbe, Vehu Yigaleinu, and there will be no need to have this discussion!”
There is another group waiting for someone to return and redeem everyone…
Avira, you missed my point. You can say whatever you want about the formation of the state, but here, today, we should be working with the state. Publicly opposing it all the time and saying how it’s terrible does not accomplish anything except to cause more hatred against frum Jews.
I happen to have R’ Mintz’s book, and looked it up. Here is what he writes:
“We should mention that, under the current conditions, where the government has already been created, most authorities maintain that the situation has changed. With the animosity of the Arabs a reality, dismantling the Israeli government would be extremely dangerous. That is why our focus has become to work within the framework of what we have, and try to make the government and the country as religion-friendly as possible.”
This is something I’ve written about before. Many Rabbonim changed their stance once the State was established. The Religious Zionism of today still yearns for the geulah, but also tries to work within the system that exists.
Avirah, are you in favor of supporting Oorah? Are you aware that they have a float in the Celebrate Israel Parade in NYC every year?
True Zionism will not be gone until Mashiach comes. That is the true Zionism – wanting to be returned to Eretz Yisrael, with the Beis haMikdash, and for galus to end. The true Zionists are the ones who daven every day, who say hamachazir shechinaso l’tziyon.
Avirah, this is the root of our differences.
I am a Zionist, but that doesn’t mean I support the government of the State. I wish the State was run by a religious government, in accordance with halacha. The fact that it isn’t doesn’t mean I have to oppose the very idea of the State of Israel.
Actually, chareidim are partly to blame for the way it is now. When the State was founded, they could have participated, and set up the groundwork for the laws to be based on halacha, but many refused, partially because of the urging from Satmar.
R’ Yoilish HAD to continue to oppose Zionism because of his actions during the Holocaust.
Had the chareidim tried to include religion during the formation of the State, things could be a lot different now.
At the end of the day, I support Jews having their own land, a place where the other nations can’t persecute us for being Jewish. Where the government won’t torture and kill us for practicing our faith. I look at that as a blessing from Hashem. I see the nevuah of “Od yeshvu z’keinim u’z’keinos b’rechovos Yerushalayim…” fulfilled. When R’ Akiva saw a fox on the Har haBayis, he laughed, because one nevuah coming true meant the others would as well. So I, too, can be happy about seeing a nevuah fulfilled, even if it’s not in a way that seems 100% good to me.
So in short – I can separate the government from the State itself. You seem unable to do so.Aveirah, your hatred is showing again.
You are mixing two arguments. If the argument is the Oaths, then it doesn’t matter whether it was religious or anti-religious Zionists who started the state. It would still be forbidden.
If your issue is that it’s run by anti-religious groups, then don’t mix it with the Oaths.Yes, the Ohr Sameach said that the Balfour Declaration nullified the oaths. Even if your argument is correct, and the British no longer being in charge reinstated them, the events would nullify them again – the British turned the question of what to do over to the UN, and the UN voted to have a Jewish state.
You are so blinded by your hatred that you can’t think logically.
Aveirah, so you completely disregard R’ Meir Simcha’s opinion that the Oaths were no longer binding?
DY, I know of no such Halacha.
Joseph, Britain’s vote was irrelevant. They weren’t the rulers anymore – they made the decision to turn it over to the UN for the vote.
As for taking more land, that was AFTER the declaration of the state, a part of a defensive battle.Neville, yes, the attack was unprovoked. The new Israeli government begged for peace, but the Arabs didn’t care.
The rulers of the area agreed to the land being a Jewish homeland. The Arabs didn’t rule them.Neville, there are a few answers to your question.
First, as Marxist noted, the War of Independence was a defensive one. Israel was granted legitimacy by the UN, and they begged their neighbors for peace. The Arabs did not want to listen.
Even if it would have been an offensive war, it may not have been an issue. The Or Sameach said that after the Balfour Declaration, the Three Oaths were no longer in effect. Other Rabbonim said that after the Holocaust, they were no longer in effect, since the nations had broken their part of it.Aveirah, you and I are again having one of those rare occasions where we agree on something – I agree with most of your views on Chabad.
A little while back, I was out of town caring for a sick relative. There was a Chabad family staying in the same place I was (a bikur cholim house), and one Shabbos, the guy decided to try and convert me to Lubavitch. So he began (without my asking him at all), to tell me some of the beliefs of Lubavitch. I interrupted him, and told him, “Look, I’m not interested in becoming a chabadnik. If you want to have a discussion, that’s fine, but then you’ll have to allow me to respond to your views, and tell you the issues I have with them, along with my other issues with Chabad. If you or I feel like we’re uncomfortable with the conversation, we can stop.”
He agreed to this, and then continued telling me his beliefs. I had numerous questions, and told him the halachic issues with his beliefs. (My favorite was when he told me that zman Krias Shema is not really a halacha, it’s a nice thing to do.) Within a few minutes of my starting to tell him my issues, he told me he was uncomfortable and wanted to stop the conversation.
Many Chabadniks limit themselves to learning the Rebbe’s teachings, to the exclusion of everything else. They’ll learn the sichos, read the letters, etc. Ask them to open a Gemara, and they have no idea how to learn it. They’ll only be able to quote the things the Rebbe said about it.
The wife of the guy I mentioned earlier once told me how the Rebbe was “clearly the undisputed leader of his generation!” I replied that R’ Shach zt”l clearly disputed it, as did many others. Just because his own followers viewed him as being the greatest in his generation doesn’t make it true.I finally found an old post by my friend Feif Un (who honestly I don’t speak to as much anymore, since we stopped working together), and I have to give an update. Feif Un told me the end of this story.
He wrote in this thread about how wearing a shirt with a Metallica picture led a kid towards a frum life, and also said he didn’t know where that kid is now. Well, he found out.
Someone he knows is trying to find a shidduch for a middle aged woman. He was asked if he might know anyone, and he thought he might. The person sent over the shidduch resume for the woman.
Feif looked it over, and saw that the name of the woman’s Rav (listed as a reference) was the same as this boy’s name had been. He didn’t think there was any chance it was the same person, but wanted to check, just in case.
He called the Rav, and asked if he did NCSY when he was younger. The Rav confirmed that yes, he did. Feif said, “Wow, I can’t believe it is you!” The Rav replied, “I’m sorry, I don’t think your name sounds familiar. Should I know you?”
Feif replied, “Well, I was wearing a Metallica shirt while playing basketball on Sunday of the Spring Regional Shabbaton…”
The Rav let out a yell, “Of course I remember you! I can’t believe this! I have so much hakaras hatov for you, but I couldn’t remember your name, and never knew where to find you!”
After Feif had encouraged this boy, he went to Yeshiva, then to Israel to learn. He returned to the US and enrolled in YU and RIETS, eventually joining the semichah program. He now has a shul, and is a highly regarding Rav and posek.Given that the original story was posted here, I wanted to share the update, 20 years after the original story had occurred.
One of the reasons for the disagreements relating to music on Lag Baomer night is the thought behind what the day represents. Some opinions hold that we have to keep 33 days of Aveilus. On the 33rd day, we can say that half the day is considered as the entire thing, so we wait until morning. Lag Baomer’s function according to this opinion is just the end of the aveilus.
Another opinion is that Lag Baomer itself has a status of a quasi Yom Tov, where aveilus is forbidden. According to that opinion, you can listen to music at night.Aveirah, I will give you a bracha, based on your post. May you realize the errors of your hashkafos, and do a full teshuva for all you’ve done wrong here.
Aveirah, honestly, I’ve only ever seen one modern person carrying in Flatbush. I’ve seen many chassidim. Maybe not the type who wear a streimel and bekishe, but there are many I know personally, who daven nusach sfard, pronounce their Hebrew with the chassidish pronunciation, and told me they have heterim from a chassidishe Rav.
Aveirah, I wouldn’t say “most”. I would say “some”. I think there are far more chassidim that carry than MO.
There are Rabbonim who hold it is ok, but I don’t think any of them are on the level to argue with R’ Moshe. One who may have been, R’ Tuvia Goldstein zt”l, actually held you could make an eruv, but did not pasken that way in public, out of respect to R’ Moshe.Neville, why would you say only non-MO follows the psak? In general, MO do not use eruvin in Brooklyn or Manhattan. R’ Schachter shlita paskens not to use it, with only one exception that I know of (which I’ll get back to).
The ones who don’t follow R’ Moshe on this issue are mostly chassidim. They’re the ones who are behind this new attempt, and also backed some of the earlier attempts.As for the exception R’ Schachter gave, I only know of one. By Mt. Sinai hospital, there is an eruv around one side of it, allowing people to walk from one building to another. One street is bordered by Central Park, and there is a dead-end a bit further down on the main street the hospital is on, I believe.
I spoke to a friend who was a student of R’ Schachter’s about it, and asked him why he’d allow it, when R’ Moshe was opposed. He told me he’d asked R’ Schachter that himself. The response was, “People are dealing with a difficult enough situation when a loved one is in the hospital, especially over Shabbos. So I looked to see if there was a way to be lenient in this situation. In the end, I found that the situation around the hospital is actually not the same as the rest of the areas R’ Moshe paskened about, and I felt that R’ Moshe himself may have been lenient in this case too.”
My friend also told me that he heard from another close student that R’ Schachter left out one piece when he responded. He was so scared to go against a psak of R’ Moshe, even when he felt that he wasn’t really contradicting it, that he fasted before issuing the psak.I know who Rebdoniel is. He was not a straight convert, it was a giyur l’chumrah. He actually doesn’t really follow OO anymore. He became a serious learner, and is now a Rabbi. I believe he specializes in things related to Chevra Kadisha.
Neville, Mentsch brought back the forum you know and love – the bashing of MO for no reason, with little to no truth in it.
I was told that R’ Moshe’s reason for allowing Eruvin in Queens but not in Brooklyn is because of the way the boroughs are viewed. If you mail a letter to someone in Brooklyn, you address it to “Brooklyn, NY”, no matter which area in Brooklyn it is. Nobody writes “Boro Park”, “Midwood”, etc.
In Queens, the common practice is to write the name of the area – it will be addressed to “Kew Gardens”, “Kew Garden Hills”, etc.
So R’ Moshe allowed eruvin in Queens, but each section has its own, and they also have to make eruvin to allow for crossing from one area to another. That is indeed how it’s done in Queens.This whole discussion is really sickening. Our resident haters, Joseph and Aveirah, are once again looking for reasons to insult someone who they don’t agree with. Why do you need to know the exact name of the Rav who gave the psak? Does it impact you at all? Is anybody asking you to do something similar, or asking you to accept R’ Mirvis as your posek? No, so why do you care?
The way that you look for reasons to insult other Jews is disgusting. True sinas chinam.R’ Mirvis stated that he consulted with other Rabbonim, and did not make the decision to attend on his own. The reason for the heter was eivah. He also noted that when the invitation begins with “His Majesty commands”, it allows for more leniency due to eivah, as opposed to the word “requests”.
Aveirah, look up what meforshim say that means.
The Riva says the left/right mentioned in the pasuk refers to Rabbonim telling us not to do a mitzvah such as Shofar on Shabbos, or Arba Minim on Shabbos. It only refers to a mitzvah that they are telling us NOT to do.
The Yerushalmi says in Horios that the pasuk means only if they say right is right and left is left. If they say otherwise, you do not listen.
There are many shitos against Rashi. Indeed, both Rambam and Ramban do not pasken like Rashi in this regard. There is a Sifre which Rashi bases it on, but again, many question the Sifre, and there are Gemoros in both Bavli and Yerushalmi that say otherwise. R’ Ovadia Yosef reconciles the two views as I mentioned above – you have to confront the Rav if you think he erred. Until you confront him, you do not listen. The Yad HaMelech states that if you listen when you think he erred just because you think you have to listen, you are required to bring a korbon chatas. Only after confronting the Rav with the opposing view, and he stands by what he said, are you required to listen.
Avram, I tried to find it, and I realized I was mistaken. It wasn’t R’ Tendler, it was R’ Rakefet, who also was in BMG during its early days. Here is the exact quote:
“When I learned in Lakewood, the only one who wore a black hat was Reb Aharon Kotler. Even the old mashgiach, Reb Nosson Wachtfogel, wouldn’t dare wear a black hat. No one wore black pants and white shirts. It was unheard of. Everyone dressed different and stylish.”AAQ: You make a great point.
There was an interview years ago with R’ Yosef Tendler zt”l, who was one of the early students of R’ Ahron Kotler in Lakewood. He was asked if the talmidim at that time wore black hats. He said that no, only the Rosh Yeshiva and Mashgiach did, and it would have been considered disrespectful for the boys to wear them. It would appear that they held themselves on the same level.
How times have changed…N0mesorah, the Mishnah Berurah disagrees with you, and says we do worry about tarti d’sasri.
וי”א דבצבור יש להקל להתפלל מעריב מבע”י אף אם התפלל מנחה אחר פלג המנחה ונ”ל שאין לסמוך על זה רק כשהוא מתפלל מעריב עכ”פ בבין השמשות ובשעת הדחקThere’s a big issue with the 7:00 early Shabbos minyanim. If you’re going to daven Kabbalas Shabbos before shkiah, you need to daven Mincha before plag. Plag today in Brooklyn is 6:22, so Mincha starting at 6:10 or so should work.
Jalapeno dip
Roasted garlic dipAveirah, as far as Lo Sassur and Rashi’s comment on left/right:
The Riva says the left/right mentioned in the pasuk refers to Rabbonim telling us not to do a mitzvah such as Shofar on Shabbos, or Arba Minim on Shabbos. It only refers to a mitzvah that they are telling us NOT to do.The Yerushalmi says in Horios that the pasuk means only if they say right is right and left is left. If they say otherwise, you do not listen.
There are many shitos against Rashi. Indeed, both Rambam and Ramban do not pasken like Rashi in this regard. There is a Sifre which Rashi bases it on, but again, many question the Sifre, and there are Gemoros in both bavli and Yerushalmi that say otherwise. R’ Ovadia Yosef reconciles the two views as I mentioned above – you have to confront the Rav if you think he erred. Until you confront him, you do not listen. The Yad HaMelech states that if you listen when you think he erred just because you think you have to listen, you are required to bring a korbon chatas. Only after confronting the Rav with the opposing view, and he stands by what he said, are you required to listen.
Brachos are definitely not a “magic pill”. It doesn’t accomplish much, unless the Rav actually davens or does something as a zchus for the individual.
I have a relative who is a real kabbalist. He doesn’t advertise himself, doesn’t accept money to meet with people, or anything like that. He just sits and learns all day. I was once at his house visiting, when someone came in to see him, who was having a difficult time. She explained her situation to him. He sat there, with his eyes closed, for a minute, without saying anything. Then he opened his eyes, and said to her, “IY”H Hashem will help.” She left the house. My relative turned to us and asked to be excused for a few moments.
His son said to me, “You know why he sat there? A brachah on its own doesn’t do anything. He was thinking what he could take on as a zchus for this person. But he has so many others he’s doing things for, that he needs to figure out what he can do, and when. Now he excused himself because he’s going to his study daven and cry for half an hour or so for this person.”That is what matters – actions, and tefillah. Just saying something nice doesn’t do much.
Midwest, I heard a different reason for Shatzer closing.
It’s not from Ruach Revival, it’s from Ruach – they’re not the same.
You can get it on the Dartmouth Jewish Sound Archive, although you’ll need to register an account first.I actually agree with Aveirah for once. Anxiety can be crippling for some, and it’s hard to understand what they go through.
That said, I disagree about it being something in modern times. If anything, in modern times, we have medications to treat it, so you may only see someone’s anxiety being an issue when it breaks through the medication. I’d think that 100 years ago, people with bad anxiety were just considered to be crazy, because with no treatment, they always seemed “weird”.I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve had to use the phone on Shabbos. I’ve even had to drive on Shabbos. When you have a family member with health problems, this is the reality.
Doing this does not require teshuva, as you did nothing wrong. In fact, if you push things off until after Shabbos, that would probably require teshuva, because you prioritized Shabbos over a person’s life.
After one of the first times I had to go with someone to the hospital on Shabbos, I was discussing with my Rav about how I did things. I old him that I didn’t know if I did everything properly, minimizing the melachah as much as possible.
He responded to me that it’s easier when you know something will happen – for example, if your wife is due to give birth, and there’s a good chance it will happen on Shabbos, you can pre-arrange for a car, explaining that payment will be given after Shabbos, ask for them to open doors, etc.
When it’s an unplanned emergency, you just react, and there’s nothing wrong with that. In a case of pikuach nefesh, you do what you think is best to help the person. You’re in the ER and need a nurse, and you don’t see one at the desk? You can ring the call bell. His words were, “Don’t overthink things.” Trying to minimize melachah can cause the level of care to be less.Joseph, I didn’t “consummate” any wine.
I had about half a cup of Moscato. I know about how much alcohol one can consume and legally be allowed to drive. I drink less than that amount to be extra careful. I also drink it early in the meal, so that by the time I’m ready to drive, there is no doubt that I’m fine.I had a very nice Purim. I happened to be in Far Rockaway for part of the day, and was able to go see my Rebbe, R’ Bender. I had the seudah with a family member. I drank a small amount of wine so that I’d be able to drive home after. My wife and daughter enjoyed it as well.
Shimon, looking for the exact source led me to an OU article, which lists a few sources for only drinking wine: Hitorerut Teshuva O.C. 3:491, Nitei Gavriel p.83, Rambam Megilla 2:15
The Rambam also notes that the drinking is part of the seudah, not independent of it.
כֵּיצַד חוֹבַת סְעֻדָּה זוֹ. שֶׁיֹּאכַל בָּשָׂר וִיתַקֵּן סְעֻדָּה נָאָה כְּפִי אֲשֶׁר תִּמְצָא יָדוֹ. וְשׁוֹתֶה יַיִן עַד שֶׁיִּשְׁתַּכֵּר וְיֵרָדֵם בְּשִׁכְרוּתוֹ.Additionally, the Orchos Chaim says, “To be thoroughly drunk is completely forbidden. There is no greater sin than this, for it leads to adultery, bloodshed, and many other sins besides. Rather, you should drink a little more than you are accustomed to.”