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Joseph’s newest made-up point – that Conservative Judaism is a breakaway from MO. Sorry Joe, completely false. Conservative is actually an offshoot of Reform, from people who thought that Reform went too far. Hence the name “Conservative” – in their view, they were the more religious ones, keeping more observance than the Reform they came from.
Modern Orthodoxy was never an official movement that was founded by anyone. It was something that came organically, and the label only came in response to Chareidi Judaism.Yserbius, no, a Rebbe does not leave his responsibilities to someone else. It says “Aseh L’CHA Rav”, choose one for yourself, not that the Rebbe is chosen for you.
A Rebbe is who he is because people choose to follow him. If people choose to follow his son, that’s their decision. In the early days of chassidus, most Rebbes did not have their sons take over. It’s only become an issue more recently, when chassidic groups control vast amounts of money, that the sons would insist on taking over.
Even R’ Yoilish didn’t want to become Rebbe at first, but people insisted he do so.Lostspark: absolutely! I’ve come to the conclusion that sechel is woefully misguided, and doesn’t understand what he reads. Whether this is his fault or his teachers’ fault, I don’t know.
sechel, can you please show me a source from anyone before the Baal Shem Tov who says anything about chassidus as the Besht understood it? Anything about davening and chassidus being the best way to come to love and fear Hashem?
The learning of only Chabad seforim isn’t the only thing. I’ve been at Chabad bar mitzvahs and weddings. They make a whole ordeal out of reading the Rebbe’s letter! For those who don’t know, the Rebbe had a standard letter that he wrote wishing a mazal tov on a simcha. At Chabad smachot, as part of the ceremony, they ask everyone to rise, and then they read the letter. I was at a bar mitzvah once, at a table with non-Chabad neighbors of the family. Most of us did not stand, and the MC (it wasn’t the father of the bar mitzvah boy) got upset at us and called out our table publicly for not standing.
I though the whole thing was bizarre.Joseph, sometimes it’s not hard to figure out. A guy who is single, maybe getting older, never been on a date in his life… for his friends, it’s not difficult to realize something is going on.
This isn’t an airport. No need to announce your departure.
Joseph, I agree that nobody SHOULD be bothered by it. Sadly, there are those out there who are, and mistreat people for it.
I heard one person say that he went to his Rosh Yeshiva and tell him he had these urges, and asked for help. The RY yelled at him and called him terrible names, then kicked him out of the yeshiva.
That is the kind of attitude that just drives these people completely off.I will admit, I often eat before davening. I have a medication I have to take first thing in the morning, and if I don’t take a bite with it, it can cause horrible nausea. So I take a handful of cheerios or chex and eat it when I take the medication, then I go to daven. Obviously this is not ideal, and is only for health purposes.
My apologies for my last point – I misunderstood what SSA stood for. Once I realized, I fully agree with what was said.
I’ve been dealing with helping a relative apply for disability benefits, and I’ve seen SSA printed in letters way too much lately, referring to Social Security. I thought it meant someone living on government benefits, learning all day without working at all, relying on the government to support him, and not wanting a family so that it wouldn’t interfere with his learning.
Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding.sechel, not everyone views learning chassidus as a positive. Also, quoting the Shulchan Aruch haRav to defend Chabad is like painting a target around an arrow. I don’t know of anyone other than Chabadniks that actually uses it to pasken halachos. It was written by a Chabad rebbe, so Chabadniks follow it. Almost nobody else does.
n0mesorah, no, I didn’t misunderstand. The role of the tzaddik is a key element in the original teachings of the Besht.
As for tefillin on Chol Hamoed, it’s not just the Zohar. The Gra also held that one shouldn’t wear tefillin.
Aveirah, you should read about R’ Belsky’s heter for chalav stam, which actually removes one of the issues that some had with R’ Moshe’s heter.
Mods, is a link to the OU’s site allowed? https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/rav-moshe-ztls-heter-of-cholov-stam-revisited/Chassidus as a whole has issues with how they view the Rebbe, or as he’s called in the teachings of the Besht, the Tzaddik. He taught that the tzaddik is born without a yetzer harah, and therefore is empowered to descend into sinful situations in order to elevate others. The Tzaddik is incapable of sin. This is obviously wrong, as it says in Koheles that everyone does wrong at some point.
n0mesorah, there are many who claim that R’ Moshe once drank chalav hacompanies and when he realized, he vomited it up.
A friend of mine who was a student of R’ Dovid Feinstein zt”l once asked him if this story was true or not. R’ Dovid laughed, and said, “If my father ever threw up the milk, it’s because it was spoiled. He never threw up just because it wasn’t chalav Yisrael!”EEEE: when I was in Darchei Torah, we once had a Shabbos seudah with R’ Reisman, from the Agudah of Long Island. There was a bottle of soda on the table that was sealed, and a few boys started arguing that nobody should open it, because some held that it’s assur. R’ Reisman heard them, said “Pass me the bottle, please!” and opened it. He then passed it back, and told them to enjoy it.
jdb, where did you hear such things from? That we should celebrate “tzaddikim” who remain celibate their whole lives? What about the mitzvah of Pru u’rvu? The fact that if you don’t have children for 10 years then you can divorce your wife?
And celebrate people on SSA? Seriously? I’d love to know which “major Rabbonim” you heard this from.
A few points on this:
When the Torah uses the word Toevah in reference to the lifestyle, it only refers to men. Women have a separate issur. The main difference is that for women I don’t believe there is a death penalty, and it’s definitely not yehareg v’al yaavor.Aveirah says that being mechalel Shabbos doesn’t go against the essence of a person. True, because Shabbos isn’t something that relates to a person. But it does relate to creation. We say in Friday night’s davening that Shabbos is the tachlis of creation. The entire creation relies on Shabbos – I’d say that violating it would go against the normal fabric of things, just as homosexuality does.
The world was built on truth. I’m sure we all know it says that Emes is the foundation. Cheating in business is the opposite of that. Again, it’s something that goes against the very essence of the world and creation.
sechel, regarding the Gemara in Sanhedin, I believe Rashi explains that when it says “from the dead”, it doesn’t mean that Mashiach will be revived, it means that he already came.
In any case, if you’re going to use that Gemara, then it definitely isn’t the Rebbe – it’s Daniel!Here’s a similar question that was posted a number of years ago: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/relying-on-a-heter-of-someone-else
I actually asked my Rav about this question. He holds that a dishwasher cannot be kashered. He told me that as long as my friend has a psak from a reliable Rav, I don’t have to worry, and I can rely on the psak he received.
Read R’ Bender’s sefer on Chumash, from last week’s parsha, to see what a Rebbe at Darchei held about chalav stam. I’ve posted the story before, and it’s something everyone should know.
Aveirah, you’re missing my point. People want to accept those chumros? Fine, not a problem. But don’t start putting down those who don’t keep them. As for where my information comes from, it’s from my own observances and experiences. As for you… you know how when some people go OTD, they become the biggest antisemites? You’re the same way with MO. You decided it wasn’t for you, and left that group, and became so virulently against it that you just can’t possibly think of any good in it. Get over it!
Chaim Berlin: The point isn’t whether people always go like R’ Moshe or not. The point is that eating chalav stam is not assur, but baal tashchis is. This guy put his chumrah over an actual halachah.
There are many chumros that the yeshivish world keeps, and that’s fine. I don’t look at people who keep chumros as fanatics. My issue is when they expect everyone else to keep them. Here are some examples:
Mixed seating at simchos – there is no halachic need for separate seating, yet many yeshivish people expect everyone to do it, and will tell you that there’s something wrong with having mixed seating.Tznius – many, many chumros were instituted. Knees and elbows covered isn’t enough anymore. Now you need everything down to the toes. Leggings aren’t ok, only tights are.
Chalav Yisrael – it’s a chumrah, yet this gets pushed by so many people. I even know of one person who threw out a Reese’s bar rather than give it to someone who eats chalav stam.
I don’t view yeshivish people as being more frum than me. It’s a different derech, and both are valid. I don’t try and push my derech on others. I’d like the same respect in return.
n0mesorah, regarding R’ Tuvia GOldstein zt”l, I was told by one of his main talmidim that while he himself held an eruv was allowed in Brooklyn, he wouldn’t pasken that way out of respect for R’ Moshe, except for very specific circumstances. He never allowed it to be used openly. The example told to me was that if someone has asthma and needs to carry an inhaler, R’ Tuvia held that it could be kept in your pocket, because it’s not visible. R’ Moshe would have held that one shouldn’t leave the house on Shabbos with it.
Neville, I’ll explain why plenty of people still identify as MO – myself included.
In the chareidi/yeshivish world, people are taught that learning in kollel is the only real option for life. College is viewed as a horrible thing by most yeshivos. People are taught that using the internet is forbidden, unless absolutely necessary to earn a living. Not everyone believes in that. Does it mean that people are lax in their observance of halachah? Absolutely not! But the yeshivish world believes in a cookie cutter system, where everyone must fit the same shape. Chanoch l’naar al pi darko is ignored.
Then we get to the chumros. Chumros for everything, a new chumrah comes out every week for something else. Chumros with no basis in halachah, with no real Rabbonim behind them – but in the yeshivish world, they end up accepted as the norm. People realize that many of these chumros are not really necessary, and don’t want to buy into a system that pushes them.
That’s partially why many don’t want to identify as yeshivish/chareidi.There are plenty of Chabadniks who do believe the Rebbe will come back as Mashiach. Look at the quote I posted earlier, from the Rosh Yeshiva of the Chabad Yeshiva in Cincinnati. Here it is again:
“The constant focus that this concealment is temporary and that at any moment the Rebbe will return and take us out of Galus. This is the greatest source of optimism, excitement and connection. This is the ultimate driving force in the Hiskashrus of a Chassid today. It also creates the true feeling of accountability to the Rebbe, which is so vital and important for every chassid.
…
Iyh we will be reunited with the Rebbe, Vehu Yigaleinu, and there will be no need to have this discussion!”The article is titled “OUR POST GIMMEL TAMMUZ BOCHURIM NEED A REALITY CHECK”, by Rabbi Gershon Avtzon. You can look it up.
lakewhut, I don’t know what you mean when you say Elizabeth isn’t a thing, but they do have an Eruv, overseen by R’ Teitz.
Actually, Joseph, the times we’ve had issues are when someone is making a simcha, and guests come in dressed inappropriately. Our members know better.
As for schools, you’re wrong. Look at the Teaneck area, where they have schools like TABC, Mayanot, and Na’aleh. Pretty much the only school that’s mixed is Frisch, which is more Conservadox – a large number of kids who go there don’t come from Shomer Shabbos homes, so I wouldn’t call them MO. In Teaneck there’s even a more yeshivish place that opened, Heichal HaTorah. So I don’t know where you get your information from, but it’s incorrect.This may be a relevant question, as there is a special brachah to make when seeing someone who is considered a big talmud chacham – which some translate as knowing kol haTorah. Here are some who gedolim have said the brachah could be recited for (not all are living):
Chofetz Chaim
R’ Meir Simcha from Dvinsk
R’ Dovid Karliner
Rogachover Gaon
R’ Ahron Kotler
Steipler Gaon
R’ Shach
R’ Elyashiv
R’ Chaim KanievskyI believe I remember reading that a major Rav had said it could be recited for R’ Shteinman as well, but I can’t seem to find that source now. For those listed above, I have sources for them.
Nowadays, it’s very difficult to find someone who the brachah can be recited for. I happen to have a relative who it may be possible for, but I’ve never asked. He sits and learns all day, actually keeping the same seder as R’ CHaim Kanievsky zt”l did, finishing up kol haTorah each year. But he doesn’t want it publicized, because he doesn’t want to be disturbed from his learning by people coming to ask for brachos.
Aveirah, I looked up the study. It says straight out that they interviewed non-Orthodox people who attend Orthodox synagogues. It also says that only 41% of respondents classified as Modern Orthodox!
If you look at the splits between what they label as Modern Orthodox or Centrist/Right Orthodox, you’ll see the numbers are just fine. It’s Open Orthodox that has the problems… no surprise there.
You talk about the things it doesn’t ask about. I have children in schools now, and I can tell you that tznius is taught just fine. They are taught that ngiah is forbidden. The school has a dress code. The vast majority of students don’t have relationships with the opposite gender. So I don’t know where you get your ideas from.Lakewhut: incorrect. In my shul, which is MO, there absolutely is a requirement that women must dress appropriately when coming to shul. The Rav will admit that the requirements are usually the halachic minimum, so that people aren’t driven away from davening, but they are there. We’ve had times where the Rebbetzin went over to someone to ask her to walk out until she changed, or covered up a bit. We’ve had divorced women who no longer wanted to cover their hair who were told that’s not allowed in the shul.
As for mechitzos, you miss the point of them. It’s not to block men from seeing women. It’s to differentiate the sections for men and women. R’ Moshe held it only needed to be 5 feet tall. It’s just to prevent mingling during davening.Aveirah, what was this 2015 study? Is it the one Joseph loves to quote? It was mentioned by a prominent MO Rav once, but he himself said he never read it, and just told the information by someone who said he had read it. The study itself was never linked to, and I question if it actually exists.
Regarding the things you mentioned, true, there are individuals who don’t keep these things. There are people in every group who don’t keep them – do you really believe that nobody who wears a black hat violates them? No MO Rav will say it’s ok, and to me, that’s where it matters most.I’d say that most of the MO world is to the left of R’ Willig and R’ Schachter, the same way we were all to the left of R’ Chaim Kanievsky. They are huge gedolim, so the majority of ALL frum Jews are to the left of them.
Aveirah, please define what you mean by left MO, as opposed to centrist or right MO. I expect we’d find that we actually agree that there is an element that is separated from Orthodoxy, despite calling themselves Modern Orthodox. I highly doubt you’ll find any Rav who supports the things that this group does, other than possibly YCT “Rabbis”, who don’t really count.
Avram, I agree with you, and I don’t have any issues with the level of participation within the government. My issue is with the chareidim who don’t follow the laws.
It means the government that exists in Israel.
To think that non-Chabadniks wouldn’t yearn for Mashiach without the influence of Chabad is just ridiculous. There is no basis for this whatsoever, and it’s just Chabad once again trying to make themselves more relevant.
As was noted earlier, the Mashiach that Chabad waits for is not the same as what other Jews wait for.
I recently saw an article written by the Rosh Yeshiva of the Chabad yeshiva in Cincinnati. I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. Here are some excerpts:
He is listing some points that Chabad should always keep in mind: “The constant focus that this concealment is temporary and that at any moment the Rebbe will return and take us out of Galus. This is the greatest source of optimism, excitement and connection. This is the ultimate driving force in the Hiskashrus of a Chassid today. It also creates the true feeling of accountability to the Rebbe, which is so vital and important for every chassid.”His conclusion is: “Iyh we will be reunited with the Rebbe, Vehu Yigaleinu, and there will be no need to have this discussion!”
There is another group waiting for someone to return and redeem everyone…
Avira, you missed my point. You can say whatever you want about the formation of the state, but here, today, we should be working with the state. Publicly opposing it all the time and saying how it’s terrible does not accomplish anything except to cause more hatred against frum Jews.
I happen to have R’ Mintz’s book, and looked it up. Here is what he writes:
“We should mention that, under the current conditions, where the government has already been created, most authorities maintain that the situation has changed. With the animosity of the Arabs a reality, dismantling the Israeli government would be extremely dangerous. That is why our focus has become to work within the framework of what we have, and try to make the government and the country as religion-friendly as possible.”
This is something I’ve written about before. Many Rabbonim changed their stance once the State was established. The Religious Zionism of today still yearns for the geulah, but also tries to work within the system that exists.
Avirah, are you in favor of supporting Oorah? Are you aware that they have a float in the Celebrate Israel Parade in NYC every year?
True Zionism will not be gone until Mashiach comes. That is the true Zionism – wanting to be returned to Eretz Yisrael, with the Beis haMikdash, and for galus to end. The true Zionists are the ones who daven every day, who say hamachazir shechinaso l’tziyon.
Avirah, this is the root of our differences.
I am a Zionist, but that doesn’t mean I support the government of the State. I wish the State was run by a religious government, in accordance with halacha. The fact that it isn’t doesn’t mean I have to oppose the very idea of the State of Israel.
Actually, chareidim are partly to blame for the way it is now. When the State was founded, they could have participated, and set up the groundwork for the laws to be based on halacha, but many refused, partially because of the urging from Satmar.
R’ Yoilish HAD to continue to oppose Zionism because of his actions during the Holocaust.
Had the chareidim tried to include religion during the formation of the State, things could be a lot different now.
At the end of the day, I support Jews having their own land, a place where the other nations can’t persecute us for being Jewish. Where the government won’t torture and kill us for practicing our faith. I look at that as a blessing from Hashem. I see the nevuah of “Od yeshvu z’keinim u’z’keinos b’rechovos Yerushalayim…” fulfilled. When R’ Akiva saw a fox on the Har haBayis, he laughed, because one nevuah coming true meant the others would as well. So I, too, can be happy about seeing a nevuah fulfilled, even if it’s not in a way that seems 100% good to me.
So in short – I can separate the government from the State itself. You seem unable to do so.Aveirah, your hatred is showing again.
You are mixing two arguments. If the argument is the Oaths, then it doesn’t matter whether it was religious or anti-religious Zionists who started the state. It would still be forbidden.
If your issue is that it’s run by anti-religious groups, then don’t mix it with the Oaths.Yes, the Ohr Sameach said that the Balfour Declaration nullified the oaths. Even if your argument is correct, and the British no longer being in charge reinstated them, the events would nullify them again – the British turned the question of what to do over to the UN, and the UN voted to have a Jewish state.
You are so blinded by your hatred that you can’t think logically.
Aveirah, so you completely disregard R’ Meir Simcha’s opinion that the Oaths were no longer binding?
DY, I know of no such Halacha.
Joseph, Britain’s vote was irrelevant. They weren’t the rulers anymore – they made the decision to turn it over to the UN for the vote.
As for taking more land, that was AFTER the declaration of the state, a part of a defensive battle.Neville, yes, the attack was unprovoked. The new Israeli government begged for peace, but the Arabs didn’t care.
The rulers of the area agreed to the land being a Jewish homeland. The Arabs didn’t rule them.Neville, there are a few answers to your question.
First, as Marxist noted, the War of Independence was a defensive one. Israel was granted legitimacy by the UN, and they begged their neighbors for peace. The Arabs did not want to listen.
Even if it would have been an offensive war, it may not have been an issue. The Or Sameach said that after the Balfour Declaration, the Three Oaths were no longer in effect. Other Rabbonim said that after the Holocaust, they were no longer in effect, since the nations had broken their part of it.Aveirah, you and I are again having one of those rare occasions where we agree on something – I agree with most of your views on Chabad.
A little while back, I was out of town caring for a sick relative. There was a Chabad family staying in the same place I was (a bikur cholim house), and one Shabbos, the guy decided to try and convert me to Lubavitch. So he began (without my asking him at all), to tell me some of the beliefs of Lubavitch. I interrupted him, and told him, “Look, I’m not interested in becoming a chabadnik. If you want to have a discussion, that’s fine, but then you’ll have to allow me to respond to your views, and tell you the issues I have with them, along with my other issues with Chabad. If you or I feel like we’re uncomfortable with the conversation, we can stop.”
He agreed to this, and then continued telling me his beliefs. I had numerous questions, and told him the halachic issues with his beliefs. (My favorite was when he told me that zman Krias Shema is not really a halacha, it’s a nice thing to do.) Within a few minutes of my starting to tell him my issues, he told me he was uncomfortable and wanted to stop the conversation.
Many Chabadniks limit themselves to learning the Rebbe’s teachings, to the exclusion of everything else. They’ll learn the sichos, read the letters, etc. Ask them to open a Gemara, and they have no idea how to learn it. They’ll only be able to quote the things the Rebbe said about it.
The wife of the guy I mentioned earlier once told me how the Rebbe was “clearly the undisputed leader of his generation!” I replied that R’ Shach zt”l clearly disputed it, as did many others. Just because his own followers viewed him as being the greatest in his generation doesn’t make it true.I finally found an old post by my friend Feif Un (who honestly I don’t speak to as much anymore, since we stopped working together), and I have to give an update. Feif Un told me the end of this story.
He wrote in this thread about how wearing a shirt with a Metallica picture led a kid towards a frum life, and also said he didn’t know where that kid is now. Well, he found out.
Someone he knows is trying to find a shidduch for a middle aged woman. He was asked if he might know anyone, and he thought he might. The person sent over the shidduch resume for the woman.
Feif looked it over, and saw that the name of the woman’s Rav (listed as a reference) was the same as this boy’s name had been. He didn’t think there was any chance it was the same person, but wanted to check, just in case.
He called the Rav, and asked if he did NCSY when he was younger. The Rav confirmed that yes, he did. Feif said, “Wow, I can’t believe it is you!” The Rav replied, “I’m sorry, I don’t think your name sounds familiar. Should I know you?”
Feif replied, “Well, I was wearing a Metallica shirt while playing basketball on Sunday of the Spring Regional Shabbaton…”
The Rav let out a yell, “Of course I remember you! I can’t believe this! I have so much hakaras hatov for you, but I couldn’t remember your name, and never knew where to find you!”
After Feif had encouraged this boy, he went to Yeshiva, then to Israel to learn. He returned to the US and enrolled in YU and RIETS, eventually joining the semichah program. He now has a shul, and is a highly regarding Rav and posek.Given that the original story was posted here, I wanted to share the update, 20 years after the original story had occurred.
One of the reasons for the disagreements relating to music on Lag Baomer night is the thought behind what the day represents. Some opinions hold that we have to keep 33 days of Aveilus. On the 33rd day, we can say that half the day is considered as the entire thing, so we wait until morning. Lag Baomer’s function according to this opinion is just the end of the aveilus.
Another opinion is that Lag Baomer itself has a status of a quasi Yom Tov, where aveilus is forbidden. According to that opinion, you can listen to music at night.Aveirah, I will give you a bracha, based on your post. May you realize the errors of your hashkafos, and do a full teshuva for all you’ve done wrong here.
Aveirah, honestly, I’ve only ever seen one modern person carrying in Flatbush. I’ve seen many chassidim. Maybe not the type who wear a streimel and bekishe, but there are many I know personally, who daven nusach sfard, pronounce their Hebrew with the chassidish pronunciation, and told me they have heterim from a chassidishe Rav.