DaMoshe

Yserbius: As I said, Chassidus is more accepted today because they moved away from the teachings of the Besht, and back towards traditional Judaism. Rabbonim writing seforim on the Torah is more in line with traditional Judaism than the teachings of the Besht.

Chabad is the closest to what the Besht originally taught. IMO, that’s why it’s so controversial. The teachings of the Besht were extremely controversial, and chassidus was only accepted over time because it moved away from most of those teachings. Since Chabad is closer than other chassidic sects, it’s viewed as more problematic.
Yserbius, you label the Tzemach Tzedek and the Tanya as “legitimate”. Why? Many of the teachings within those have no mesorah behind them, and incorporate teachings of the Besht that were radical departures from traditional Judaism.
I once wanted to see if I could at least gain an understanding of Chassidus, so I found a chavrusah, a chassidish man, to learn Tanya with. I had a number of questions on it, and didn’t hesitate to ask them. After a few weeks, he told me he didn’t feel comfortable learning with me, as I was causing him to start doubting chassidus as well.
It only reinforced my belief that if someone who learns only chassidus would actually dig deep into the traditional sources (Rishonim, early acharonim, etc.), they’d realize that there are plenty of conflicts between the two.

You can drive for Uber or Lyft, although that isn’t limited time invested., and it would require a smartphone.
Take some shifts as a cashier at your local grocery.

sechel, things like that are why I am adamantly opposed to chassidus in general. Torah was given at Har Sinai to the entire nation. One of the reasons was that so nobody could deny it. The Besht’s teachings represented a radical change from traditional Judaism. So why were they “revealed” to him and him alone? He claimed he ascended to the Heavens and learned with Achiya haShiloni. Do we have records of anyone else ever doing such a thing? Tanaim? Amoraim? No, we don’t. So why would the Besht be able to do such a thing?

BTW, you took that line out of context. Here is the full text of the letter that the Besht wrote:
“I asked the Messiah: When will you come? And he answered me: Hereby you will know, when your teachings will become known and revealed in the world, and your wellsprings will burst forth to the furthest extreme, that which I taught you and you comprehended, and they too will be able to engage in unifications and elevations as you can, and then all the husks will be removed, and it will be a time of favor and salvation. And I wondered about this, and I was greatly distressed about the great length of time: When can this be? But what I learned when I was there is three charms and three holy names. They are easily learned and explained. And I thought: It is possible that with this people my age will also be able to reach a level like mine.”

Yserbius, almost nobody follows the teachings of the Besht anymore. Chassidus as the Besht intended it is long gone.
I was told this by a Rebbe of mine, who is himself a chassid.

Joseph’s newest made-up point – that Conservative Judaism is a breakaway from MO. Sorry Joe, completely false. Conservative is actually an offshoot of Reform, from people who thought that Reform went too far. Hence the name “Conservative” – in their view, they were the more religious ones, keeping more observance than the Reform they came from.
Modern Orthodoxy was never an official movement that was founded by anyone. It was something that came organically, and the label only came in response to Chareidi Judaism.

Lostspark: absolutely! I’ve come to the conclusion that sechel is woefully misguided, and doesn’t understand what he reads. Whether this is his fault or his teachers’ fault, I don’t know.

The learning of only Chabad seforim isn’t the only thing. I’ve been at Chabad bar mitzvahs and weddings. They make a whole ordeal out of reading the Rebbe’s letter! For those who don’t know, the Rebbe had a standard letter that he wrote wishing a mazal tov on a simcha. At Chabad smachot, as part of the ceremony, they ask everyone to rise, and then they read the letter. I was at a bar mitzvah once, at a table with non-Chabad neighbors of the family. Most of us did not stand, and the MC (it wasn’t the father of the bar mitzvah boy) got upset at us and called out our table publicly for not standing.
I though the whole thing was bizarre.

This isn’t an airport. No need to announce your departure.

I will admit, I often eat before davening. I have a medication I have to take first thing in the morning, and if I don’t take a bite with it, it can cause horrible nausea. So I take a handful of cheerios or chex and eat it when I take the medication, then I go to daven. Obviously this is not ideal, and is only for health purposes.

sechel, not everyone views learning chassidus as a positive. Also, quoting the Shulchan Aruch haRav to defend Chabad is like painting a target around an arrow. I don’t know of anyone other than Chabadniks that actually uses it to pasken halachos. It was written by a Chabad rebbe, so Chabadniks follow it. Almost nobody else does.

n0mesorah, no, I didn’t misunderstand. The role of the tzaddik is a key element in the original teachings of the Besht.

As for tefillin on Chol Hamoed, it’s not just the Zohar. The Gra also held that one shouldn’t wear tefillin.

Chassidus as a whole has issues with how they view the Rebbe, or as he’s called in the teachings of the Besht, the Tzaddik. He taught that the tzaddik is born without a yetzer harah, and therefore is empowered to descend into sinful situations in order to elevate others. The Tzaddik is incapable of sin. This is obviously wrong, as it says in Koheles that everyone does wrong at some point.

EEEE: when I was in Darchei Torah, we once had a Shabbos seudah with R’ Reisman, from the Agudah of Long Island. There was a bottle of soda on the table that was sealed, and a few boys started arguing that nobody should open it, because some held that it’s assur. R’ Reisman heard them, said “Pass me the bottle, please!” and opened it. He then passed it back, and told them to enjoy it.

A few points on this:
When the Torah uses the word Toevah in reference to the lifestyle, it only refers to men. Women have a separate issur. The main difference is that for women I don’t believe there is a death penalty, and it’s definitely not yehareg v’al yaavor.

Aveirah says that being mechalel Shabbos doesn’t go against the essence of a person. True, because Shabbos isn’t something that relates to a person. But it does relate to creation. We say in Friday night’s davening that Shabbos is the tachlis of creation. The entire creation relies on Shabbos – I’d say that violating it would go against the normal fabric of things, just as homosexuality does.

The world was built on truth. I’m sure we all know it says that Emes is the foundation. Cheating in business is the opposite of that. Again, it’s something that goes against the very essence of the world and creation.

Here’s a similar question that was posted a number of years ago: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/relying-on-a-heter-of-someone-else

I actually asked my Rav about this question. He holds that a dishwasher cannot be kashered. He told me that as long as my friend has a psak from a reliable Rav, I don’t have to worry, and I can rely on the psak he received.

Aveirah, you’re missing my point. People want to accept those chumros? Fine, not a problem. But don’t start putting down those who don’t keep them. As for where my information comes from, it’s from my own observances and experiences. As for you… you know how when some people go OTD, they become the biggest antisemites? You’re the same way with MO. You decided it wasn’t for you, and left that group, and became so virulently against it that you just can’t possibly think of any good in it. Get over it!

Chaim Berlin: The point isn’t whether people always go like R’ Moshe or not. The point is that eating chalav stam is not assur, but baal tashchis is. This guy put his chumrah over an actual halachah.

n0mesorah, regarding R’ Tuvia GOldstein zt”l, I was told by one of his main talmidim that while he himself held an eruv was allowed in Brooklyn, he wouldn’t pasken that way out of respect for R’ Moshe, except for very specific circumstances. He never allowed it to be used openly. The example told to me was that if someone has asthma and needs to carry an inhaler, R’ Tuvia held that it could be kept in your pocket, because it’s not visible. R’ Moshe would have held that one shouldn’t leave the house on Shabbos with it.

There are plenty of Chabadniks who do believe the Rebbe will come back as Mashiach. Look at the quote I posted earlier, from the Rosh Yeshiva of the Chabad Yeshiva in Cincinnati. Here it is again:
“The constant focus that this concealment is temporary and that at any moment the Rebbe will return and take us out of Galus. This is the greatest source of optimism, excitement and connection. This is the ultimate driving force in the Hiskashrus of a Chassid today. It also creates the true feeling of accountability to the Rebbe, which is so vital and important for every chassid.
…
Iyh we will be reunited with the Rebbe, Vehu Yigaleinu, and there will be no need to have this discussion!”

The article is titled “OUR POST GIMMEL TAMMUZ BOCHURIM NEED A REALITY CHECK”, by Rabbi Gershon Avtzon. You can look it up.

Actually, Joseph, the times we’ve had issues are when someone is making a simcha, and guests come in dressed inappropriately. Our members know better.
As for schools, you’re wrong. Look at the Teaneck area, where they have schools like TABC, Mayanot, and Na’aleh. Pretty much the only school that’s mixed is Frisch, which is more Conservadox – a large number of kids who go there don’t come from Shomer Shabbos homes, so I wouldn’t call them MO. In Teaneck there’s even a more yeshivish place that opened, Heichal HaTorah. So I don’t know where you get your information from, but it’s incorrect.

Aveirah, I looked up the study. It says straight out that they interviewed non-Orthodox people who attend Orthodox synagogues. It also says that only 41% of respondents classified as Modern Orthodox!
If you look at the splits between what they label as Modern Orthodox or Centrist/Right Orthodox, you’ll see the numbers are just fine. It’s Open Orthodox that has the problems… no surprise there.
You talk about the things it doesn’t ask about. I have children in schools now, and I can tell you that tznius is taught just fine. They are taught that ngiah is forbidden. The school has a dress code. The vast majority of students don’t have relationships with the opposite gender. So I don’t know where you get your ideas from.

Lakewhut: incorrect. In my shul, which is MO, there absolutely is a requirement that women must dress appropriately when coming to shul. The Rav will admit that the requirements are usually the halachic minimum, so that people aren’t driven away from davening, but they are there. We’ve had times where the Rebbetzin went over to someone to ask her to walk out until she changed, or covered up a bit. We’ve had divorced women who no longer wanted to cover their hair who were told that’s not allowed in the shul.
As for mechitzos, you miss the point of them. It’s not to block men from seeing women. It’s to differentiate the sections for men and women. R’ Moshe held it only needed to be 5 feet tall. It’s just to prevent mingling during davening.

I’d say that most of the MO world is to the left of R’ Willig and R’ Schachter, the same way we were all to the left of R’ Chaim Kanievsky. They are huge gedolim, so the majority of ALL frum Jews are to the left of them.

Aveirah, please define what you mean by left MO, as opposed to centrist or right MO. I expect we’d find that we actually agree that there is an element that is separated from Orthodoxy, despite calling themselves Modern Orthodox. I highly doubt you’ll find any Rav who supports the things that this group does, other than possibly YCT “Rabbis”, who don’t really count.

It means the government that exists in Israel.

Avira, you missed my point. You can say whatever you want about the formation of the state, but here, today, we should be working with the state. Publicly opposing it all the time and saying how it’s terrible does not accomplish anything except to cause more hatred against frum Jews.

Avirah, are you in favor of supporting Oorah? Are you aware that they have a float in the Celebrate Israel Parade in NYC every year?

Avirah, this is the root of our differences.
I am a Zionist, but that doesn’t mean I support the government of the State. I wish the State was run by a religious government, in accordance with halacha. The fact that it isn’t doesn’t mean I have to oppose the very idea of the State of Israel.
Actually, chareidim are partly to blame for the way it is now. When the State was founded, they could have participated, and set up the groundwork for the laws to be based on halacha, but many refused, partially because of the urging from Satmar.
R’ Yoilish HAD to continue to oppose Zionism because of his actions during the Holocaust.
Had the chareidim tried to include religion during the formation of the State, things could be a lot different now.
At the end of the day, I support Jews having their own land, a place where the other nations can’t persecute us for being Jewish. Where the government won’t torture and kill us for practicing our faith. I look at that as a blessing from Hashem. I see the nevuah of “Od yeshvu z’keinim u’z’keinos b’rechovos Yerushalayim…” fulfilled. When R’ Akiva saw a fox on the Har haBayis, he laughed, because one nevuah coming true meant the others would as well. So I, too, can be happy about seeing a nevuah fulfilled, even if it’s not in a way that seems 100% good to me.
So in short – I can separate the government from the State itself. You seem unable to do so.