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Coffee, yes, there are different paths, but each path needs a mesorah. Chassidus has no mesorah – the Besht did not have a teacher who taught him that path.
coffee addict, your post is one of the main reasons why I’m opposed to chassidus as a whole. Chassidus started because someone claimed to receive a vision in a dream, telling him to teach a new form of Judaism.
I saw the history appears to be working again, hopefully permanently this time! I clicked to the end of my posts to see if it went all the way back, and I found this thread, which I posted in over 12 years ago. I think this is the oldest thread I’ve ever bumped!
I just wanted to share something that occurred just a few weeks ago. My twins are now teenagers, and B”H are doing nicely. My wife and I did try to have more children, but sadly, the treatments didn’t work, and we decided that if we were to have more children, it would come straight from Hashem, without any more running to doctors.
So a few weeks ago, on a Shabbos, after the meal, my daughter made a comment to me. She said, “I really wish I had more siblings, especially some younger ones. Why couldn’t you and Mommy have more kids?”
I answered her, “You know that you and your brother are miracles, that the doctors thought wouldn’t happen. Hashem gave us the two of you, and I guess He felt that was all we should have. IY”H when you are married, I hope that you’ll be able to have as many children as you want, without any issues at all!”That was the end of the conversation. But you know what? Even all these years later, it hurt tremendously. I was fighting back tears after she made her comment. I know it’s not my fault at all, and I’m grateful for what I have, but when my own child, who is a miracle herself, complains about it, it just opens up old wounds.
I can’t imagine the pain of those who were never able to have their own children. If it hurts this much when I have my own kids, how much more do they feel?
Over the years, I’ve urged many people to support Bonei Olam. If you haven’t signed up for their V’Zakeini program, please do so – $1 per week can go a long way! They just sent out a success story a few weeks ago, how a couple, after 24 years of marriage, finally had a baby boy, through this program. They have other fundraisers throughout the year as well.
Let’s make sure that EVERY Jewish couple can hold their own child in their arms. Let’s end the pain that so many couples are feeling.
qwerty, here is what R’ Belsky zt”l said about Chabad:
“Chabad used to be about disseminating Chassidic teachings which the Baal HaTanya wrote, saying his Divrei Torah, etc. In America, Chabad started out with Shlichim going out and bringing the masses back to Judaism. These are goals which we share and do not contest.But present-day Chabad has nothing to do with the above. Present-day Chabad has become a personal cult centered on the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe. Everything they do from beginning to end, revolves around this. They constantly project his image, talk about him and how great he was, how smart he was, how he was a better strategist than all the generals, that he was Mashiach. etc. This is the way people talk about a cult figure. There’s no room in Yiddeshkeit for a personality cult in which an individual is deified and glorified. Whether he was great or wasn’t great is immaterial. There have been many great people in Judaism. The personality cult of glorifying an individual person, giving him unique titles, elevating the shape other building he was active in. etc., has no place in Yiddishkeit.”
At the Darchei Torah dinner a few weeks ago, R’ Bender said that there’s a boy in Darchei who is doing the same thing – only lukewarm showers. There are others who have taken on other things. I believe there’s a boy who is sleeping without pillows.
I’ve had dessert a couple of times, for a specific reason. We had Shabbos guests who brought dessert, and purposely brought something they know I enjoy. I didn’t want them to feel bad, so I had a small piece. I spoke to a Rav after, and he agreed that it was the right thing to do.CS: Saying an individual is god clothed in human form is absolute kefirah. If you say no Lubavitcher would see it that way, and they all believe it’s true, then you’re saying that all Lubavitchers are kofrim.
Thank you for clarifying that for me. I was hesitant at times to daven in a Chabad House, even when traveling to a place where there are no shuls. Now I know that I was correct, and I will daven b’yichidus rather than go to a Chabad House.CS: I’d use your medical analogy, but turn it against you. If a 3 year old would read a medical text cover to cover, would you trust what the kid says regarding medicine? No, because they can’t hope to understand it.
Learning chassidus/kabalah as the primary type of Torah is like a 3 year old reading a medical text. You can’t hope to understand it, because the foundations are in Chumash, Mishnayos, and Gemara. You may think you’re an expert, but you’re not, because you’re missing the foundations. You just twist the words to suit your goals – just like the story I wrote earlier, painting the targets around the arrows.Gadolhadorah, do you realize that to go from Lakewood to Monsey, you’d pass through Bergen County? You’ll probably see many more srugies than streimlach there!
CS, it was reported by a Yaakov Zisholtz. I have no idea who he is. If I Google him, I don’t find much. So no, I wouldn’t trust it.
If you take one prediction the Rebbe made that came true, and use that as a sign that he was a Navi… there are plenty of people who made predictions that came true, including Shabsai Tzvi.
When my wife and I were going through fertility treatments, we were having a lot of difficulty, and our doctor told us to give up. We got a bracha from a Rav that our next IVF should work, and B”H it did. Does that mean he was a Navi?
There were sports players who predicted that they’d win a game, and they did. Maybe they’re nevi’im too?CS, again, as I said earlier, it’s not “well known” that R’ Chaim met Mashiach. It’s one person who claimed R’ Chaim said it to him.
Reb Eliezer, what will happen if you can’t bump your own posts once a year?
CS, it’s not “well known” about R’ Chaim zt”l. It was one person who gave an interview, who claimed that R’ Chaim had told him that he has had conversations with Mashiach.
Arso, about the Gulf War, you made a mistake. R’ Chaim didn’t say nothing would happen in Israel. He said it specifically about Bnei Brak, not the entire Israel.
CS: R’ Chaim was probably the greatest talmud chacham in the past century. His life was on a totally different level than anyone else – he lived in a different world. His entire life was only Torah, nothing else. His father, the Steipler, said straight out that R’ Chaim was a bigger masmid than he was (I believe it’s written in the book A Tale of Two Worlds). He had the entire Torah on his fingertips. There are many stories about miracles that happened with him (such as the famous grasshopper story.) When you say, “Having heard that he was a serious Talmid Chacham, Gaon etc I take that at face value,” you are grossly underestimating who and what R’ Chaim was.
qwerty613, clearly you’re not singing the correct songs, since your questions are still here!
Shabsai Tzvi was also a huge talmud chacham, who was declared Mashiach by many leading Rabbonim. He also supposedly performed miracles, some of which are mentioned by big Rabbonim as well. R’ Bender mentions one in his sefer on the Parsha. Yet we all know that Shabsai Tzvi was a fraud.
The Rebbe was the mashiach sheker of our times. Just like with Tzvi, even after his passing, people are still hanging on, hoping that it’s true. But just like with Tzvi, it’s not true.
One of the reasons that the Gra was opposed to Chassidus was because he foresaw this happening. It just proves him right.
Ysiegel, of course there are many things that are important when looking for a shidduch. However, you can’t tell people to ignore looks. It is very important that a couple finds each other to be physically attractive. If everything else is perfect, but the guy thinks she’s not attractive, then they should not get married!
Menachem, had the prisoners only sang while they were working, they could have become the gedolei hador!
sechel, the idea that not understanding a Gemara is due to klipos, and that a niggun can remove them is absolutely ridiculous. The way to understand a Gemara is to toil away at it, learn it again and again, looking through different meforshim, and reaching an understanding. Here’s a story about understanding a Gemara, which I heard from R’ Bender:
There was a Rebbe in Torah v’Daas named R’ Yosef Levitin. When he was a bachur, he and his chavrusah were stuck on a particular sugyah in Bava Basra. R’ Yosef had a question that they just couldn’t find an answer to. They toiled and toiled away at it, but couldn’t find anything to answer it. He went to sleep that night, still thinking about it.
The next morning, he came in with a huge smile. He told his chavrusah that the Rosh Yeshiva zt”l, R’ Shlomo Heiman, had come to him in a dream, and told him to look in the Ri Migash. He got up, washed his hands, said Birchas haTorah, and went to check, Sure enough, there was his question, and the Ri Migash gave an answer.
In Torah v’Daas, in the library, there is a Ri Migash with a handwritten note in the margin, saying “the Rosh Yeshiva came to me in a dream last night, and told me to look here.”When we toil away in learning, Hashem will help us find the answers. Quick fixes, like singing songs, are not the way to understand learning. The whole idea is crazy. This is just another thing that shows why chassidus (at least the way you learn it) is not a legitimate form of Judaism.
Sechel, let me get this straight – so they had questions in learning. They asked a Rebbe. Instead of answering, the Rebbe sang a song, and their questions disappeared. This is supposed to show holiness? To me, this demonstrates that the Rebbe was lacking in Torah knowledge. He didn’t answer their questions, and it doesn’t say they got answers at all. All the story says is that the questions disappeared from their minds.
I think that’s a bad thing, not a good thing.All the Chabad arguments on this thread just make me think of a story. It’s a famous one, many have probably heard it before.
A man is walking through the woods, and he sees a tree with a target painted on it. Right in the center of the bullseye is an arrow. A few trees over, he sees the same thing again.
As he walks, he sees more and more targets painted, each with an arrow exactly in the center.
Eventually, he sees a man holding a bow and arrow. “Did you shoot all those other arrows,” he asks?
“Yes, I did!” the archer replies.
“How did you get so good, that each one is exactly in the bullseye?”
The archer laughed. “I shoot the arrow at the tree. After it hits it, I paint the target around the arrow!”Chabad (wrongfully) decided that their Rebbe is Mashiach. Now they’re “painting the target”, trying to twist sources to show that they’re correct. They didn’t decide he was Mashiach because of the sources, they’re using them all after the fact to try and convince others that they’re right.
We see here what happens when you point out that they’re wrong – all you get is, “Learn Chassidus! You aren’t an expert, so you can’t have an opinion!”
People used to say that Lubavitch is the closest religion to Judaism. I don’t think that’s even true anymore.
In a restaurant, one should always tip, unless the servers are paid a regular wage, and not a tip-earner wage, or there were serious issues with the service.
I once had an instance where there was a serious issue with the service, and I didn’t want to leave a tip. I spoke with the manager, and explained what the issue was, and how I felt about it. He agreed with me that in this case, I should NOT tip, and there were no hard feelings between me and him. I probably can’t say the same for the server, there’s no way he was happy – I believe he ended up getting fired for what happened.
Joe, of course they’re let into the schools, but that doesn’t mean that the parents should choose to live a life where they need scholarships for it. Scholarships should be for those who are trying to pay in full, doing their best, but aren’t able. If you’re not putting in the effort, you shouldn’t qualify for it.
As for R’ Moshe and R’ Ahron, please show us where they say the optimal way to live is with pas b’melach, and that you should plan to utilize scholarships, without even attempting to maximize the amount you pay.Joe, you ignored my last point – what about paying tuition?
I also wonder how many Rabbonim today would actually encourage people to live on pas b’melach. What about for Shabbos, when you must have wine or grape juice for Kiddush, and meat for your seudos? Do you ignore that as well?
Joe, you just pick the things you want, that seem to fit your point, and abuse them. You have no modern Rabbinic backing for this.
Now, in my case, I discussed going to college with R’ Bender before I left Darchei. He felt that I should go to college, and encouraged me in it. I have no regrets at all about having attended college.Aaq the numbers I quoted are by generation. Look where I said “young male population”. I don’t recall the exact age range they used, but it was people somewhere in their 20s.
Nowadays, it’s only rare cases where a family can make ends meet with only one spouse working, when you have children. Tuition alone can cost more than one parent earns!
If you have to rely on scholarships, then you should be working more hours so that you take as little charity as possible.Joe: Incorrect. You can find the statistics with a simple Google search – I assume mods won’t let me post a link here.
In 1964, 16% of the young male population completed a degree from college. In 2010, that had gone up to 28%. You’re correct that for women that was much higher – it rose from 9% to 36%. But I don’t think that makes a difference to your point. The main issue is competing in the job market. In the 1960s, most women were homemakers, and didn’t contribute to the finances. Men didn’t have to compete with them for jobs. Today, you do have to compete with them. It’s the overall number of people in the market that matters, not what gender they are.Sechel, the Mishna in Sanhedrin disagrees with you. It lists the people who don’t get a portion in Olam Habah.
There is a big difference between perceived yichus and just knowing where you came from.
I don’t come from anyone who was a well-known Rav. But I know that my grandparents were amazing people. They were Holocaust survivors who kept their emunah and bitachon. They came to America and built a family of frum, ehrlich people. I wish I’d have a quarter of the faith that they had. To me, that is good yichus.
My Rebbe, R’ Bender, held my grandmother in such high esteem. He still sometimes speaks to me about her, and how amazing she was. I have pictures of him at some of my family’s simchas, where he made sure to go to the women’s side to wish her a Mazal tov. He’d sit at her table just to speak with her for a few minutes.
That’s yichus that is worth something.saychel, Ramapo was anything but a Kiddush Hashem.
There was the sale of the public school building to a yeshiva (or was it a Beis Yaakov?), which was blocked by a state court. The school had originaly appraised at almost $6 million, but the Jewish-run board of education got another appraisal for just over $3 million. The appraiser was later charged with a felony of accepting a bribe to supply a false appraisal, paid for by the Jewish school. The sale later was completed for $6.6 million.
There were charges filed against the Jewish school for buying religious books/seforim using public funds, which is illegal.
On August 31, 2011, New York State Office of the Comptroller released an audit of the Board, for the period July 1, 2008 to April 13, 2010. The report criticizes the district for a number of serious lapses including failing to put $2.4 million in professional services contracts out to bid, allowing three senior school board members to receive health care through the school district’s insurance pool after they failed to make $15,672 in payments, and failing to maintain proper inventory controls over $2.4 million in textbooks purchased for students not attending public schools, as required under state law. Most unsettling, the audit found that District officials inaccurately projected a June 30, 2010 fund balance of $13 million when preparing District’s 2010-11 austerity budget that was presented to the electorate and on which cutbacks and layoffs were based. In fact, the District’s audited financial statement showed a June 30, 2010, fund balance of $17,793,047, substantially higher than public estimates. The report states: “The board, along with district officials, failed to fulfill its stewardship, oversight and leadership responsibilities when it failed to establish a proper control environment, implement its own adopted policy and establish policies and procedures required by sound business practices.” The report concludes. “The deficiencies exposed district funds and assets to abuse, waste and/or loss.” The local paper headline was “East Ramapo bungled millions,” and in a scathing editorial, the paper called for a thorough investigation of the board.Joe, there is a big difference between being embarrassed to be a Jew, and treating non-Jewish neighbors nicely.
There are plenty of issues with communities that have huge Jewish populations. The OP is right, that as the Jewish population grows larger, non-Jews are often squeezed out, because their quality of life declines.
There are towns with large Jewish populations that have signs up telling people how to dress. In a public street, you have no right to do that! (Assuming, of course, that the person doesn’t fall into the legal definition of public indecency.) If you’re a non-Jew, who has lived in a neighborhood for most of your life, would you suddenly want people telling you that the way you dress is not ok? How about if someone is hosting their family for a BBQ on a Saturday afternoon, and they’re playing music in the yard? In a place like Boro Park, do you think that would just be allowed to happen? Or would someone go over and ask them to stop playing that kind of music?
Then you can get into the issues of the public schools in smaller towns. Look at what happened in Ramapo – a huge Chillul Hashem!
Joe, you love to talk about the Shalosh Shavuos when it comes to Israel. Don’t forget the second one, not to provoke the other nations. Even if the Oaths are no longer in effect, it’s never a good idea to antagonize the people around you.I love how there are also health-conscious people who forget what the whole point of all the foods is: to eat things cooked in oil. I hear plenty of people talking about baked or air-fried latkes and/or donuts. Why eat them then? The point is the oil, not the latkes or donuts!
I don’t buy the fancy donuts, I refuse to do that. I got a few of the regular, old, boring ones – they’re still delicious! I got pizza for my kids, and while I usually don’t eat fries too much, I made sure to order some this time, so I had the fried food. For this past Shabbos, I bought the frozen Moroccan cigars, and fried them on Thursday night. We then reheated them for the Shabbos meal. They’re something I almost never buy otherwise.
There are plenty of good options to fulfill the minhag of the fried foods, sometimes even “special” foods, without breaking the bank. Do you usually bake or grill your chicken? Make some fried shnitzel instead! Have some french fries with it too.I second the idea of a GE model with the Shabbos keeper. I have this, and it is fantastic. You don’t have to remember to switch it to Shabbos mode each Friday, it does it on its own. It also adds on extras that some companies aren’t aware of, and may require people to rely on b’dieved situations – this was developed so you could use it l’chatchilah.
n0mesorah, I’d love to see the budget for a family like that. I don’t think it works.
common: No, that would be per capita. Household income is exactly what it sounds like, total household income.
Joe, if a talmud chacham is making $43k per year, and has 5 kids, then he’s relying on tzedakah to live. If that’s viewed as a success, then there’s a problem with the Lakewood system.BMG, it’s true, there are people who are successful without going to college. But it is much more difficult, please don’t forget that.
I just looked up average household incomes by town in NJ. Lakewood has an average household income of about $43,000. Teaneck, where most people are college graduates, is $125,000.Joe, according to your post, going to college in order to learn a trade can be a mitzvah (paragraph C). You just need to be sure not to be exposed to apikorsus in the classes you attend, which isn’t difficult.
Indeed, many Rabbonim attended college/university. The Novominsker zt”l attended Brooklyn College. R’ Hutner studied philosophy in University – philosophy being a subject which can contain apikorsus.
R’ Bender has said that his father, R’ Dovid Bender, went to college and actually became a CPA.
Regarding your story about R’ Segal zt”l, I have a relative who wanted to stop attending general studies, and learn the whole day. R’ Segal told him absolutely not, and at minimum you need a high school diploma in order to get a job.At the end of the day, even if someone wants to live at the bare minimum level, working 3 hours per day is not enough to support a family. Not when you have tuitions to pay. For most people, working 8 hours per day isn’t enough to cover tuitions in full if you have more than 3 kids. It’s one thing to ask for a scholarship when you’re working full-time, but how can you ask for help when you don’t want to work a regular job?
Regular is a very vague term
Teaneck never had a ShopRite, but there are 2 in neighboring towns (one in Englewood and one in Paramus). Teaneck does have a Stop & Shop. All 3 stores have large kosher sections, including meats.
Here are other Jewish neighborhoods in NJ with a ShopRite:
Edison (also serves Highland Park)
Livingston
Elizabeth
Cherry Hill (I believe it’s one town over)
Howell (as mentioned above)I think one of the issues is the type of people who live in each area, and what hechsherim they trust. Yeshivish and MO usually have no issue with the “Big 4” – OU, OK, Kaf-K, and Star-K. Chassidim, on the other hand, usually prefer the heimish hechsherim, and don’t like to rely on the big ones. So in a community like Monsey, which became mostly chassidish over the years, ShopRite can’t provide what people are looking for. In MO communities, or even close to Lakewood, as long as ShopRite carries a selection of Chalav Yisrael products, they can provide for the population there.
coffee: I heard he tried to run but couldn’t make it more than 2 steps.
Addict, I actually spoke with R’ Bender earlier today about the rally. His position was not as clear as you make it. It appears that he didn’t want his feelings publicized (most likely because he doesn’t often get involved in politics), but as I said, you don’t have the full picture.
Common: you are incorrect. Many more people look to R’ Schachter for guidance than you think, and RIETS people definitely listen to him.
Joseph, R’ Schachter is definitely a gadol, and not only did he encourage attendance, he himself attended the rally. As others said, keep your lies to yourself!
How do you define “out of town”?
I’ve heard great things about the growth of chassidish communities in Union County, NJ. There is Linden and Union, and I’m told that in Hillside, there will be a group starting out soon. I don’t know if they have a kollel, but there are definitely communities that are growing there.
My only issue is that in Linden, I was told that the Modern Orthodox community there is shrinking due to the chassidim.
Chassidim spread quickly. Soon Teaneck will be the last home of Modern Orthodoxy in NJ!Yasher koach! Being nosei b’ol is a huge deal. I posted about it a few weeks ago (https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/nosei-bol-chaveiro), as R’ Bender had spoken about it.
I gave up eating dessert after meals. Small things make all the difference!Joe, there are 13 members on the Moetzes. Not even half of them signed the letter. That’s your case? Laughable.
Probably because the organizations who planned the rally aren’t Orthodox, and the frum orgs didn’t support it until things were already set.
Among other things, I decided to heed the call of R’ Schachter, and am fasting today. I also will be davening the special Yom Kipur Katan Mincha, which I usually do not do. It remains to be seen if there will be a minyan of people who are fasting. If there is, we will lein, and Aneinu, Birchas Kohanim, and Sim Shalom will be recited in chazaras hashatz.
Joe, you are so eager to attack me that you’re just reaching now. I’ve posted many, many times that I 100% oppose Weiss and YCT. Got anything else to show your hatred of a fellow Jew?
Joe, I didn’t call R’ Sorotzkin a sonei, I called YOU a sonei Yisrael. Everyone on this site knows you are the biggest troll here, and that you regularly insult and put down others. You cherry-pick the shitos you want in order to troll as hard as you can. You are the ultimate letz, and yes, you are a sonei Yisrael.
Joseph, you can say whatever you want – I hope you realize that nobody here takes you seriously.
Agudas Yisroel encouraged people to attend, and I assume that there will be Rabbonim attending.
Go crawl back under your bridge, you sonei Yisrael.I try to judge politicians on their own merits, and their own views. Unfortunately, nowadays, most politicians can’t think for themselves. They just blindly follow the party line, especially at the Federal level.
So when it comes to elections, I’ll actually look at the history – does the candidate always vote together with the party, or are there times that they disagree? It plays a role in my votes. If both sides always follow the party line, I’ll vote Republican.
In the case that the OP is clearly referring to, Avi Schnall, I highly doubt that he will always be voting together with the Democratic Party stance. If something comes up on abortion, or same-sex marriage, I’m sure he will vote according to Torah values. To me, that is more important than the “Democrat” tag that he ran under.Avira: Or, Satmar is completely wrong, and Israel is NOT preventing the geulah, but rather is a part of it.
My brother told me that he witnessed R’ Yankel Drillman yelling at some Neturei Karta members once. There had been an Atzeres Tefillah in Manhattan years ago, when there was fighting in Israel, and some NK members were protesting it. One thing R’ Drillman said was, “I daven for you every day – when I say v’Lamalshinim, I’m referring to you!” He also yelled, “DROP DEAD RIGHT NOW!” before walking off.
So yes, I’d say they are malshinim.Neturei Karta are reshoim. No, they do not have a point. You oppose Israel for a halachic reason? Fine, go ahead and oppose it. But how dare they go out and march with those who want to kill us? How can they go to Iran and meet with the leaders there? That is why they are 100% wrong, and are reshoim. Don’t compare them to Satmar – R’ Yoel would never have been friends with the leaders of Iran, or been mechalel Shabbos marching with Palestinian supporters.