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Regarding Ezra being a navi: There are opinions that Ezra and Malachi were the same person, and Malachi was definitely a navi.
Avira, what makes you think that anyone is choosing Bibi over a King established by a Navi? Right now, we don’t have a Navi, and we don’t have a King. We do have a State of Israel, and it has a leader. If a Navi came today and established a King, do you think I’d choose Bibi over him? Absolutely not! I just look at what exists now. In no way does that diminish my longing for Mashiach’s arrival.
Now Avira knows exactly what *could* have happened in WW2! He knows that if the Jews had gone to Eretz Yisrael, the Nazis would have attacked there!
He claims Chabad has an issue with a false Navi, but doesn’t see anything wrong with his claiming to know exactly what would have happened had people made other choices…
Avira, you’re like the story I said in the earlier Chabad thread. You shoot your arrow (anti-Zionist) and then draw the target around it.Avira so you think the Ponovezher Rav wasn’t following the Torah when he said that? Or when he flew the Israeli flag in front of the yeshiva, and didn’t say Tachnun on Yom Ha’atzmaut?
Avira, your claim with the Ponovezher Rav is just plain ridiculous now. You want to claim that he made mistakes, but can’t consider that others might have? So the US State Department said it would take a week – so what? Purim is just over a week away, did you learn nothing from it? Miracles occur that may seem natural.
To quote a song put out many years ago, “But those who don’t see, are those who refuse to see.”Avira, the Ponovezher Rav disagreed with you. After the Six Day War, he wrote an article where he said the war was an open miracle.
hakatan, R’ Shlomo Kluger disagreed about the Oaths no longer being binding when the non-Jews didn’t keep to their end. He said it’s pashut that the Oaths relating to the Jews are no longer in effect when the non-Jews treat us harshly.
Just acknowledge that this is a machlokes, and there are legitimate gedolim on both sides.sechel, it’s not just my word that R’ Sternbuch said this. He first published a pamphlet about it, about a year after the book was published in Israel (1968), and later wrote about it in his sefer, Teshuvos v’Hanhagos: https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20027&pgnum=414&hilite=
Sechel, are you aware that R’ Moshe Sternbuch has said that Kol Hator is a fraud, and was not actually written by the Gra?
Joe, Sarah Schenirer wrote in her diaries that she learned Chok l’Yisrael every day. This is a daily seder which includes Chumash, Nach, Mishnah, and Gemara.
Avira, now you’re changing your stance. Before, you claimed that it’s 100% assur. Now, you’re claiming that if girls daven, study mussar, etc. they are allowed? You also are claiming that an “exceptional” woman is now exempt from the issur?
Make up your mind please. If it’s assur, then it’s assur to all women. If it’s not assur, then it’s allowed for all women.
Which is it?As I said in another thread, Sarah Schenirer learned Gemara. Please explain that.
I have to agree with the Mod and stand up for Satmar here. I think everyone here knows I have LOTS of issues with Satmar, but I can’t fault them for their chessed. They don’t limit it to just their own chassidus, they help everyone. Anyone who’s been in an NYC hospital, especially over Shabbos, and needed food, probably benefitted from Satmar. I know many people that they’ve helped financially as well. So please, don’t claim that Satmar only looks out for their own. It’s simply not true.
Avira, you’re wrong yet again. Teaching women Gemara has nothing to do with science. As I wrote earlier in the thread, there are opinions from major rabbonim (such as R’ Henkin) that it’s permissible to teach Gemara to women as long as it’s by choice, and not mandated. So it can be an elective class, not a required class. I posted a link to an article from R’ Jachter which goes through all the sources.
As for RABBI Lamm’s thoughts, if only we’d all be on the level where we looked at everything we learned from a Torah perspective, then yes, we probably should recite Birchas haTorah. For example, when the Gra wrote his sefer explaining trigonometry, even though it’s math, it was used to properly understand Maseches Sukkah. Studying trig in order to understand the Gemara is learning Torah.
Avirah, you’re back to your old self, insulting Modern Orthodoxy whenever you can, for no reason whatsoever. You’re completely wrong, BTW – Modern Orthodox Jews don’t equate learning Torah with science. Please put aside your hatred, and actually educate yourself.
Sechel, the number of people who can quote the teachings of someone doesn’t indicate greatness. Far more people can quote teachings of Jesus – does that indicate greatness?
“if the rebbe wasn’t a gadal, who was?“
Someone who didn’t declare themselves to be Mashiach.
CTL, I’m curious what your legal opinion is regarding DACA.
In my opinion, it was blatantly unconstitutional. Obama passed it via Executive Order, even though it violates current US law. The president is charged to “take care that the laws be faithfully executed”, and DACA goes against that.So I ask, as a lawyer, what is your opinion on DACA?
Avira, incorrect. It would seem that according to many, making Gemara a required course for women would be forbidden, but making it an elective, that women could choose on their own to take, would be allowed. That is how some schools have it. I don’t know of any Jewish girls schools that require their students to attend a class on Gemara.
Avira, as for proof about Sara Schenirer learning Gemara, it’s something I’ve read on numerous bios of her. In her diaries, she wrote that she learned the daily Chok l’Yisrael seder. Chok l’Yisrael contains Chumash, Navi, Mishnayos, and Gemara. I found it interesting that in some of the more yeshivish bios where I read this, they removed Gemara when explaining what Chok l’Yisrael is.
In R’ Jachter’s article (which I linked to above – thanks Mods!), he notes that the prohibition, according to many, is to force women to learn Mishna or Gemara. If they choose to learn it on their own, there is no problem. See the Torah Temimah on Devarim 11:19. Also, R’ Chaim Dovid haLevi quotes the Chida as having this view, and R’ Henkin said that this views explains how there were so many women who were very learned, from Bruriah all the way to modern times – he names the wife of R’ Isser Zalman Meltzer.
There is disagreement on the issue, so each should follow their own posek.Avira, there is an excellent article by R’ Jachter which goes through the different opinions on whether women can learn Gemara. Not sure the mods will allow the link: https://www.koltorah .org/halachah/are-women-permitted-to-study-gemara-by-rabbi-howard-jachter?format=amp
In the event they don’t, just search for Jachter can women learn Gemara.It should be noted that Sarah Schenirer learned Gemara every day, as part of a daily seder she had.
Sechel, R’ Shach did not consider the Lubavitcher Rebbe to be a Gadol. He actually referred to him as “the madman who sits in New York and drives the whole world crazy”.
He said that the statements he made regarding his father in law being God clothed in a human body, just like Moshe, as kefirah, and said that Chabad followers were just like the followers of Shabtai Tzvi. When the Lubavitcher Rebbe was sick, R’ Shach said that he davened for him to recover, and also to do teshuvah for the path he followed.
He already accused the Rebbe of being a Mashiach sheker in the 1970s.So Avira, you’re saying that the Chabad chassidim who spend the vast majority of their learning time on chassidus are going against what the Baal haTanya wanted?
R’ Chaim Volozhin wrote the following in Nefesh Hachaim (Beginning of Shaar Daled):
וגם כמה מאותן אשר קרבת אלהים יחפצון. המה בחרו לעצמם לקבוע כל עיקר לימודם בספרי יראה ומוסר כל הימים. בלא קביעות עיקר העסק בתוה”ק במקראות והלכות מרובות. ועדן לא ראו מאורות מימיהם ולא נגה עליהם אור התורה. ה’ יסלח להם. כי כוונתם לשמי’. אבל לא זו הדרך ישכון בם אור התורה:He then goes into the fact that mussar is important, and was introduced because there was a need for it, but that it was secondary to learning Gemara, Rashi, and Tosfos. He continues:
והן עתה בדורות הללו בעוה”ר נהפוך הוא. הגבוה השפל. שכמה וכמה שמו כל עיקר קביעת לימודם רוב הימים רק בספרי יראה ומוסר. באמרם כי זה כל האדם בעולמו לעסוק בהם תמיד. כי המה מלהיבים הלבבות אשר אז יכנע לבבו להכניע ולשבר היצר מתאוותיו. ולהתיישר במדות טובות. וכתר תורה מונח בקרן זוית. ובעיני ראיתי בפלך א’ שכ”כ התפשט אצלם זאת. עד שברוב בתי מדרשם אין בהם רק ספרי מוסר לרוב. ואפי’ ש”ס א’ שלם אין בו. וטח עיניהם מראות מהבין והשכיל לבותם. אשר לא זו הדרך בחר בו ה’ כי לא ירצה. ועוד מעט בהמשך הזמן יוכלו להיות ח”ו ללא כהן מורה. ותורה מה תהא עליה:So as I said, in the early days of chassidus, the primacy of learning Torah was set aside in favor of learning “chassidus”. R’ Chaim Volozhin bemoaned this fact.
In most sects of chassidus, this changed, and they now focus on Gemara. Chabad still holds closest to the original teachings of the Besht and his students, and focus on chassidus, instead of Gemara, Rashi, and Tosfos.As for Sechel’s claim that the Gra would prefer that people learn Tanya instead of being in the CR, I firmly disagree. I think that if the Gra were here now, he’d be appalled by what he saw in Chabad, and it would just affirm everything he feared about chassidus creating another Shabtai Tzvi. He probably would think we’re all doing wrong, whether we’re here in the CR, or learning Tanya.
If he were here, he’d make his way to a yeshiva, would likely marvel at how many seforim are available now, and lament the fact that with so much Torah readily available, people still waste their times with other things.
Froggie (and others):
Chassidus as originally intended by the Besht was problematic. Yes, he did introduce new ideas into Judaism. He claimed that learning Torah was not of utmost importance, and instead shifted the focus to tefillah, along with happiness. His followers did things such as turn cartwheels while davening, spoke in tongues, and other strange actions. There are other teachings which were concerning, and I won’t get into all of them. They can be summed up by his asserting the primacy of Kabbalah over traditional thought, even when it came to Halachah. Kabbalah is not supposed to be learned while young, and definitely not before one has a solid foundation in the traditional sources of Tanach, Mishnayos, and Gemara.
Chassidus ended up becoming accepted because a few generations later, the leaders walked back on some of the ideas, and accepted the traditional views, merging some chassidic thoughts into them. Most of the things that were problematic were abandoned (although not all).
So Chassidus as the Besht envisioned it is long gone. Yet as I said, some problematic parts do remain.
But let’s be clear about this: The Besht did NOT have a mesorah for his teachings. He didn’t learn about the supremacy of tefillah over learning Torah from his father (he was orphaned at the age of 5) or his Rebbe.
There are no seforim on learning from the Besht. Only quotes from his students, and mostly on matters of Chassidus. So there is absolutely zero proof that he was knowledgeable in Shas. In fact, the people who supported him had hoped he’d become a Rabbi, but he frequently skipped cheder to walk in the woods, and they gave up on him. When he finished cheder (at the age of 12), they gave him a job walking escorting the small children to cheder in the morning, and davening with them.
My personal belief is that the stories of the Besht were inflated by those who came after, such as the Maggid of Mezritch, Yaakov Yosef of Polonye, and others.Since chassidus today was tempered by the traditional Jewish population, and they abandoned most of the teachings, chassidus became more accepted. But if the many of the practices were problematic, why do we think that those which remained are ok? If the source had problems, wouldn’t it be better to cut off all those teachings?
Froggie, I don’t want you to think I’m ignoring your response to me. I wrote a reply, but apparently it wasn’t approved.
Sorry, still working on it…
Coffee, the Besht claimed that he ascended to the Heavens, and Achiya Hashiloni taught him this derech.
Later, he claimed to have met Mashiach, and was told that he’d only arrive when the world followed the teachings of Chassidus.
This in my understanding is no different than a Christian claiming to have had a dream telling him to spread the words of Jesus.Sorry, but edited
Coffee, yes, there are different paths, but each path needs a mesorah. Chassidus has no mesorah – the Besht did not have a teacher who taught him that path.
coffee addict, your post is one of the main reasons why I’m opposed to chassidus as a whole. Chassidus started because someone claimed to receive a vision in a dream, telling him to teach a new form of Judaism.
I saw the history appears to be working again, hopefully permanently this time! I clicked to the end of my posts to see if it went all the way back, and I found this thread, which I posted in over 12 years ago. I think this is the oldest thread I’ve ever bumped!
I just wanted to share something that occurred just a few weeks ago. My twins are now teenagers, and B”H are doing nicely. My wife and I did try to have more children, but sadly, the treatments didn’t work, and we decided that if we were to have more children, it would come straight from Hashem, without any more running to doctors.
So a few weeks ago, on a Shabbos, after the meal, my daughter made a comment to me. She said, “I really wish I had more siblings, especially some younger ones. Why couldn’t you and Mommy have more kids?”
I answered her, “You know that you and your brother are miracles, that the doctors thought wouldn’t happen. Hashem gave us the two of you, and I guess He felt that was all we should have. IY”H when you are married, I hope that you’ll be able to have as many children as you want, without any issues at all!”That was the end of the conversation. But you know what? Even all these years later, it hurt tremendously. I was fighting back tears after she made her comment. I know it’s not my fault at all, and I’m grateful for what I have, but when my own child, who is a miracle herself, complains about it, it just opens up old wounds.
I can’t imagine the pain of those who were never able to have their own children. If it hurts this much when I have my own kids, how much more do they feel?
Over the years, I’ve urged many people to support Bonei Olam. If you haven’t signed up for their V’Zakeini program, please do so – $1 per week can go a long way! They just sent out a success story a few weeks ago, how a couple, after 24 years of marriage, finally had a baby boy, through this program. They have other fundraisers throughout the year as well.
Let’s make sure that EVERY Jewish couple can hold their own child in their arms. Let’s end the pain that so many couples are feeling.
qwerty, here is what R’ Belsky zt”l said about Chabad:
“Chabad used to be about disseminating Chassidic teachings which the Baal HaTanya wrote, saying his Divrei Torah, etc. In America, Chabad started out with Shlichim going out and bringing the masses back to Judaism. These are goals which we share and do not contest.But present-day Chabad has nothing to do with the above. Present-day Chabad has become a personal cult centered on the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe. Everything they do from beginning to end, revolves around this. They constantly project his image, talk about him and how great he was, how smart he was, how he was a better strategist than all the generals, that he was Mashiach. etc. This is the way people talk about a cult figure. There’s no room in Yiddeshkeit for a personality cult in which an individual is deified and glorified. Whether he was great or wasn’t great is immaterial. There have been many great people in Judaism. The personality cult of glorifying an individual person, giving him unique titles, elevating the shape other building he was active in. etc., has no place in Yiddishkeit.”
At the Darchei Torah dinner a few weeks ago, R’ Bender said that there’s a boy in Darchei who is doing the same thing – only lukewarm showers. There are others who have taken on other things. I believe there’s a boy who is sleeping without pillows.
I’ve had dessert a couple of times, for a specific reason. We had Shabbos guests who brought dessert, and purposely brought something they know I enjoy. I didn’t want them to feel bad, so I had a small piece. I spoke to a Rav after, and he agreed that it was the right thing to do.CS: Saying an individual is god clothed in human form is absolute kefirah. If you say no Lubavitcher would see it that way, and they all believe it’s true, then you’re saying that all Lubavitchers are kofrim.
Thank you for clarifying that for me. I was hesitant at times to daven in a Chabad House, even when traveling to a place where there are no shuls. Now I know that I was correct, and I will daven b’yichidus rather than go to a Chabad House.CS: I’d use your medical analogy, but turn it against you. If a 3 year old would read a medical text cover to cover, would you trust what the kid says regarding medicine? No, because they can’t hope to understand it.
Learning chassidus/kabalah as the primary type of Torah is like a 3 year old reading a medical text. You can’t hope to understand it, because the foundations are in Chumash, Mishnayos, and Gemara. You may think you’re an expert, but you’re not, because you’re missing the foundations. You just twist the words to suit your goals – just like the story I wrote earlier, painting the targets around the arrows.Gadolhadorah, do you realize that to go from Lakewood to Monsey, you’d pass through Bergen County? You’ll probably see many more srugies than streimlach there!
CS, it was reported by a Yaakov Zisholtz. I have no idea who he is. If I Google him, I don’t find much. So no, I wouldn’t trust it.
If you take one prediction the Rebbe made that came true, and use that as a sign that he was a Navi… there are plenty of people who made predictions that came true, including Shabsai Tzvi.
When my wife and I were going through fertility treatments, we were having a lot of difficulty, and our doctor told us to give up. We got a bracha from a Rav that our next IVF should work, and B”H it did. Does that mean he was a Navi?
There were sports players who predicted that they’d win a game, and they did. Maybe they’re nevi’im too?CS, again, as I said earlier, it’s not “well known” that R’ Chaim met Mashiach. It’s one person who claimed R’ Chaim said it to him.
Reb Eliezer, what will happen if you can’t bump your own posts once a year?
CS, it’s not “well known” about R’ Chaim zt”l. It was one person who gave an interview, who claimed that R’ Chaim had told him that he has had conversations with Mashiach.
Arso, about the Gulf War, you made a mistake. R’ Chaim didn’t say nothing would happen in Israel. He said it specifically about Bnei Brak, not the entire Israel.
CS: R’ Chaim was probably the greatest talmud chacham in the past century. His life was on a totally different level than anyone else – he lived in a different world. His entire life was only Torah, nothing else. His father, the Steipler, said straight out that R’ Chaim was a bigger masmid than he was (I believe it’s written in the book A Tale of Two Worlds). He had the entire Torah on his fingertips. There are many stories about miracles that happened with him (such as the famous grasshopper story.) When you say, “Having heard that he was a serious Talmid Chacham, Gaon etc I take that at face value,” you are grossly underestimating who and what R’ Chaim was.
qwerty613, clearly you’re not singing the correct songs, since your questions are still here!
Shabsai Tzvi was also a huge talmud chacham, who was declared Mashiach by many leading Rabbonim. He also supposedly performed miracles, some of which are mentioned by big Rabbonim as well. R’ Bender mentions one in his sefer on the Parsha. Yet we all know that Shabsai Tzvi was a fraud.
The Rebbe was the mashiach sheker of our times. Just like with Tzvi, even after his passing, people are still hanging on, hoping that it’s true. But just like with Tzvi, it’s not true.
One of the reasons that the Gra was opposed to Chassidus was because he foresaw this happening. It just proves him right.
Ysiegel, of course there are many things that are important when looking for a shidduch. However, you can’t tell people to ignore looks. It is very important that a couple finds each other to be physically attractive. If everything else is perfect, but the guy thinks she’s not attractive, then they should not get married!
Menachem, had the prisoners only sang while they were working, they could have become the gedolei hador!
sechel, the idea that not understanding a Gemara is due to klipos, and that a niggun can remove them is absolutely ridiculous. The way to understand a Gemara is to toil away at it, learn it again and again, looking through different meforshim, and reaching an understanding. Here’s a story about understanding a Gemara, which I heard from R’ Bender:
There was a Rebbe in Torah v’Daas named R’ Yosef Levitin. When he was a bachur, he and his chavrusah were stuck on a particular sugyah in Bava Basra. R’ Yosef had a question that they just couldn’t find an answer to. They toiled and toiled away at it, but couldn’t find anything to answer it. He went to sleep that night, still thinking about it.
The next morning, he came in with a huge smile. He told his chavrusah that the Rosh Yeshiva zt”l, R’ Shlomo Heiman, had come to him in a dream, and told him to look in the Ri Migash. He got up, washed his hands, said Birchas haTorah, and went to check, Sure enough, there was his question, and the Ri Migash gave an answer.
In Torah v’Daas, in the library, there is a Ri Migash with a handwritten note in the margin, saying “the Rosh Yeshiva came to me in a dream last night, and told me to look here.”When we toil away in learning, Hashem will help us find the answers. Quick fixes, like singing songs, are not the way to understand learning. The whole idea is crazy. This is just another thing that shows why chassidus (at least the way you learn it) is not a legitimate form of Judaism.
Sechel, let me get this straight – so they had questions in learning. They asked a Rebbe. Instead of answering, the Rebbe sang a song, and their questions disappeared. This is supposed to show holiness? To me, this demonstrates that the Rebbe was lacking in Torah knowledge. He didn’t answer their questions, and it doesn’t say they got answers at all. All the story says is that the questions disappeared from their minds.
I think that’s a bad thing, not a good thing.All the Chabad arguments on this thread just make me think of a story. It’s a famous one, many have probably heard it before.
A man is walking through the woods, and he sees a tree with a target painted on it. Right in the center of the bullseye is an arrow. A few trees over, he sees the same thing again.
As he walks, he sees more and more targets painted, each with an arrow exactly in the center.
Eventually, he sees a man holding a bow and arrow. “Did you shoot all those other arrows,” he asks?
“Yes, I did!” the archer replies.
“How did you get so good, that each one is exactly in the bullseye?”
The archer laughed. “I shoot the arrow at the tree. After it hits it, I paint the target around the arrow!”Chabad (wrongfully) decided that their Rebbe is Mashiach. Now they’re “painting the target”, trying to twist sources to show that they’re correct. They didn’t decide he was Mashiach because of the sources, they’re using them all after the fact to try and convince others that they’re right.
We see here what happens when you point out that they’re wrong – all you get is, “Learn Chassidus! You aren’t an expert, so you can’t have an opinion!”
People used to say that Lubavitch is the closest religion to Judaism. I don’t think that’s even true anymore.
In a restaurant, one should always tip, unless the servers are paid a regular wage, and not a tip-earner wage, or there were serious issues with the service.
I once had an instance where there was a serious issue with the service, and I didn’t want to leave a tip. I spoke with the manager, and explained what the issue was, and how I felt about it. He agreed with me that in this case, I should NOT tip, and there were no hard feelings between me and him. I probably can’t say the same for the server, there’s no way he was happy – I believe he ended up getting fired for what happened.
Joe, of course they’re let into the schools, but that doesn’t mean that the parents should choose to live a life where they need scholarships for it. Scholarships should be for those who are trying to pay in full, doing their best, but aren’t able. If you’re not putting in the effort, you shouldn’t qualify for it.
As for R’ Moshe and R’ Ahron, please show us where they say the optimal way to live is with pas b’melach, and that you should plan to utilize scholarships, without even attempting to maximize the amount you pay.