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I don’t think anyone was saying a hat and jacket is inappropriate for davening. The issue is when people insist that a hat and jacket is the ONLY proper way. Is a hat and jacket respectful? Absolutely (assuming they’re clean). That doesn’t mean that someone who comes in without a black hat is not. I don’t wear a hat when I daven. But I also never wore a hat on a job interview. I didn’t wear a hat when I met some high-ranking politicians.
DaasYochid, not sure what you mean.
little froggie, my response was to a post by old man saying a BLACK hat might be the only respectful way of dressing. He didn’t say any hat, he said a BLACK hat.
R’ Rakeffet’s point of chassidim “conquering” America has more merit than you think. Many things that the yeshivish world does today come from Chassidim. Separate seating at weddings? That’s from chassidim. It didn’t exist 50 years ago outside of chassidish circles. The extreme separation of genders? That’s from chassidim, and they continue to separate them further.
His point of Daas Torah didn’t mean that people didn’t respect Rabbonim. He meant that people didn’t fear to question them. Not by acting out against what they said. If a Rav gave a psak that they didn’t understand, they would argue in learning! Nowadays, if someone dares to ask a question on a psak from a major posek, the response is usually, “Who are you to argue on Rav Ploni???” There was no blind following, nor should there be!
old man, that’s a very big “if” to assume. Who said a black hat and a jacket are the “only” respectful outfit for a man?
There was an interview, I believe with R’ Yosef Tendler zt”l, where he was asked about the early days in Lakewood. One of the questions asked was if the boys wore black hats. He responded that only the Roshei Yeshiva wore black hats, and the bochurim felt that it would have been extremely chutzpadik for them to wear one!
You can also read the interview given a few years ago by R’ Aaron Rakeffet, where he talks about learning in Lakewood during its early days. He says that even R’ Nosson Wachtfogel zt”l didn’t wear a black hat – only R’ Aharon Kotler wore one. He also said that the boys didn’t wear white shirts or black pants. He said the following:
“But when all is said and done, the chassidim conquered America. The Litvakim lost. In the Litvishe yeshivas no one dressed the same. When I learned in Lakewood, the only one who wore a black hat was Reb Aharon Kotler.”
Excellence: You should definitely be careful to only buy from a certified hat store. Look for one that has a hechsher in the window. Don’t be fooled! Many will tell you that hats don’t require a hechsher. Don’t listen to them!!! I don’t know about hechsherim in Sydney, so I can’t be of any help to you in recommending a store.
hakohen53: Say what you want, but the halachah clearly states that the dress code for davening is based on what is considered respectful for that time and place. If you want to argue that people aren’t keeping that much, go ahead, but recognize that it’s a new approach to determining the dress code for tefillah.
You say people come without socks, wearing sandals – in some places that may be ok! I’m sure there are countries in the Middle East where that is considered respectful, and people would go meet their king/president/Prime Minister wearing sandals. If that is the case, it’s fine to dress that way in that area. In the US, you wouldn’t go on a job interview wearing sandals, so you shouldn’t go to daven wearing them either. The fact that some do it doesn’t have anything to do with a hat and/or jacket. I’ve seen people wearing hats and jackets at shul with jeans and a t-shirt underneath. Very often, the hat is beat up, and the jacket needed to be cleaned 6 months ago.
Your last point is true, but I don’t see what you’re trying to say. Nobody says there shouldn’t be a dress code for davening. Everyone agrees there is. You must be dressed in a respectful fashion. The only question is whether that means a hat or not. It wasn’t an excuse to wear sandals to davening.
I got mine on Amazon.com and yes, it is waterproof. It better be, because I bought it specifically for when it rains. My Shabbos rain coat doesn’t have a hood, so I got the rain hat to wear with it.
The Mishna Berurah states that a person should dress respectfully for davening. He quotes the Chayei Adam who said that since people usually walk in the street with a hat, a hat should be worn during davening. It is obvious that the “respectful” mode of dress changes based on the society one lives in. In the early 20th century, when it was considered respectful to wear a hat, that was required for davening. In modern times, however, it is rare for most people to wear hats (unless they’re attending a sporting event). It would seem, therefore, that it is not required.
In fact, it would seem that not wearing a hat is better than wearing a beat-up fedorah with stains on it (as I often see in yeshivos). Wearing a beat-up hat is definitely disrespectful!
It would seem the best practice is to make sure you’re dressed neatly, with clean clothes, and your shirt tucked in. Wearing a t-shirt with a jacket over it isn’t the way to go. Wear a nice button-down shirt. If you were going to meet the president, would you wear jeans and a t-shirt?
Of course, this thread needs the famous story with R’ Yoelish. He had a good relationship with R’ Moshe Sherer zt”l. One day a chossid asked him why he didn’t push R’ Sherer to grow a beard. The response was, “When R’ Sherer gets up to Shamayim, they will say, R’ Yid, where is your beard? When you get up to Shamayim, they will ask, R’ Beard, where is the Yid?”
Just to note, I’ve seen the story with R’ Sherer zt”l, Mike Tress zt”l, and R’ Leib Malin. I have no clue who it really happened with. I just wrote R’ Sherer this time because he was the one who popped into my head.
Joseph, R’ Yaakov definitely held that Israel regaining control of the Har HaBayit was a great thing. R’ Reisman shlita told over the story of how R’ Yaakov zt”l made a Shehechiyanu and began saying Hallel when the announcement came over the air that the Har HaBayit had been taken by the IDF. The story was also verified by R’ Dovid Landesman, a mechanech who lives in Israel, and was a student in Torah V’Daas at the time.
According to the NY State Education Department website:
State-funded programs and services include: Health Services, Homebound Instruction, Textbook Loan Program, Computer Software Loan Program, School Library Materials Loan Program, Transportation (students must reside within 15 miles of the nonpublic school), Special Education Services, Dual Enrollment Programs, and Mandated Services Reimbursement.
So these are the things that are paid for. However, not everything is given to the school. For example, Special Education may be offered in the Public school system. The reasoning is that in the public school, they already have the necessary people on staff, and it won’t cost them much if another kid comes in. Private schools tend to have less need, and it would cost far more than it does in public school. Busing is another good example. They provide transportation, but it doesn’t have to be door-to-door service. They can require centralized bus-stops to cut down on the costs. This may mean some kids have to walk a bit to a bus-stop, and a parent may need to walk with them and supervise the bus-stop until the kids are picked up.
If the issue is not leaving the house, then why driving? Why not say they can’t use a car service, or a bus? Or just say women shouldn’t leave the house?
Sharing Torah is always admirable!
That said, I have an issue with your post. You said, “It pains me when i hear/see people asking “kashas” on reb chaim when in reality, if they would truly understand the shtickel, they would see why their kasha is literally a joke.”
Isn’t asking questions part of learning? When you hear people asking questions, it should make you happy to see/hear people trying to understand! It means they want to understand, and are working hard at it. It should never pain us to see someone working hard in learning, even if they don’t yet understand something.
I wish you hatzlachah in your worthy endeavor of sharing the Torah of R’ Chaim!
Yes, this was a good thread. I read through it a long time ago – Feif Un had told me I’d get a good laugh out of it.
It had Joseph using 7 different names to have conversations with himself, and make it seem like people actually agreed with him!
I didn’t read every post here. I skimmed through some of them, and would like to share my thoughts.
In a hospital, as in every place, there are both good and bad workers. I’ve had good stories and bad stories, within the same hospital, sometimes even on the same day!
Once, I had to call Hatzalah for my wife. She was taken to the hospital, and it turned out she had an issue which, besides being potentially fatal, can sometimes cause excruciating pain. During the night, the pain got really bad. We paged the nurse as soon as it started. It took a while, and the nurse didn’t come – the medical tech (I believe that’s the title) came. She was absolutely nasty to my wife. My wife was crying from the pain, and the tech told her to stop being a baby, and just tell her what was wrong. I told the tech my wife couldn’t really speak, and I’d tell her what it was. She turned to me, and said, “Shut up, I want to hear it from her. Not from you.” I promptly told her to leave the room before I physically threw her out, and I want a different person on my wife’s case. I told the nurse what happened. She told me the techs didn’t work for the hospital, they worked for an agency the hospital contracted with. They switched around different areas so much that they never got punished for bad service, because they never got multiple complaints – they weren’t in one place long enough for it! The hospital ignored complaints because they knew they’d be gone soon.
The nurse said she’d personally take care of my wife, and wouldn’t send a tech anymore. The nurse was absolutely wonderful! She was attentive, caring, and took excellent care of my wife for the few days she had to be in the hospital.
A poster mentioned Mt. Sinai. I also must comment that my twins were born there. Even though we lived in NJ, we went there, because they have the best NICU in the area, and the pregnancy was difficult. Sure enough, our twins were preemies, and needed the NICU. The staff in the L&D ward where my wife was on bed rest for a while was amazing. After our kids were born, the NICU staff was even better. B”H our kids are doing amazing, and we still have a tremendous amount of hakaras hatov to Mt. Sinai hospital for all they did for us.
Little Froggie: in a residential area, yes, I would. I’ve had times where neighbors were having a party outdoors, running very late, and causing a lot of noise. I called the police. The town has a noise ordinance, and they should be following it.
Besides, why do you compare this to people celebrating the World Series? Shouldn’t we, as Jews, hold ourselves to a higher standard?
Of course, “unusual and extraordinary circumstances” probably means the baal simchah is a donor to the shul/yeshiva of the Rav.
I saw another interview about the KosherSwitch the other day. Some woman who is using it just speaks about how much easier it makes things. How she once had a guest at her house who drank too much, and needed to stay over at their house. The basement was pitch black so she couldn’t prepare a bed, but thanks to the KosherSwitch, she was able to! Her kids turned off the bathroom light, but luckily, they had KosherSwitch! Then she makes a small comment about how her Rav says it’s ok to use.
I think they minimized the most important aspect of it: her Rav said it’s ok! I don’t look down on this woman at all. She is following a psak from her Rav, which is what she should be doing! But they put this out there to tell us, “Look, KosherSwitch will enhance your Shabbos!” But what about most of us, whose Rabbonim forbid using it? It doesn’t matter how much easier it makes things if we’re not allowed to use it!
The Rav the woman uses may or may not be knowledgeable. I have no clue who he is. But if he did make a mistake, and his congregants are using the switch because of it, he will be held responsible.
newbee: Do I look forward to some of the foods I have on Shabbos? Absolutely! Not because I stuff my face (which I try not to do!) but because the foods are good! Isn’t that the point, to eat special foods on Shabbos?
Honestly, there are plenty of foods I don’t eat during the week. There are some I don’t have on Shabbos, but only on a Yom Tov. Do I do it purely l’kovod Yom Tov? Probably not at this point. I actually am careful to say “l’kovod Yom Tov!” while preparing the food. Even if it’s not the case, I hope that one day I will get to that level.
oyyoyyoy: So what exactly is wrong with it? I don’t understand what your issue is.
akuperma: When everyone wore respectable clothes, I also doubt that tzius was taught/enforced the way it is today. There weren’t teachers with rulers measuring how far below the knee a girl’s skirt was reaching. They probably didn’t have rules about how a girl should tie back her hair. No rules on what color clothes girls should wear. The chumros just keep piling up, and it turns people off to the whole concept.
OP, there are two aspects to this: first, what you hold for yourself. Second, if others are accepting of you.
For the first part, as oot said, find yourself a Rav and stick with him! But don’t choose the Rav based on his answer to this question. Don’t even tell him about it until you’ve decided to follow him.
For the second part, do you care about it? If you do, then it depends how important it is to you. You may have to go through a geirus l’chumrah to satisfy everyone.
Hatzlachah!
Joseph: I’d say the shittah is worse, because then people think it’s ok to do.
I’ve never seen the ads you are talking about. Then again, I don’t read the Jewish Press.
Joseph: Yes, I have. My Rosh Yeshiva, R’ Bender, once told me he even asked a chassidish Rav about zman krias Shema. The Rav responded, “In Europe, do you think they were so makpid? Did they sit with watches to see when it was zman krias Shema? No!”
What about davening Mincha long after shekiah?
I’ve heard very good things about Pardes, although I haven’t been there myself. I also heard The Loft is very good.
Wow, I agree with Joseph. Chap-a-Nosh has the closest burger to what KD had. However, that doesn’t make it the best. It’s a cheap fast-food burger.
There are plenty of places to find a good burger. Just realize that you will likely pay far more than you would for the fast-food burger. A beef burger at Chap-a-Nosh is $3.99. A Super Burger (like a KD Burger Delight) is $6.99.
At Gotham Burger (since it was mentioned before), a regular burger is $9.50. Their specialty burgers are more.
You get what you pay for.
mdd: Because of the main elements of tznius is to not wear things which can draw attention to yourself. Doing things differently than the societal norms can draw attention.
You had left out which chelek it was in.
Can you please post where in the S”A it brings down the pasuk of kol kevudah and explains a meaning for it?
Joseph: I’m going to try and find out the answer to your question on a minhag to not be makpid on something in the Shulchan Aruch. I’ll start by asking a Chassidishe Rebbe about ignoring zman krias shema.
Joseph: Thanks for letting me know. I’ll file that story next to the one about R’ Moshe throwing up after drinking chalav stam.
Joseph, why are you bumping your old threads? This was one you started with a question, then posted some answers with a different screen name of yours. Classy.
Joseph, they also had a reverse split, so the $1 value from 6 years ago would be like $10 today. So yes, if you invested at $1, you would have about 5.4x the amount now. Not enough to retire on!
AIG also had a reverse split – 1:20. I believe that if you invested when they were near their lowest point, you would have about doubled your money there.
The parents need to grow up. They should seek some guidance to get over their racism.
Can we take the prenup conversation back to its thread? This was supposed to be a spin-off, not the actual discussion!
PBA: It really depends on the situation, and your definition of hashkafah vs. halachah.
For example, you might say meshichism (the Lubavitch type) is a hashkafah. My Rav would view his stance on the issue as a binding psak. He views the hashkafah as violating halachah.
Halachah and hashkafah are not mutually exclusive. There is overlap.
PBA: I’m not entirely clear on your question. Do I ask my Rav questions on hashkafah, which aren’t halachically related? Absolutely. But he himself will tell me it’s not a psak halachah, it’s just advice. He’s told me many times that while he can tell me what is optimal, every person needs to know where they stand, and act accordingly. If it’s something I’m not looking to improve on, I usually won’t even ask him, so I won’t get an opinion either way. If it’s something said in a shiur/drasha, I’ll usually speak with him afterward about how it impact my personal case. I almost always follow his advice.
Joseph: I read the discussion. But my Rav told me that people should use the pre-nup, and I defer to him in halachic matters.
As was pointed out, R’ Elyashiv’s teshuva does not say the pre-nup invalidates the get, he just points out that there are those who do say that, so therefore l’chatchilah, you shouldn’t use it. That seems to say that b’dieved, even R’ Elyashiv zt”l held it was ok.
My Rav is a student of HaGaon R’ Hershel Schachter, who is definitely big enough to say the pre-nup is fine.
You say they are incorrect about the mezonos issue. That may be your opinion. But don’t you hold that Daas Torah means you should be mevatel your own Daas to that of the Rav?
Did it occur to you that they are more knowledgeable than you are in Halachah, and you should defer to them?
And? What did they tell you?
Joseph: Again, instead of trying to argue the halachos here, contact a Rav who is knowledgeable and supports the pre-nup, and ask your questions! As I mentioned, R’ Teitz in Elizabeth is a big proponent, so why not ask him about it? I’m sure he’s reachable.
Matan1: I read an article which stated that R’ Teitz from Elizabeth won’t be mesader kiddushin without a pre-nup. Not only that, it said that he actually makes an announcement about it at the wedding, before the badekin. He has them sign it at the wedding. He says it’s to show people he is in favor of it, and to encourage others to do it.
Disclaimer: I’ve never seen it in person. I also asked a friend of mine who lives in Elizabeth about it, and he laughed at me – he said R’ Teitz doesn’t like to be mesader kiddushin. His “thing” is to read the kesubah. (I’m sure that he has been the mesader kiddushin when asked, though!)
Joseph, why don’t you contact R’ Osher Weiss, and ask him how he can endorse it? That would give you a far greater insight than posting here. You can also contact R’ Zalman Nechemia Goldberg, a member of the Beis Din of Yerushalayim (as well as a son-in-law of R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt”l).
Health, I never said you’re Satmar, but the opinions you espouse come from Satmar.
Second, the truth doesn’t bother me at all. As I said before, the shoe fits equally well on both feet. Why does it bother you?
Health: The shoe fits just as well on both feet. You stop with your Satmar lies!
kj chussid: It’s good practice. I know something else that will be burning eventually…