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HaKatan, you claim the MO was invented by HaGaon R’ Soloveitchik zt”l about 50 years ago. Can you please specify, what did he invent? Did he change halachos? What halachos were they? What did he invent that was a change? How did it differ than “inventions” such as those of R’ Moshe Feinstein and R’ SZ Auerbach zt”l? They “invented” halachos as well – for example, the question of a Shabbos clock, or for medical situations that never existed before. They “invented” the piskei halachah for the new situations that arose – as did R’ Soloveitchik zt”l.
There were times I didn’t go to shul because of bad weather. One Shabbos the temperature was very low, it was very windy, and it was snowing heavily. It had snowed earlier in the week, and many of the streets were still icy. I didn’t walk to shul, because it was dangerous. There was once a bad storm on a Shabbos, and there were big branches falling in my neighborhood. I didn’t walk to shul for Mincha or Maariv, for fear of a falling branch.
But I never missed going to shul just because of a fear of getting wet! I’ve walked to shul in downpours, in snowstorms, and temperatures in the single and triple digits.
Wow. Good point. Can’t believe nobody started a thread about this yet. [/sarcasm]
Joseph, I have a waterproof raincoat and a waterproof rain hat. I’ll wear them to walk to shul.
After we die, when we are judged, they may ask, “How important was it for you to go to shul?” I don’t want to say, “It was more important that I stay dry!” I’d like to be able to say, “Important enough that I walked in the rain to make sure I got there!”
When it’s windy, the coat doesn’t always do the job. It only comes down to about my knees, so my pants legs can get soaked. When that happens, I’ll usually end up changing when I get home.
This thread is now going places I really want to avoid, and I will now tr to refrain from posting here.
Can we at least agree that MO Rabbonim definitely are following/teaching a very valid derech? Yes, there are unfortunately those who don’t follow it, but that shouldn’t change the fact that the derech being taught is a proper one.
Personally, I try to follow what my Rav says. Are there times I slip? Of course – doesn’t everyone at times? But at the end of the day, I recognize my mistakes for what they are, and try to do better. I also think that almost everyone in my community is the same way.
yfr: Yes, I posted that, in this thread, a year ago.
DY: I think you’re wrong. I’ve actually had different conversations with my Rav about this. If someone is not Shomer Shabbos, they won’t be counted for a minyan, and people won’t eat by their house. If someone relies on hechsherim that I don’t use, I won’t eat by them.
At the end of the day, I think that what comes out of this is that there are many people who misunderstand Modern Orthodoxy. There are the chareidim who don’t understand what it stands for, and there are the Conservadox who can’t admit they’re leaning towards being Conservative, and are trying to hold onto the Orthodox label, who claim “I’m modern!” as a reason to do things which aren’t allowed.
The “true” Modern Orthodox, as defined by its Rabbonim, is perfectly legitimate.
Joseph, you mentioned no chareidi tax cheats. Yet a prominent chareidi posek got up in a shul in Teaneck a few years ago, and said publicly that there is nothing wrong halachically with cheating on your taxes.
This is where I think the difference lies between writing someone off vs looking at the group as wrong – if the group’s official stance is that something is ok or not. If chareidi Rabbonim say cheating on taxes is ok, that would make it a chareidi issue. If MO Rabbonim would say married women not covering hair is ok, that would be an issue. If Rabboniim say it’s NOT ok, and people do it anyway, it’s an issue with the person, not the derech.
DY: Agreed, many don’t. But most posters here are focusing on the MO people who don’t, while ignoring the fact that there are many chareidim who also don’t.
Why is it that people look at the MO people who don’t follow the rules and claim they represent the “true” MO, but chareidim who don’t follow the rules are deemed the exceptions?
yekke2: What exactly does it say when people from homes that aren’t Shomer Shabbos attend MO schools? That we’re more accepting, and hope to set people on the right path? Would those kids be allowed within 50 feet of a chareidi school?
yekke2: Try reading Torah Umadda by R’ Norman Lamm. He goes through different approaches, including the Rambam and R’ Hirsch, showing why ALL knowledge really helps with understanding the Torah (and therefore isn’t really secular).
Many posters here have commented on MO and tznius. Do MO and chareidim have the same levels? No. However, to say MO does it wrong is incorrect. Chareidim take on many extra chumros when it comes to tznius. This isn’t halachah, it’s chumrah. Most MO don’t take on most of those chumros. Does that mean it violates halachah? Absolutely not! Now, are there those who don’t keep even the basic halachic standards? Yes, of course there are. Just as there are chareidim who also don’t keep them. There are also chareidim who violate biblical prohibitions on other things, as well as MO who violate the same things. Nobody is perfect, and every group has its black sheep. That doesn’t mean the underlying ideology is wrong.
richashu, as was asked before, I wonder how many from your class came from frum homes, or if your statistics are true at all. I’ve never seen anything like what you talk about, from any MO school. The only similar case I know of is my wife’s high school class – and that was a Beis Yaakov! Out of 20 girls, 13 of them went off the derech. One of the 13 became a baal teshuva afterward.
You think MO people don’t learn much? Come to my shul. We have 3 daf yomi shiurim every day, which are all well attended. The earliest one begins at 5:30 am. There are shiurim and/or chaburos given nightly. Many men learn b’chavrusah with kollel members every night. On Shabbos, many people (myself included) forgo a Shabbos afternoon nap to attend multiple shiurim. Try walking into the RIETS Beis Medrash any given night. See if MO people aren’t learning.
Here we go again…
First of all, ignore anything Joseph has to say on the subject.
The majority of Modern Orthodox people are fully shomrei halachah, just like chareidi Jews. Are there those who aren’t? Obviously, just as with any group.
The main difference is in how to relate to the world around us. Modern Orthodoxy does not seek to shelter itself from the outside world. It believes that since we will have to interact with it, it is better to understand it, and know how to deal with it. Chareidi Judaism believes it’s better to shield yourself from the world, and not expose yourself to the temptations that are out there. The end result is that chareidim are “safer” earlier on, but can have a hard time adjusting when the exposure eventually comes. MO may have some who give in to the temptations earlier on, but later are better at dealing with the world because they are prepared for it.
Another difference is the view on secular knowledge. Chareidi Judaism is mostly against studying anything other than Torah, with the possible exception of studying to earn a living. MO believe that since all knowledge comes from Hashem, and has its source in the Torah, it is worth studying. Even if it won’t help you learn Gemarah, it still can help you relate to the world that Hashem created, and appreciate it better.
One more difference is how to view Israel. That’s been discussed ad nauseam here, and I don’t see a need to go into details.
Here are some I’ve used:
Ish Chassid
M’kolos mayim rabim
Carlebach’s Kah Ribon
Breslov Lecha Dodi tune (I think it’s Breslov)
Joseph, where in the Kovetz Teshuvos?
Joseph, do you have anything to say about the Igros Moshe I posted above, which seems to say it’s ok to go onto certain areas of the Har HaBayis?
Ok, who wrote the teshuvos? Where can they be found?
I believe I’ve written this before:
In the Mir yeshiva, on Yomim Noraim, they don’t sing anything. When Darchei first started having a minyan for the Yomim Noraim, R’ Bender shlita asked R’ Shmuel Berenbaum zt”l if Darchei (which considers itself an offshoot of Mir) should also not sing. R’ Berenbaum replied that people today need singing to stay involved in the davening – without it, they tend to “space out” and can’t concentrate for the entire time.
This was said for the Yomim Noraim, but perhaps it applies for other times as well?
chareidimolim: that’s an excellent point. Where are the written teshuvos on this issue? Rabbonim have said many, many times that if something wasn’t written down by them as a teshuva, it shouldn’t be taken as a psak by the general public. It may have been a psak for a specific person in a certain circumstance, or it may have been taken out of context. Did R’ Elyashiv zt”l or R’ Chaim Kanievsky shlita ever write a teshuva on the issue?
Don’t know. When I was in Darchei Torah, they almost always sang Kedushah by Shacharis. I don’t remember what they did for Kel Adon. For Hallel, they sang Halelu and Pischu Li.
Such as what?
Last night, I saw a news story that was run by a NY news site on Yom Kippur about kapparos. It showed videos of the chickens being slaughtered, then dumped into garbage bags. The garbage bags sat out in the sun without refrigeration for hours – often overnight. The next day, many of the garbage bags, without even being looked at, were just thrown into the garbage truck when it came to do the regular pickup. The people involved in the kapparos helped the workers get the bags into the truck.
Is this really what we want to be doing? As usual, I did kapparos with money this year. Immediately after, I donated money to tzedakah. Now I know that the money I gave is going straight to tzedakah, and not to line the pockets of some unscrupulous people.
Joseph, look at Igros Moshe, OC 2:113. R’ Moshe answers a questions regarding the Har HaBayis.
The question was raised about why the Shulchan Aruch and the Tur both don’t mention an issur of spitting on the Har HaBayis in modern times. The person who asked gave a possible explanation that the question is irrelevant since nobody is allowed on the Har HaBayis in modern times. R’ Moshe rejects that answer, and says that there are parts where people are allowed to walk. He then gives a different answer regarding the spitting question.
From this, it appears that R’ Moshe held it was allowed to go on the Har HaBayis – indeed, R’ Tendler has said many times that R’ Moshe was well aware of R’ Tendler’s going onto the Har HaBayis, and never attempted to dissuade him from doing so.
There is a video of R’ Tendler on the Har HaBayis, where he comments on a mitzvah he tries to do there – there is a tree growing there, and he breaks off a branch and takes it with him. He says no trees are supposed to be grown on the Har HaBayis, and he therefore tries to minimize the growth there. He said he takes the branch home, and burns it.
Once again, people are our protesting against kapparos, and it’s making the news.
While I think the motives of some (many?) of the protesters are not just about the animals, I (once again) do agree with the message somewhat. As in the past, the way the chickens are handled is appalling. I have no issue with the idea of doing kapparos with chickens, as long as they are treated properly. Leaving them out in the sun, stuffed in crates, without giving them food or water, is not the right way. It’s pure tzar baalei chaim. I truly believe the organizers of these places are doing more harm than good for themselves during the yimei hadin, by doing this mitzvah ha’bah b’aveirah. When they show such disregard for one of Hashem’s creations, why should they expect Hashem to look favorably at them?
I was made aware of another issue this year. A friend of mine went to a place where they use chickens, and told me that they do the shechitah right there. He said that the amount of chickens that are not slaughtered properly, and therefore can’t be eaten by Jews, is far more than it should be. He said almost half the chicken ended up in garbage bags because of it.
Once again, I will be doing kapparos with money. I know that when I donate money to tzedakah, it will all go to the right places – half of it won’t go into the garbage.
Can we please clean up the act of the people running these kapparos areas, and create a kiddush Hashem instead of the horrible chillul Hashem that has been going on for years?
They were likely influenced by the local languages that were spoken. I’ve heard from many people (including Rabbonim) that the Teimanim have the closest to the “true” havarah.
There are things to look at to try and see which are more correct than others. For example, look at the cholem pronunciation. Some pronounce it as “oh”, some (mostly in the yeshiva and chassidish world) use “oy”.
The Gra wrote that the cholem is a combination of a kamatz katan and a shuruk, and is formed with the lips. That would indicate the “oh” sound, as “oy” is formed with the tongue and the top of the mouth.
There are also numerous seforim which point out how to be makpid on pronunciation while saying Shema. They point out the words which end with a yud sound and begin with an “open” sound, such as “mitzvosai asher”, saying that one should pause so the yud sound doesn’t carry over and make “asher” sound like “yashar”. They also mention words which ends with a sound and the next word begins with the same sound, so that you have 2 distinct sounds, and not one which runs from one word to the next. They mention each instance, but do not mention the cholems such as v’lo yihyeh and b’ito yoresh. If they were pronounced as “oy”, these should be on the list of places to be careful!
R’ Henkin zt”l, in Eidus L’Yisrael, says that we should adopt the Sefardic pronunciation of the letters, but not the vowels. R’ Ovadia Yosef zt”l paskened that while one should hear Parshas Zachor in the havarah he/she usually uses in order to be yotzei, anyone can hear it with the Sefardic pronunciation and be yotzei, as it is the “correct” pronunciation.
As for other havaras, there is also the yekke havarah, the Ladino havarah, and I’m sure plenty of others.
I think your thread title is really funny. Yes, good advice will hopefully prevent fighting.
As was written 6 years ago, it can make a difference in texture. A good option is using Smart Balance instead of margarine.
hachareidy hoamity: you are translating sheker hachein incorrectly. It doesn’t mean that beauty isn’t worth anything – especially in a marriage, finding your spouse attractive is extremely important! Rather, it’s saying that a PERSON is not worthy of praise for being beautiful, as it’s not something they did themselves.
People love to quote the Mishna which says the girls used to say that on Tu B’Av and Yom Kippur when they’d come out and dance. They forget that it was said by girls who were not attractive, and were trying to attract a husband. In fact, the same Mishna says that the beautiful girls used to mention their beauty!
Chein is different than physical beauty. To say a husband should ignore physical appearance for the Yiras Hashem his wife has is just ignorant. The Gemara says that a husband should see his wife before they are married to be sure he finds her attractive.
Joe, Congress made it clear that the agreement wouldn’t be binding on a future president – didn’t the Republicans send a letter to Iran stating that to be the case? So everyone is fully aware that another president can back out, and a Republican president probably would.
As for your toothpaste comment, that’s not necessarily true. The US is involved in a huge amount of the business Iran does, whether directly or indirectly. Transactions between Iran and other countries can have problems if banks with branches in the US are involved – the US can freeze the funds. Some other countries will also go along with the US.
You’re wrong about one thing – the agreement won’t pass into law. The president can make agreements, and they are not considered laws. His agreements must comply with the laws of the US. That’s why Congress can stop the deal – they can pass a law which makes the deal illegal. Obama will veto such a bill. Obama has enough support to stop the override of a veto. Whoever is the next president can choose to back out from the deal if they want.
On this site, I see a lot of praise for R’ Chaim Kanievsky and R’ Shteinman. I’ve seen a lot of criticism towards R’ Tendler and other YU Rabbonim.
Did anyone see Lipa’s video? He wants to stop the foolishness of women shaving their hair off. He says in today’s times, where temptation is everywhere, woman should want to appear more beautiful for their husbands. In this week’s parshah, it says a woman with a shaved head is ugly. Why would a woman want to look ugly to her husband?
It depends what kind of law.
I once heard a story about this issue. I believe it was with the Chofetz Chaim, although I’m not 100% sure. A shochet came to the Chofetz Chaim, and told him that he wanted to switch careers. He said the halachos of shechitah were too complex, and he was always nervous about messing up on a small detail. Instead, he said, he wanted to open a business.
The Chofetz Chaim responded, “And you think that the halachos of running a business aren’t complex? Choshen Mishpat is from the most complex halachos! How can you open a business without first knowing Choshen Mishpat? It’s better to stay a shochet – the halachos there are simple compared to running a business!”
If you’re going to undertake something, make sure you know what’s involved first! Yes, there are times in life where you may be pushed into a situation where you don’t know the laws, and you do your best. But you should try to know the laws that are likely to have an impact on your life.
I was once told by my Rosh Yeshiva, R’ Bender shlita, that what is considered beged ish/isha can change based on societal norms. For example, he told me that pants are no longer considered beged ish. It would seem that since it’s normal for men to dye their hair nowadays, it would be allowed.
I miss the Great American Scream Machine…