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addict, absolutely not. A restaurant is a business, and exists to make a profit. If the owner wants to have a specific clientele, and a certain atmosphere in the restaurant, he can do so. A person doesn’t have to eat in a restaurant – it’s a luxury, and a person can easily do without it.
When it comes to a shul, it exists to help the people, not its leadership. It is a place for people to daven. Stopping someone from davening with a minyan goes against what a shul stands for.Joe: R’ Zilberstein said that for a yeshiva bachur, who regularly wears a hat and jacket to davening, it’s better to daven b’yichidus wtih a hat and jacket. For someone who doesn’t wear a hat regularly, he doesn’t apply this. Perhaps R’ Chaim’s opinion is specifically for someone who regularly wears a hat? Then you also run into the question of, what if the person doesn’t have a hat available, and wouldn’t be able to daven b’yichidus with a hat either?
R’ Shlomo Zalman disagreed with R’ Chaim, and held that it’s better to daven with a minyan. When it comes to an issue like this, where one person’s davening has no effect on someone else’s, you have no right to impose the opinion you may follow on someone else, who also has a valid psak.
A shul has no right to ban someone just because they’re not wearing a hat and/or jacket.All the examples given of when do daven b’yichidus are either as a b’dieved, or if someone is already engaged in a different mitzvah, or to avoid bothering others (such as on a plane.) You know what isn’t listed? When someone doesn’t have a hat and jacket…
Joe, where does R’ Moshe say that? As far as I know, there is not a ninth chelek of Igros Moshe on Orech Chaim.
The Mishna Berurah (90:28) says a man has an obligation to daven with a minyan.
I believe R’ Moshe wrote that davening with a minyan is a chiyuv d’Rabbanan. I’ll try to find the exact source.
common: Do you really not see a difference? There is no chiyuv to have liquor at a kiddush. There is a chiyuv to daven with a minyan.
Could Be: you left out part of the story. In Ponovezh they didn’t say Tachnun on Yom Ha’atzmaut either, and the Rav said that he does like Ben Gurion – no Tachnun and no Hallel. When the Rav passed away, the minhag was changed.
There were similarities to both DL and chareidim, but I think the gedolim of the past were closer to DL.
Many Rabbonim had jobs to support themselves, and didn’t just learn the whole day.
R’ Akiva Eiger wanted to arrange to bring a korbon Pesach, and actually asked the Chasam Sofer to speak to the ruler of Yerushalayim and request permission. That’s definitely a position that is closer to DL than to chareidi. It also shows that he held that one could go on the Temple Mount.
The Rabbonim then held by the halachah, and didn’t implement chumros on everything.Square Root, there was an interview with R’ Aaron Rakeffet-Rothkoff, where he spoke about that. Here are his words: “Today we all wear uniforms. What is the concept of wearing a uniform? What is chassidus all about? It’s beautiful. You have a social order, you build a wall around yourself . It’s a way of protecting yourself from outside influence. My generation didn’t need it. When we made a commitment, we made a commitment. That’s what I meant.
But if a black hat will keep you frum in America, you should wear two black hats, not just one. To me, being a Torah Jew is the most important thing in the world .
But when all is said and done, the chassidim conquered America. The Litvakim lost. In the Litvishe yeshivas no one dressed the same. When I learned in Lakewood, the only one who wore a black hat was Reb Aharon Kotler.
Even the old mashgiach, Reb Nosson Wachtfogel, wouldn’t dare wear a black hat. No one wore black pants and white shirts. It was unheard of. Everyone dressed different and stylish.”
The interviewer asked, “So you see the different mode of dress as a sign that chassidim have ‘conquered America’?”
He replied, “More than that. We think like them. There’s da’as Torah. Bachurim worship the ground their rosh yeshiva walks on. That didn’t exist when I grew up. When I grew up the roshei yeshiva were mortals. There was no da’as Torah. You could argue with them. But who ever argued with a chassidic rebbe?”
The V’yalipoler Rav, R’ Frankel, has a son who has a shul in Brooklyn. I had relatives who lived nearby the shul, so I davened there quite a few times.
One Shabbos, the gabbai (who was a friend of my relative) asked me to daven Kabbalas Shabbos for the amud, and I did so. R’ Frankel gave me a heart yasher koach when davening finished.
The next time I visited, there was a change in the shul – the gabbai wasn’t davening there anymore, and there was a new gabbai. He came over to me, and said, “The Rav specifically asked that you go daven for the amud!” This occurred many more times – he had no problem asking me, without a black hat, wearing a colored knit kippah, to daven for the amud.Gadolhadorah: one can’t simply start a new mesorah. They were passed down from parent to child and Rebbe to student, and go all the way back to Moshe Rabbeinu. The reason some groups have different ways of doing things can be explained in various ways:
– There are opinions that each shevet had it’s own mehalech – maybe the different minhagim now are based on those?
– Sometimes different students could understand their Rebbe in different ways, and then there was a difference in how they practiced.Chassidus did not have a mesorah. The Besht claimed that he ascended to Heaven, and Achiyah haShiloni taught it to him. There were many radical changes to traditional Judaism in the Besht’s teachings.
Joe, that’s just plain not true. Don’t make things up. As an example, look at pictures of R’ Shneur Kotler as a young man (there’s a famous one from when he was in the Chevron Yeshiva). His clothing was the same as was commonly worn by most people (non-Jews) during that period.
Neville, AFAIK, Sefardim say tachanun most of the time. It’s Chassidim who don’t. Davening nusach s’fard is very different than being a Sefardi.
As far as mesorah, Chassidim don’t have a real Mesorah, because it only dates back a few hundred years.Neville, I don’t see any “silly” arguments. The fact is that the Mishna Berurah specified that respectful dress is based on the time and place, and it changes. He wrote that in his time and place, a hat is considered respectful. Given that in the US, wearing a hat is considered disrespectful in some cases (such as when in a courtroom, or when the National Anthem is played), I’d say that it may not apply anymore.
R’ Bender has said that a hat and jacket represent the uniform of a yeshiva bochur (or someone who considers themselves a member of that group/system, including adults.) He never once told me that it’s a requirement for davening – in fact, I’ve davened for the amud at some Darchei alumni events that were not held at the yeshiva, and did not wear a hat. I was not a chiyuv, but yet I was asked to lead the davening. R’ Bender had no issue with it.
I don’t consider myself a member of the yeshivish community, so wouldn’t it be dishonest to portray myself as such?Neville: The Pale of Settlement was a section in Russia where Jews were allowed to live. Outside that area, Jews were not allowed to establish a permanent residency (although there were some exceptions).
Regarding Tachanun: non-chassidim generally stick to following the Shulchan Aruch/Mishna Berurah when it comes to the days we say or don’t say Tachanun. Days generally aren’t added to the list, and not for a yartzeit. The Shulchan Aruch doesn’t list the 7th of Adar as a day to skip Tachanun, and that is the yartzeit of Moshe Rabbeinu, so why would it be skipped for anyone else?
As for not saying Tachanun this week, the Sharei Teshuva in 131:7 brings down that there is a minhag not to say Tachanun until after Rosh Chodesh, with 2 reasons given: first, because the month is filled with Moadim, so we don’t say it through the end of the month. Second, since the month began with “inuy”, it is fitting for it to go out with simcha.Choosid, I’ve shared my thoughts on this before, and don’t want to write them all over again. You can find them in my previous posts.
The Shach says that one shouldn’t learn Kabbalah before the age of 40. The Rambam says that one shouldn’t learn Kabbalah unless you already have a firm understanding of non-Kabbalistic Torah – his words are that you shouldn’t go to the Pardes until one’s stomach is filled with bread and meat.
The Besht’s teaching Kabbalah to all was just another departure from traditional Judaism, without any mesorah for it.Benjamin, according to Google translate, he wrote “Hello to all my Moroccan friends who can read this.
I am telling the Ashkenazim that we do not eat kugel”The OP makes an assumption that everyone is a doctor already. A better analogy would be as follows:
There was a class of medical students, training to be surgeons. After the first year, some of the students realized that they didn’t have what it takes to finish the program and become a head surgeon. Some went off into other areas – research, internal medicine, or other non-surgical specialties. Some kept pushing to complete the program, although they would likely not succeed, and as time went on, they’d be known as lower-tier surgeons. Some switched to different fields entirely, determined to find the career that was best for them, that utilized their strengths, and they could shine in.Joe, as usual, you are full of garbage.
A person can go daven without wearing a hat and jacket and still be respectful. In fact, much of the time when I’m in Lakewood on a weekday, I see beat-up hats, and jackets that look like they haven’t been cleaned in months. That’s completely disrespectful.
When I go to shul, I wear nice clothing. You’ll never see me there in jeans and a t-shirt, because I know that’s not respectful. Even if I know I have to do manual work around the house that day, I’ll wear a nice button-down shirt to shul, then change to a polo or t-shirt for the work. There’s nothing wrong with that.Joe, part of teshuva is accepting to change your behavior, and not repeat the sins you’ve done.
Are you committing to actually changing?According to the CRC, they don’t need a hechsher, as long as they’re in the shell. If you’re buying liquid eggs (and obviously cooked eggs!), it does need a hechsher.
I’d posted this a while back on a separate thread:
The Riva says the left/right mentioned in the pasuk refers to Rabbonim telling us not to do a mitzvah such as Shofar on Shabbos, or Arba Minim on Shabbos. It only refers to a mitzvah that they are telling us NOT to do.The Yerushalmi says in Horios that the pasuk means only if they say right is right and left is left. If they say otherwise, you do not listen.
There are many shitos against Rashi. Indeed, both Rambam and Ramban do not pasken like Rashi in this regard. There is a Sifre which Rashi bases it on, but again, many question the Sifre, and there are Gemoros in both bavli and Yerushalmi that say otherwise. R’ Ovadia Yosef reconciles the two views as I mentioned above – you have to confront the Rav if you think he erred. Until you confront him, you do not listen. The Yad HaMelech states that if you listen when you think he erred just because you think you have to listen, you are required to bring a korbon chatas. Only after confronting the Rav with the opposing view, and he stands by what he said, are you required to listen.
Ok, qwerty, you want examples?
In post #2312699, you called him a loser.
In #2312747, you wrote, “He’s nasty, arrogant, condescending, insulting. He has every bad Middah. Clearly his Torah, and he knows a lot, has done nothing in the way of making him a Mensch.”
In #2312753, you called him a “lying phony”.
In #2313223, you wrote “he can add retard to his resume”.You also noted earlier that we’re supposed to avoid discussion with idolators, and that you can’t have a real discourse with Meshichist Chabadniks. Maybe take your own advice.
qwerty, please remember that “derachehah darchei noam v’chol nesivosehah shalom”. Just stop already. Don’t make things personal.
qwerty, it’s enough already. I’ve made it pretty clear in the past that I’m no fan of Chabad, but you’ve stopped to levels of hatred that I won’t go near. Stop this now. It should never be personal, but you’ve been extremely insulting to numerous posters. Take a step back, and look at where you’ve gone with it. Then think that maybe it’s time to stop.
I made a siyum on Maakos a few months ago. I didn’t say a lomdish vort, I went more with just a thought that had occurred to me.
If you look at the sugyos that deal with punishments that are bein adam l’makom, you can see just how much Hashem loves us. He made the rules so that it’s always easy to reduce punishments, and the “full” punishment seems to be rarely given.
Additionally, after going through a masechta that deals with punishments, just in case someone would think that Judaism is all about punishing us, it ends with a message of hope, and the promise of our redemption.
See how much Hashem loves us!Joe, you’re woefully ignorant of what was being negotiated.
Hamas wasn’t going to release hostages. One of the main sticking points was that Hamas wanted to release dead bodies, not living hostages, and Israel said no, it must be living people. Hamas refused to give in. So Netanyahu agreeing to a deal would not have helped these people.I wonder, if one were to actually look at the notes that are presented at the Ohel, how many would be asking the Rebbe for help directly, instead of asking for him to ask Hashem on the person’s behalf?
Yes, I know a guy. No, he’s not Jewish. He trimmed an entire huge branch from a tree in my yard, so that I wouldn’t have to trim it back every year. When I had estimates in the thousands from other people, he charged me under a thousand.
Anything else I can help you with?I was near a Rav this year. He actually came in a couple of minutes late to davening. He hasn’t been well, and sometimes has been davening at home because of it. When I saw him walk in, I immediately offered to get him a regular chair, because I know he can’t sit on the floor due to his health. He accepted. I tried to take it to the front of the room (we davened in the kiddush room to give more space for people on the floor), but he said no, and wanted to sit near the back.
After he finished shemonah esrei, he asked someone else who was sitting on a milk crate if there was an extra one. The man gave him one, and he sat on it, but with it standing up on it’s side, not face down. This left it as high as a regular chair. The man offered the Rav something to put on top of it, to make it more comfortable. The Rav declined, and said, “I can’t sit on the floor, let me at least feel some discomfort from the crate!”Lostspark, going to a kever is not avodah zarah by itself, it’s the tefillah you daven there that makes the difference. If you daven to Hashem and ask that the zchusim or the tzaddik should help your tefillos, that’s fine. But if you daven to the tzaddik, it’s assur.
Lostspark, that last paragraph was really uncalled for, and is beneath you.
Coffee why would you ask me that question? I didn’t know that bochurim were dancing at all, and I can’t say why they would have been. I’m not a Rabbi, and I definitely don’t know what psak someone else may have received.
The Gemara does NOT say Mashiach can come from the dead! It’s straight out in Rashi! Or does Chabad not hold by Rashi either?
Small one, I’ve written before about the Yemenites. I actually spoke to a Yemenite who came to Israel through Magic Carpet. He told me that the things said about it are completely false. He said that many of the Yemenite Jews didn’t want to stay frum when they arrived in Israel. They asked for scissors to cut off their peyos. The Israelis were all too happy to give it to them, but they didn’t force anyone.
Sechel, the Rambam states that Mashiach will be revealed in Eretz Yisrael, and will be an unknown until he is revealed. The Rebbe never fit that.
Sechel, you are misrepresenting R’ Leff’s views.
He completely opposes the idea that Mashiach can come from the dead. His letter for the kuntros simply states that while he once said that there are no sources at all for such a belief, now he sees there are.
As he wrote in another letter:
“OK, the truth is that according to basic Jewish sources Moshiach cannot come from someone who died.
Eventhough there seems to be sources in the Talmud that seem to imply perhaps that that is a possibility
there are other ways of learning those sources. And the fact that for 2000 years all the great rabbis used this
as an argument against Christianity that a Moshiach who came and died and is to return is not a Jewish
concept it is very hard now to say that it is a Jewish concept because for 2000 years we said it is not a
Jewish concept. And therefore the Rambam seems to say clearly that if someone comes and claims to be
Moshiach and he dies or is killed that he is definitely not Moshiach unless before he died and was killed he
built the Beis HaMikdosh, brought all Jews back into Eretz Yisroel, which obviously the Lubavitcher
Rebbe did not do before he died.”Joe, a relative of mine once told me he had a conversation with R’ Teitz from Elizabeth. Apparently in the school there, they teach two different pronunciations – one for davening/learning, and one for Ivrit. My relative asked him, “I can show you a dozen proofs regarding certain pronunciations, that the way you teach them for davening is incorrect. Would you change it?” R’ Teitz replied, “You can show me 1,000 proofs, and it wouldn’t matter to me. This is the way my father did it, and the way his father did it, and the way his father did it before him. Mesorah matters more than your proofs!”
SQUARE_ROOT, you’re 100% correct. Also, the fears of the Gra have been realized – one reason he opposed chassidus was because he foresaw a repeat of Shabbsai Zvi occurring. He was right.
coffee: According to R’ Schachter shlita, Yom ha’Atzmaut and Yom Yerushalayim are considered steps in the geulah, so they have a din of a quasi-Yom Tov. That would explain why there’s no Tachanun. Killing an enemy likely isn’t considered such a step.
People can call Yiddish “mama lashon” all they want, but there is only one mother tongue for Jews, and that is Lashon Kodesh. Yiddish is just a corrupted German, with snippets of other languages (including Hebrew) thrown in. It became popular among Jews because that’s where they mostly lived.
I suggest you read Pirkei Avos, where it differentiates between machlokes l’sheim Shamayim and other machlokes. There can definitely be disagreements, and you can even say things against a belief, as long as it’s for the proper reason.
Yserbius: where I live, I know of a few people, including local Rabbonim, who won’t step foot into the Chabad place, because the Rabbi there is a Meshichist. He won’t say the Rebbe died – he refers to “the day the Rebbe hid himself from us”. He says yechi after every davening.
I won’t go there either, and if it came to it, I wouldn’t count him towards a minyan.
It’s caused me problems – a good friend of mine made a bar mitzvah there, and I had to apologize to him and explain why I wouldn’t be able to attend. Thankfully the weekday event was somewhere else!Sechel, I know that, I saw the site. You skipped a big part of it.
RightJew: you’re 100% correct. The Lubavitch people who believe the Rebbe is still Mashiach are apikorsim. They’re closer to Christianity than to Judaism.
Sechel, you left out a very important part of the story – the fact that Ashkenazi ignored the directions he was given. He was instructed to disperse the funds to yeshiva guys but specifically to exclude Chabad students. He ignored it, and gave money to them.
In the end, the money he was owed was as a salary, which he used to repay the money that he wrongfully gave to the Chabad students.Gimmel Tammuz is the date that proved conclusively that the Rebbe couldn’t be Mashiach.
Too bad there are some people out there without any sechel who still think otherwise…Quare_root – maybe because most shuls don’t do it regularly? My shul does it 4 days per year – 2 for Rosh Hashanah, then Yom Kippur and Simchas Torah. They usually don’t take too long. Simchas Torah is usually the longest, and it’s done between Mincha and Maariv, so it’s not like it makes davening end later. It’s also recognized that the auctions help our shul meet its annual budget, so people don’t mind it.