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YYA: If there are, they don’t publicize it. I highly doubt there are any, because as I said earlier, Chassidus as the Besht taught it is long gone. It wasn’t accepted by the Rabbonim at the time, and it changed significantly before it became accepted.
Joe, I don’t bother engaging much with you anymore, as it’s pointless to engage with a troll. However, in this case I must publicize the circumstances in the case you’re referring to.
R’ Schachter shlita withdrew from a letter asking for the release of a Jewish prisoner, it’s true. Who is this prisoner? A man who was masquerading as a therapist, although he had no training in this area, and no certification. He used his position to horribly abuse numerous young girls. He was rightly sentenced to an extremely long prison sentence, which he is now appealing. Nobody should be advocating for his release – he has shown no remorse for his actions whatsoever, and would likely be a threat to continue abusing young girls. He should rot in prison.R’ Yisroel Loebel, who was a Rav at the time Chassidus was founded, wrote that he had corresponded with the Rav of Medzhybizh regarding the Besht. The Rav decided to farher the Besht, and see if he actually was a talmud chacham. He wrote to R’ Loebel that he found the Besht was “an empty cistern, without a drop of learning in him.”
R’ Dovid Makov, another Rav at that time, wrote that the Besht had a thirst for power, but because he lacked Torah knowledge, he had to invent a new path for himself to attract followers.
R’ Chaim Volozhin reportedly said that the Besht purposely claimed to be a tzaddik, and not a talmud chacham. He compared it to a child who doesn’t want to go to school. He said, if a child claims to have a headache and a fever, the mother can feel the child’s head and determine if he really has a fever or not. But if a child claims to have a stomachache, there’s nothing the mother can do to check that, and the child gets to stay home. So too, someone claiming to be a talmud chacham can be tested, to see if it’s a legitimate claim. But claiming to be a tzaddik is something that can’t be verified. He said that the Besht claimed to be a tzaddik because it would have been obvious that he was an ignoramus.yedl: I didn’t say Chassidus doesn’t exist today. I said Chassidus as the Besht practiced it is long gone. You mentioned davening Nusach Sfard – the Besht actually didn’t daven that Nusach. He davened Nusach Ari. The shul he davened in used Nusach Ashkenaz. He did not have a mesorah to switch his nusach, and made the decision on his own. Nusach Sfard didn’t even come about until well after the Besht died.
You say that Rebbes had “Aliyas neshama” by following his practices – how did they know this? Because they got a warm fuzzy feeling inside when they followed his teachings? We don’t really know when we are getting an aliyas neshama. We simply follow the Torah, and assume that by doing so, we are elevating ourselves.
I hope you don’t mind if I respond to the questions you posed to somejew.
1. The Besht definitely made a major transformation. He removed the emphasis on learning Torah, and switched it to D’veykus and Tefillah. He basically taught that learning Torah was no longer the best method to connect with Hashem.
2. As I just said, he removed the primacy of Torah. He also came up with his ideas of the Tzaddik, which the Gra firmly opposed – one reason was he felt that it would lead to viewing the Tzaddik/Rebbe as more than human, and would be considered avodah zarah. Given what we see in Chabad and Breslov, I’d say the Gra was definitely correct. Other chassidish sects also view their Rebbe as more than human, although not to the level that Chabad or Breslov do.
3. Absolutely. Chassidim still focus more on Tefillah and D’veykus than on learning Torah. They also worship their Rebbes – sadly, this has crept into the yeshivish world, where the influence of how Rebbes are viewed has now extended to Rabbonim as well – look at how people line up to get brachos from them! My wife’s grandmother a”h, who lived in Bnei Brak, once told me how much it bothered her. She told me, “You know, I used to go to the Kanievsky home regularly – when I had a question, if I mistakenly put a milchig spoon into a fleishig pot, and I needed to know what to do! Or if I wasn’t sure if the chicken was kosher (it was back in the days when you took a live chicken to a shochet, and then cleaned it yourself), I’d ask the Rav about it! But now, people line up down the block to get brachos – and I can’t ask him what the halacha is regarding my spoon!” Her son, my wife’s uncle, added to that, “And if R’ Chaim would hear that the Rebbetzin was outside and needed to ask a shailah, he’d tell everyone to move aside and let her in!”Chassidus was tempered by the litvish Rabbonim who opposed it – they scaled back many of the radical things that the Besht taught, and moved back into the mainstream. That’s why they ended up being accepted. They also influenced the litvish world with some of their own things – it’s hard to turn away things that really make people feel good, and give that warm fuzzy feeling.
I’ll just share one thing my daughter discussed with one of her teachers, in the Beis Yaakov she attends. This teacher is chassidish, and my daughter has a lot of questions about it. She asked about the radical changes that the Besht instituted. The teacher replied, “The Besht’s teachings were definitely a shas hadchak! The peasants in Eastern Europe were illiterate, and couldn’t learn. They faced horrible antisemitism, and were moving away from being frum Jews. The Besht came up with a way for them to connect to Hashem that worked for them, and kept them being shomer Torah u’mitzvos. Was it ideal? Absolutely not. But it was a shas hadchak, and it worked for those people. But for Jews who were frum, who were learning Torah at the time, it definitely wasn’t the right derech.”Yaakov Yosef: The last 3 lines of my post aren’t an endorsement of Chassidus. This concept existed long before Chassidus. The difference is that Chassidus focuses on the feeling, and ignores the proper method of the actions. Traditional Judaism recognizes that feeling is important, but you still need to work on getting the actions done properly.
Other issues with Chassidus include the deification of Rebbes, as well as the role of the Rebbe (or Tzaddik, as the Besht referred to them). The Besht taught that the Tzaddik needed to lower himself down into the filth in order to bring his followers up – and that individuals are incapable of rising without the help of the Tzaddik. He also taught that the Tzaddik was born into his role, and it wasn’t something that one gets to on their own through hard work. To contrast, R’ Chaim Shmulevitz zt”l once asked, why don’t we stand up when a pregnant woman walks into a room? We’re told that a baby, before birth, is taught the entire Torah by a malach, so why don’t we stand up out of respect for the baby? He answered that there was no effort put in when it came to learning the Torah by the baby, so it’s not deserving of respect. If a Rebbe is born into his role, without a yetzer harah, then why is he deserving of any respect? Being “great” when you don’t have a yetzer harah is not praiseworthy at all.Chassidus as the Besht taught it doesn’t really exist today. It’s long gone.
The Gra held that chassidus was incompatible with Judaism, and he fought strongly against it.
The Besht definitely instituted new teachings. He claimed that he went up to Shamayim, and that Achiya haShiloni taught him these new things. But we have a rule, “Torah lo baShamayim he”, so even if this was true, we shouldn’t be following those teachings.So what exists today? Something I like to call “feel good Judaism”. People are all about getting the warm fuzzy feeling that comes with doing something you enjoy.
For example – having dancing while davening Kabbalas Shabbos. Never mind that it states pretty clearly that dancing is assur on Shabbos!
Davening after zman Krias Shema – I find that most chassidish shuls make no effort at all to make the zman.Koifer: the thought that Hashem wants “my heart more than my perfection” is not modern thinking, but it is also not chassidus. It’s mentioned in Nach – I believe once was the Haftorah a few weeks ago. Hashem said that people brought korbanos, without understanding the point behind them, and said they weren’t desirable at all – that the meaning behind it is more important.
That doesn’t mean that the actions aren’t important at all. They obviously are. If the Torah says to do something, we do it as best we can. But it’s better to do it imperfectly with the proper feeling than to do it perfectly with no feeling at all.Ex-CTLawyer: There are some municipalities that allow non-citizens to vote in local elections. They don’t differentiate between legal and illegal immigrants.
In San Francisco, the local government allows illegals to vote, but they did caution people that by registering, they may be giving ICE their information, and could end up getting caught because of it.Joe, for Eretz Yisrael, the Torah supports a monarchy which is verified by a Navi. Shmuel appointed both Shaul and Dovid. When Mashiach comes, Eliyahu will verify who the Melech is.
For other nations, we would go by the Noachide laws, which state that a fair system of laws must be set up. I’d say that Democracy qualifies for this. So yes, Judaism, does endorse Democracy, as it falls under the Noachide law of Dinim.nisht, Joe has posted multiple times that he is a strong supporter of Neturei Karta. Based on that, I’d say it’s safe to say he supports Mamdani as well.
But then again, he also has a history of lying, so he knows if he really supports them, or is just trolling?Joe, I don’t know what your issue is. Don’t you support Mamdani? Isn’t he like your heroes in Neturei Karta, opposing Israel?
Joe, how would you know what I feel? You have absolutely no idea.
You are the worst type of Rasha.
I will continue to daven for you, three times each day.Non-Jews also recognize the greatness of the Jewish community.
I once had a few days of work meetings that were out of town, which ended on a Friday. As I couldn’t fly home on Friday afternoon, I reached out to the Jewish community where the meetings were. One coworker told me that she knew I’d manage, because “Jews help each other, you’re all one big family.” Another co-worker was amazed that I was willing to stay by a stranger that I didn’t know, and that someone would be willing to host a stranger! I explained that Jews aren’t strangers – we’re family.
I also had a time where I was downsized from a job, and my boss (who was also laid off) said to me, “you’ll be fine – I’m sure you have a Jewish network, and you all look out for each other! Someone in your community will help you find a job! I’m more worried about myself – I don’t have that kind of network, so I have to search on my own!”Joe, you wrote “any real or perceived slights or misunderstanding or whatever anyone may have been hurt from by me.”
So when you said “ANY” and “ANYONE” you were lying?Joseph, as I’ve written in past years, the main part of teshuva is accepting the wrong you did, and committing to changing your behavior. Because you’ve shown zero remorse for the terrible things you’ve written, and the people you’ve insulted, and there is no reason to believe that you will be changing your behavior, I do not forgive you.
An eruv is not a kulah from the 1960s. It goes much further back – there are Gemaras that discuss it.
Eruvin 68a brings a story where Abaye was asked why there is no eruv in his town. Many meforshim (Birkei Yosef, Chasam Sofer, Avnei Nezer, and R’ Moshe Feinstein) use this Gemara as proof that there is actually an obligation for a Rav to make an eruv where it is halachically permissible to do so.
I don’t think people today treat them with no awareness.
Where I live, yes, I use the eruv. Do I trust the eruv? Considering that it’s not a person, no. But I do trust the Rabbonim who oversee it!
I don’t personally check the eruv. The local Rabbonim check it every week, and I rely on them.
I’m not sure what chumros of the past you refer to when asking if they were discarded, so I can’t really say.
To say that R’ Moshe was hesitant or opposed to “many” of the eruvin… I’m not sure what you refer to. Do you mean in places like Brooklyn or Manhattan? That is well known, because he felt it was not halachically permissible to make an eruv there. In places where it was permissible, he held (as I wrote above), that it was an obligation to make one. Obviously, it needed a knowledgeable Rav to oversee it, to ensure it was done correctly. But he wasn’t opposed to the idea of an Eruv.
I’ve been told that in Elizabeth, NJ, R’ Pinchas Teitz zt”l built an eruv, but was nervous that people would forget the halachos of carrying on Shabbos. Therefore, one week each year, the eruv was taken down. It was usually done the week after Parshas Zachor – since everyone came to shul to hear Zachor, he’d be able to announce to the entire community that the following week, nobody should carry, as the Eruv would be down.Small One, what about my response to you – do you have nothing to say? I’ll copy/paste it again:
He claimed “It is Zionism that bothers the gentiles, not Judaism.”
Maybe he just chooses to ignore the fact that it says “Halacha B’yaduh Sh’Eysav Sone L’Yaakov”somejewiknow: you said: “I say zionism is bad because it rejects fundamentals of Yiddishkeit: moshiach, schar v’oesh, and the definition of “Klal Yisroel”.”
Please elaborate. How does Zionism reject these things? I am a Zionist. I most definitely believe in Mashiach. I believe in schar v’onesh. I define Klal Yisroel as including all Jews, with Jews defined by Halacha, through matrilineal descent.
qwerty: absolutely people insult the Lubavitcher. We’re in good company – R’ Shach zt”l, who was the gadol hador. He compared the Lubavitcher to Shabtai Zvi, called him a Mashiach sheker, and also referred to him as “the madman who sits in New York and drives the whole world crazy”.
Hakatan showed his ignorance – or maybe apikorsis – earlier. He claimed “It is Zionism that bothers the gentiles, not Judaism.”
Maybe he just chooses to ignore the fact that it says “Halacha B’yaduh Sh’Eysav Sone L’Yaakov”Small One, look at facts. Zionists brought tens of thousands of Jews out of Europe. You know who actually caused deaths? Yoel Teitelbaum. He had the opportunity to save his followers – the Zionists came and offered to get them all out. He refused, and said it was better to die than to be saved by Zionists. Yet his ruling didn’t apply to himself – he snuck out at night, abandoning his community, to go with the ZIONISTS, and was saved. Almost his entire community was killed.
So don’t spout lies. SR had to continue to oppose Zionism even after the establishment of the State, because if he didn’t, then he was admitting to being a murderer. Only by continuing to oppose it could he maintain the fiction that it was preferable to die than to be saved by Zionists – as long as you weren’t Yoel Teitelbaum, of course.R’ Chaim Vital wrote in the introduction to Etz Chaim that the oaths only lasted for 1,000 years. That time is long past, so they’re not in effect anymore.
R’ Meir Simcha, in a letter to the Keren Hayesod, said that the oaths are only aggada, and even if they were halachically binding, the Balfour Declaration removed any issues.
R’ Shlomo Kluger held that since the other nations persecuted the Jews unjustly, the oaths on the Jewish nation are removed. He quoted the Shulchan Aruch that says that if 2 people take an oath and one breaks it, the other one is not obligated in it any more.So there you have the 3 opinions that the oaths aren’t in effect anymore, and therefore Zionism doesn’t break them.
Square_Root, if you’re going to copy my posts word for word, please at least give me credit.
There were some major Rabbonim who held that the oaths are NOT in force anymore. Notably, R’ Chaim Vital, R’ Meir Simcha of Dvinsk and R’ Shlomo Kluger.
Additionally, even if they are in force, there were many Rabbonim who held that they weren’t violated – since the UN voted to establish the state, it wasn’t done via force. Also, the oath not to go up in large numbers requires more than half the Jews in the world – this is the opinion of the Shittah Mekubetzes, the Maharal, and R’ Yonasan Eybshitz. The Torah Temimah held that it only refers to when people are forced to move to Eretz Yisrael, not when they do so voluntarily.
So don’t claim that all Rabbonim hold that they’re in effect, and that Israel violates them.The Rambam, if I recall correctly, is in the introduction to the second chelek of Moreh Nevuchim. The Yerushalmi is at the beginning of Horayos. I’m not sure where the Riva is – I saw it quoted in a few places, but it didn’t say exactly where it’s from. It does say it’s in response to Rashi’s quoting the Sifrei, so maybe look on that posuk?
The Ramban is on Devarim 17, and while he does say we need to listen even if it’s wrong, he qualifies that this is only for the Sanhedrin.If only we’d already discussed this before… oh wait, we have! Over and over! And you just bring it up again because the day after Tisha b’Av, you go ahead and promote more hatred! What a rasha you are.
That’s because he is no longer with the RCA. Mainstream Modern Orthodox doesn’t view him as Orthodox anymore. He’s recognized as Conservative or worse, so nobody cares what he says or does.
I posted this a few times already, posting it again:
The Riva says the left/right mentioned in the pasuk refers to Rabbonim telling us not to do a mitzvah such as Shofar on Shabbos, or Arba Minim on Shabbos. It only refers to a mitzvah that they are telling us NOT to do.The Yerushalmi says in Horios that the pasuk means only if they say right is right and left is left. If they say otherwise, you do not listen.
There are many shitos against Rashi. Indeed, both Rambam and Ramban do not pasken like Rashi in this regard. There is a Sifre which Rashi bases it on, but again, many question the Sifre, and there are Gemoros in both bavli and Yerushalmi that say otherwise. R’ Ovadia Yosef reconciles the two views as I mentioned above – you have to confront the Rav if you think he erred. Until you confront him, you do not listen. The Yad HaMelech states that if you listen when you think he erred just because you think you have to listen, you are required to bring a korbon chatas. Only after confronting the Rav with the opposing view, and he stands by what he said, are you required to listen.
My daughter just got a Shas. It’s a small one, the pocket size. She goes to school in a Beis Yaakov, and they do not learn Gemara there. She said that when she learn the meforshim on Tanach, they often quote a Gemara – now she can look it up if she wants to.
somejew, you did not post any such source. It was said about one person. He never said the word Zionist. In fact, it doesn’t even say if it was said in jest or not – and it doesn’t say if he led the benching or not. If he really paskened that way, it would have been written in one of his seforim. Many poskim have said that people shouldn’t listen to what was given as a psak to someone else – the only piskei halacha meant for the public are the ones written as a teshuva meant for the public, or in a sefer.
As for the small one’s posts, he just keeps on repeating himself. It won’t make anyone agree with him. Yes, many early Zionists did drive people away from Judaism. But that doesn’t mean that Zionism as a whole is bad. Those people were bad. There were also many Zionists who brought people closer to the Torah. Yes, there was access to the kotel long before Israel was founded. But Jewish immigration was not allowed except for in very small numbers. The learning that exists today in Israel would not exist without the state.
You really need to differentiate between secular Zionism and religious Zionism.
Small one, now is where you quote a few people who opposed Zionism in any form, then go on about shmad and how terrible Israel is. Actually, now you don’t have to write it – I just did it for you.Joe: yes, I am. I haven’t yet heard a definitive argument that would convince me, but I am open to hearing it. Even those I disagree with, I can at least respect their opinion, and accept that it’s different than mine.
I heard from R’ Bender about a time that the Satmar Rebbe wrote out a large check to support an Israeli organization, while telling the person from the organization that it was wrong to have these organizations at all. He recognized hat while he thought it was wrong, there is still good there, and was willing to give his own money towards it. HaKatan would just say it’s supporting idolatry and kick the person out.HaKatan,
You’re correct, it was a non-answer (although I don’t think it was pathetic).
It was a non-answer, because as I said, its pointless to engage with you. This isn’t a discussion. In a discussion, people are open to hearing opposing viewpoints. You are not. You are simply full of hatred, and keep repeating the refrain that Zionism is idolatry. You have nothing to back up this claim, you just repeating it.
Since you don’t really care what my opinions are, and will disagree with them even if they make perfect sense, there is no point engaging with you. So I’m done with it.AAQ: Don’t bother engaging with Hakatan. It’s pointless. He is filled with hatred, and it blinds him from actually listening to opposing viewpoints.
He belongs to the group that the Netziv said was responsible for the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash. Just have pity for him.AAQ: Don’t bother engaging with Hakatan. It’s pointless. He is filled with hatred, and it blinds him from actually listening to opposing viewpoints.
He belongs to the group that the Netziv said was responsible for the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash. Just have pity for him.YYA: I agree. Joseph is the ultimate troll.
There are others, such as Hakatan, who are real haters. It’s sad.I read from R’ Schachter that galus refers to a lack of gilui Shechinah. Even in Eretz Yisrael now, there is no gilui Shechinah, so yes, Jews there are still in galus. When Mashiach comes, and the Shechinah comes out of hiding, the galus will be over.
There is a great article written by R’ Jachter on the topic, where he goes through both sides of the issue:
https://www.koltorah.org/halachah/are-women-permitted-to-study-gemara-by-rabbi-howard-jachterwtsp: why is it hypocritical?
Sara Schenirer learned Gemara daily.
There was a thread about this a while back, where a lot of opinions on both sides were posted. Joseph, as usual, is full of garbage, and is ignoring anything that doesn’t match his own twisted views.wtsp: wrong. I can support the State of Israel, without supporting the apikorsis of many of its founders. I can want the state to exist because it is OUR land, which Hashem promised to us – and it has nothing to do with proving anything to the world.
You are arguing about semantics. You claim that the beliefs define the label. I disagree. I think that the state of Israel is the incarnation of the state until Mashiach comes – and only then will it truly be Eretz Yisrael. That doesn’t mean I can’t support it until that day.wtsp: so since we have to give thanks to Hashem for the victories that He gave to the Israeli army, are you in favor of saying Hallel on Yom Ha’atzmaut and Yom Yerushalaim, as many religious Zionists do? That is giving thanks to Hashem, and recognizing that the victories came from Him.
Small One, you are not convincing anyone. You, just like the Satmar Rebbe, are blinded by your hatred for Israel. You are not thinking rationally. The Satmar Rebbe was so blinded by hatred that it caused the deaths of almost all his followers in Europe. This is what you want to glorify?
You can keep posting your twisted views here, but as I said, you’re not convincing anyone. If I had to guess, most people here just view you as a pathetic hypocrite.First off, not all the Israeli agree with the OP. There were so many videos shared of IDF soldiers davening, learning, and more. They 100% believe that we need Hashem’s help in all this.
But now I think of some of the posts from one of the leading haters on this site, HaKatan, He loves to claim that there was nothing miraculous about Israel’s victory in the Six Day War, and it shouldn’t be celebrated. Clearly, he’s the one who doesn’t believe in Hashem’s involvement. He believes that it’s all about the natural strength, and that’s what should be recognized.
What an apikores.So they’re just using the “No true Scotsman” argument.
Claim RIETS hasn’t produced any Gedolim. When some are named, claim, “Well, they’re from RIETS, so they can’t be a Gadol!”Joe, now you’re just flat-out lying.
R’ Hershel Schachter, R’ Mordechai Willig, and R’ Aharon Soloveichik are a few that immediately come to mind.HaKatan: Ben Hecht didn’t read the history when he wrote Perfidy. Researchers have shown that numerous things he claimed as facts were flat out untrue. As chiefshmerel wrote, Hecht had an agenda, to attack Ben Gurion, and he did so by going through Kastner.
You also completely ignored my other post, and just kept on attacking Zionists as a whole, without differentiating between the secular and the religious. They are not the same. Get that through your thick skull.
As for the Six Day War, the fact that R’ Yaakov said Hallel Hagadol means that he recognized it as a good thing. All the other excuses (whether it’s Satmar claiming it was from the Satan, or claiming that the CIA knew it would happen) don’t matter. Besides, even if the CIA claimed it would happen – do you deny that everything is Ratzon Hashem?
People say that R’ Kook zt”l was blinded by his love for Eretz Yisrael, and made incorrect choices because of it. I say that the Satmar Rav was blinded by his hatred, and made bad choices because of it.
HaKatan, 2 points.
First, you just keep repeating yourself like a broken record, without listening to what others say. Nobody here is arguing that the secular Zionists were not good people. Personally, I agree with you about that part. Did they cause the Holocaust? I doubt it. Did they possibly contribute to many deaths? Yes. That doesn’t mean that Zionism as a whole, especially religious Zionism, is wrong.Second, if you’re going to talk about causing deaths, then let’s discuss the Satmar Rebbe, R’ Yoelish. He had a chance to save his kehilla in Europe – the Zionists offered to get them out, and bring them to Eretz Yisrael. He refused to allow them to speak in the town, saying that it was better to die than to collaborate with Zionists. Yet, he snuck out, at night, without telling anyone, to be saved by a Zionist. He abandoned his followers. Almost all of them were killed by the Nazis. He did exactly what he told his followers not to do, and did so in a cowardly fashion, sneaking out when nobody would see him.
Written by R’ Dovid Landesman, who was learning in Torah Vadaas during the Six Day War:
And then we heard the broadcast that will remain in my mind forever. Michael Elkins, the correspondent for the BBC and Newsweek, imbedded with the paratroopers led by Motta Gur, announced: “the IDF has captured the Temple Mount.” We heard his live broadcast of Rav Goren blowing shofar, of Motta Gur’s static filled message to his command post, “haKotel b’yadeunu, haKotel b’yadenu.” We heard singing, yes singing which turned out to be the soldiers themselves. Elkins described that most incredible and improbable scene: paratroopers, in the midst of battle, rushing toward a wall of stone, oblivious to the dangers around them, to the snipers and enemy soldiers, spontaneously breaking into song and dance. Elkins began to cry on the air, and we listening in Flatbush cried with him.
For as long as I live, I will never forget the expression on Rav Yaakov’s face or the sparkle in Rav Schorr’s eyes. It was as if the burden of history had been lifted from them. Rav Yaakov ran into the beis midrash and gave a bang on the amud. There was immediate silence and he said “shehechiyanu” – I do not remember if it was with shem and malchus. He then began to recite Hodu with tears streaming down his cheeks.
Let’s also not forget that during the Six Day War, when the IDF took control of the Har Habayis, R’ Yaakov Kaminetsky said Hallel in Torah Vadaas.