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I do agree with some of the points you are making. I think tznius has continued to be an increasing challenge for many, and the desire to have a head covering which is indistinguishable from natural hair is not a good thing.
I also agree that someone having been mattir fake looking wigs cannot be used to be prove that real looking wigs are muttar.
What I disagree with is the assertion that it is impossible to be mattir these.
First of all, many can tell the difference, so even if you hold that a real looking wig is assur, where do you draw the line? The previous shaitels also looked quite real. Every few years you hear new kol korehs that the shaitels are worse than previous ones (and it’s true, as they keep trying to make them look more real). But if you held the shaitels from 5 years ago were ok, or today’s non lace, then you are saying that very realistic is still not assur unless it’s 100% real looking. Well, these still aren’t. Many people say they can tell. So is the line 99%? 95%?
Secondly, as I have pointed out, some hold that even if a shaitel is 100% real looking, as long as her actual hair isn’t showing, it’s muttar. So no matter how much you say that these are more real looking, it won’t make it assur according to that opinion.
no contemporary poisek would matter lace wigs,
Simply false
I’m not getting involved in the old machloikes.
You did.
The fact is the wigs of decades ago were very noticable that hair hair was not נפש חיונית
What the ישכיל עבדי is saying is that it has nothing to do with how it looks. So you can repeat your assertions that these look different than the older wigs, but you are missing the point of those who are mattir. They hold that as long as the actual hair is covered, it’s muttar even if it looks real.
A person can be completely untzniusdik even if technically any single aspect of their attire isn’t a direct written violation.
Okay, but you are saying they are technically assur.
And again, I don’t think you can compare uncovered hair with other aspects of tznius.
Philosopher, Yasher Koach. You’re able to express the point much better than myself.
True. You never would have thought to prove that lace shaitels are assur because a frum man was wearing a nose ring. 🙄
The fact is immodesty today is our of control. The length of hair worn by girls today, never mind married women with wigs, was inconvenienable just a few decades ago. I am shocked when I see so many frum women not wearing stockings and short skirts and flip flops…it’s so gross. My husband told me he saw a frum man wearing a nose ring, I was like ok, these will be the new male versions who go together with the frum women wearing no tights and flip flops. After all, there’s nothing in halacha that say a man can’t wear nose rings! Why even when they built the mishkan the men donated their nose rings…It’s a himmel geshrei how low we have fallen. Every coarse, low-class mode of dress is excused that “it’s ok according to halacha”. Lace wigs is just one more proof of the dive tznius has taken in many communities.
Okay. That has nothing to do with whether lace shaitels are assur.
In addition, the original source in Gemara talks about peah nochri that women wore, however Jewish girls and women wore additional head coverings as well so we are not talking about women walking in the streets, and likely not in their homes either, with only peah nochri covering their hair. Peah nochri was used as WEAVE together with a woman’s own hair, NOT as WIGS to cover the entire head, to make thin hair look fuller.
Now you are getting involved in the old machlokes acharonim. So you’re saying all shaitels are assur. Fine, if you want to be machmir. But the topic is lace shaitels.
but the ruling is on the hair that was sewn on the wigs that were out at the time of the ruling, not the wigs of today with their fitted caps and certainly not with the lace as the hair looks absolutely looks like it’s growing out of the scalp because then you defeated the point that “it is not attached to the head”.
It doesn’t matter what it looks like. It does not have נפש חיונית.
The לשון of the ישכיל עבדי:
ונראה בטעם הדבר, דהוא משום דקים להו לרבנן, דאין היצה”ר שולט אלא בדבר הדבוק בגוף האשה עצמה, היינו הדבר הדבוק בגוף הערוה עצמה, דאין שליטה להיצה”ר אלא בדבר שיש לו נפש חיונית, לא בדבר שאין לו נפש חיונית, ולכן בנתלש מגוף האשה, דניטל ממנו נפש החיונית, הרי פקע ממנו אותה הערוה שהיתה עליו בזמן שהיה דבוק בגוף האשה, דהרי הוא כפגר מת שאין להיצה”ר שליטה בו, ולכן התירו להסתכל בו, דכיון שאין להיצה”ר שליטה בו, הרי לא יבוא לידי הרהור
See שו”ת ישכיל עבדי ח”ז חאה”ע סי’ טז who explains that a פאה נכרית is okay according to the רמ”א, מג”א and לבוש, because it is no longer attached to the person and therefore the יצה”ר is not שולט, and that as long as it is customary to wear shaitels, there is no מראית עין.
So the “mares eyin” of years ago (which was in reality not mares eyin), is absolutely not relevent to the wigs of today.
Obviously today’s wigs are more realistic looking, but R’ Moshe addresses a wig which looks real so that people can’t tell.
Still, he holds it’s muttar; the fact that today’s look even more real in comparison doesn’t change the halacha.
Even though people in those days may have been fooled by those wigs, since we are used to more realistic looking wigs, they wouldn’t fool us because we are used to seeing more realistic looking wigs and our eyes are longer tricked.
The same thing will happen with these shaitels too; we will get used to them and they will no longer fool people I to thinking they’re real (many can already tell the difference) until the next innovation comes along and the poskim will undoubtedly have the same debate again, with the osrim saying that even if you held the lace are okay, theses new ones are definitely assur.
A married woman with the appearance of being bareheaded is just as inherently untznius as that other appearance.
It’s not inherent, it’s subjective.
DY, why can you not name any contemporary (choshuve) poskim that specifically discuss lace, and are mattir?
R Dovid isn’t longer alive to confirm, but you can ask his talmidim.
The other didn’t say it publicly AFAIK.
But Rav Moshe in no shape, manner or form implied, indicated or stated that a wig that doesn’t look like the person is wearing any head covering, and rather appears bareheaded, is permissible.
That’s simply false. If it didn’t look like she wasn’t covering her hair, he wouldn’t need to address the maris ayin issue because it would have been moot.
how would their logic to be mattir give them any room to assur a full body dress/suit
Silly comparison, because that appearance is inherently untznius, whereas uncovered hair isn’t (e.g. unmarried women are perfectly tznius with uncovered hair).
DY, lace wigs didn’t exist during Rav Moshe’s lifetime and, thus, he didn’t opine on them.
That’s irrelevant. The points the osrim bring are all addressed by R’ Moshe.
DY, the hair is covered but see through what about hirhur like the mechitza with holes or too low?
I’m not referring to see through.
I’m referring to lined, where none of the actual hair or scalp is visible, but the kol korehs assered those as well.
There is good reason to think they may be assur, either because if it looks like her hair, it is the same lack of tznius as if her actual hair was visible, or because of maris ayin
So those who asser aren’t being illogical per se, but the fact is that R Moshe doesn’t asser even where it looks real.
5. Will last for a lifetime or at least 5 years.
I’m with you until that. We have no idea how long it lasts in terms of being somewhat effective, but we do already see it waning.
With COVID, we are talking at least 10%, if not 50% depending on age and lifestyle.
Anyone who wants to live a somewhat normal life, not locked into their homes, should expect to get Covid.
doing shiduchim without the mask
When you make dumb comments like this, don’t expect any intelligent comment you may occasionally chance upon to be taken seriously.
then masks will not help much, short of N95s
Show me evidence that cloth masks do anything besides make you look silly under any circumstances.
Can we pin-point what is the source?
First show me evidence that frum people are more antivax than the general population them we can discuss your “theories”.
DaasYochid: There’s an outstanding question for you from Philosopher.
R Moshe isn’t good enough for you?
As far as the OP is concerned, I’ll humor him and go with the assumption that he’s not trolling, and answer the question.
If someone takes the vaccine because he accepts the consensus of medical opinion that there is no negative affect on fertility, and it turns out that there is, he is an oines and was not m’vatel p’ru ur’vu.
I believe it was the CDC that said only 6% of covid deaths had no co-morbidities.
Is it okay if people with co-morbidities die?
Are you absolutely sure that the risks from the vaccine, both that has already been shown, and possible longer term effects, is lower than the risk of being one of the 1050? My doctor isn’t.
Absolutely sure is the wrong metric. If I am sick with pneumonia I might get into a car accident on the way to the doctor, but it’s still wise to go.
It is highly likely that the risk of people getting harmed from the vaccine is lower than getting harmed from Covid (even those who were once infected).
So what? If the original risk is almost “non-existent”, why take another risk — even if it is “smaller”?
Because there’s a bigger risk in not taking it.
simple-if your healthy and young, the chance of dying from covid is almost non-existent
And the chance of being harmed by the vaccine is even smaller.
That is a total lie. Whether it’s a לאו or an עשה or a דרבנן (דת יהודית) might have various opinions, but it’s a real הלכה.
See אג”מ אהע”ז ח”ב י”ב who says it’s an עשה but says it’s to be צנועה.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=918&pgnum=325
(It’s pretty clear to many, btw, that he would be mattir these shaitels as long as the hair is covered, even if they look realistic.)
I answered this already:
Yeah but you’re pro vax.
Question for my fellow conspiracy theory people: the liberal government is pushing vaccines which are poison, and dismissing HCQ and Ivermectin which actually work. So the liberals are taking the vaccines, and the right wingers are taking Ivermectin and HCQ.
We know the government is evil and genocidal, but why are they so stupid to kill off their own people and have the right wingers survive??
while let’s say Ivermectin, would only cost a few Dollars per a patient.
And cause 85% male infertility.
(Yeah, I know that was debunked, but so was the pro Ivermectin study. So make up your mind, do you believe in debunked studies or not?)
Actually, Bill Gates is much smarter than you. He knew you would think that repurposed deworming drugs would be your choice, so he’s been putting sterilizing agents and tracking chips in Ivermectin for many years now. Don’t fall for it.