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If the vaccine was so effective we wouldn’t be up to 4 boosters by now. They even admitted that it isn’t as effective especially against variants.
I’m not sure why it’s so difficult to understand that something can be effective, but not last forever. Did you eat yesterday? Then why are you hungry today?
On the other hand if the natural antibodies weren’t enough to protect individuals, you would have seen a rise in cases to the likes of the beginning of the pandemic.
Yes, naturally immune, but also many vaccinated people.
For those who had Covid, whether by act of G-d or by negligence, it is not enough to rely on that alone to conclude that you are not in danger or not a danger to others.
The evidence shows that previous Covid infection offers more protection than vaccination. So unless you involve politics, there’s no reason to exclude previously infected people over vaccinated people.
but making it such that the woman herself appears to be shaitel-less, seems to involve several issues: maaris ayin
Rav Moshe holds there’s no maris ayin. The Maharil Diskin holds there is.
and the inability to distinguish one’s self as a married woman
While I agree that it’s a bad idea for this reason (Hamodia had a humorous fictional piece in the Succos Stories supplement about a married lady who was set up on a shidduch meeting by someone who thought she was single because of her lace shaitel), do you have a source which would make it actually assur?
and I’m sure there’s more.
Please share, because I haven’t yet heard a compelling reason to think it’s actually assur l’chol hadeios.
You should address your criticism of these Gedolei Poskim to them, rather than to the public.
It’s not a criticism of them, it’s a rebuttal to you.
Careful with “anyone”.
Vilna Gaon with his lifestyle would not get it. Rashbi would not have even noticed.🙄
After it was analyzed by other scientists it was retracted because the conclusion was obviously inaccurate and blatantly false.
They redid the numbers and it was still in the expected range.
The authors reply: Sun appropriately raises questions about the proportion of women reporting spontaneous abortion in our recent article. We agree that the denominator used in that proportion — 827 completed pregnancies — is not an appropriate denominator for the calculation of a risk estimate or rate.
The number of spontaneous abortions (104) reflects data reported by the participants as of March 30, 2021, during telephone follow-up. In this preliminary report, follow-up information was missing for the majority of pregnancies in which exposure to vaccination occurred in early pregnancy. Among the 1224 women who had been vaccinated before conception or in the first trimester, follow-up through 20 weeks of gestation had been completed for only 204 pregnancies that were known to be ongoing and for 1 pregnancy that resulted in stillbirth. Among the pregnancies that had not yet reached 20 weeks of gestation, there were 10 pregnancies with other outcomes before 20 weeks of gestation, including 8 ectopic pregnancies and 2 induced abortions. For the other 905 pregnancies, follow-up had not occurred to establish whether these pregnancies were ongoing past 20 weeks of gestation. We have amended Table 4 in our earlier publication and have clarified the text.
Subsequently, we completed telephone follow-up for the 905 pregnancies and enrolled additional persons in the v-safe pregnancy registry. To determine the cumulative risk of spontaneous abortion from 6 to less than 20 weeks of gestation, we used life-table methods to perform an updated analysis, now reported in the Journal, involving 2456 women who received at least one dose of an mRNA Covid-19 vaccine before conception or before 20 weeks of gestation.1 The estimated risks (14.1% overall and 12.8% in age-standardized analyses) are consistent with the risks of spontaneous abortion reported in the general population.1
Dana M. Meaney-Delman, M.D.
Sascha R. Ellington, Ph.D.
Tom T. Shimabukuro, M.D.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, GA
[email protected]This letter was published on September 8, 2021, at NEJM.org.
When girls are taught in BY schools that their worth is dependent on how unattractive they make themselves
They are not being taught that.
They are being taught to value their p’nimius, and to respect themselves.
Then they should have put out a kol korei that all nice shaitels from the last 20 years should be thrown out.
I don’t remember seeing an OP so thoroughly and blatantly debunked.
Any response from the OP?
How can our communities correct this untziusdik catastrophe?
Tell them to wear shaitels which cover their ankles.
So I’d like to hear who they are.
I have mentioned several.
However, lace wigs are so not corpse-like, I highly doubt he would call the long, flowing, lace wigs of today being “like a corpse”.
Again, he didn’t say anything about appearance. He said it has no נפש חיונית. Not that it doesn’t look like it has.
The shaitels in previous centuries and decades did not look real, everyone could tell they are shaitels until approximately 10-15 years ago,
The poskim who assered said they looked real.
So you agree that there’s nothing new in the last couple of years? But the poskim who are assering now didn’t asser 10-15 years ago!!
DaasYochid, I never said wigs, human or otherwise, are assur so I did not get involved in old machloikes.
You said, and I quote, “In addition, the original source in Gemara talks about peah nochri that women wore, however Jewish girls and women wore additional head coverings as well so we are not talking about women walking in the streets, and likely not in their homes either, with only peah nochri covering their hair. Peah nochri was used as WEAVE together with a woman’s own hair, NOT as WIGS to cover the entire head, to make thin hair look fuller.”
That is straight from the באר שבע, who assered פאה נכרית.
DY, do you imagine that the poskim you’re claiming would be mattir a shaitel where the length of the hair reach her ankles?
Ask them.
R Felder who assers lace shaitels says it’s not tznius to wear long shaitels where it’s not the norm, but it’s not a violation of kisui harosh. So there’s that.
R Oberlander from Monsey, although he does say there’s maris ayin (which R Moshe gives several reasons to be mattir) agrees it’s not actually erva and you can say a bracha in front of a woman wearing a lace shaitel.
R Yitzchak Berkowitz is on record as saying if the shaitels before the lace shaitels are ok, so are the lace ones. If the lace ones are assur, they should have assered shaitels a while ago.
Here’s a post of Joseph’s from 11 years ago (!) saying that “only recently” do shaitels look real.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/sheitels#post-692063
I do agree with some of the points you are making. I think tznius has continued to be an increasing challenge for many, and the desire to have a head covering which is indistinguishable from natural hair is not a good thing.
I also agree that someone having been mattir fake looking wigs cannot be used to be prove that real looking wigs are muttar.
What I disagree with is the assertion that it is impossible to be mattir these.
First of all, many can tell the difference, so even if you hold that a real looking wig is assur, where do you draw the line? The previous shaitels also looked quite real. Every few years you hear new kol korehs that the shaitels are worse than previous ones (and it’s true, as they keep trying to make them look more real). But if you held the shaitels from 5 years ago were ok, or today’s non lace, then you are saying that very realistic is still not assur unless it’s 100% real looking. Well, these still aren’t. Many people say they can tell. So is the line 99%? 95%?
Secondly, as I have pointed out, some hold that even if a shaitel is 100% real looking, as long as her actual hair isn’t showing, it’s muttar. So no matter how much you say that these are more real looking, it won’t make it assur according to that opinion.
no contemporary poisek would matter lace wigs,
Simply false
I’m not getting involved in the old machloikes.
You did.
The fact is the wigs of decades ago were very noticable that hair hair was not נפש חיונית
What the ישכיל עבדי is saying is that it has nothing to do with how it looks. So you can repeat your assertions that these look different than the older wigs, but you are missing the point of those who are mattir. They hold that as long as the actual hair is covered, it’s muttar even if it looks real.
A person can be completely untzniusdik even if technically any single aspect of their attire isn’t a direct written violation.
Okay, but you are saying they are technically assur.
And again, I don’t think you can compare uncovered hair with other aspects of tznius.
Philosopher, Yasher Koach. You’re able to express the point much better than myself.
True. You never would have thought to prove that lace shaitels are assur because a frum man was wearing a nose ring. 🙄
The fact is immodesty today is our of control. The length of hair worn by girls today, never mind married women with wigs, was inconvenienable just a few decades ago. I am shocked when I see so many frum women not wearing stockings and short skirts and flip flops…it’s so gross. My husband told me he saw a frum man wearing a nose ring, I was like ok, these will be the new male versions who go together with the frum women wearing no tights and flip flops. After all, there’s nothing in halacha that say a man can’t wear nose rings! Why even when they built the mishkan the men donated their nose rings…It’s a himmel geshrei how low we have fallen. Every coarse, low-class mode of dress is excused that “it’s ok according to halacha”. Lace wigs is just one more proof of the dive tznius has taken in many communities.
Okay. That has nothing to do with whether lace shaitels are assur.
In addition, the original source in Gemara talks about peah nochri that women wore, however Jewish girls and women wore additional head coverings as well so we are not talking about women walking in the streets, and likely not in their homes either, with only peah nochri covering their hair. Peah nochri was used as WEAVE together with a woman’s own hair, NOT as WIGS to cover the entire head, to make thin hair look fuller.
Now you are getting involved in the old machlokes acharonim. So you’re saying all shaitels are assur. Fine, if you want to be machmir. But the topic is lace shaitels.
but the ruling is on the hair that was sewn on the wigs that were out at the time of the ruling, not the wigs of today with their fitted caps and certainly not with the lace as the hair looks absolutely looks like it’s growing out of the scalp because then you defeated the point that “it is not attached to the head”.
It doesn’t matter what it looks like. It does not have נפש חיונית.
The לשון of the ישכיל עבדי:
ונראה בטעם הדבר, דהוא משום דקים להו לרבנן, דאין היצה”ר שולט אלא בדבר הדבוק בגוף האשה עצמה, היינו הדבר הדבוק בגוף הערוה עצמה, דאין שליטה להיצה”ר אלא בדבר שיש לו נפש חיונית, לא בדבר שאין לו נפש חיונית, ולכן בנתלש מגוף האשה, דניטל ממנו נפש החיונית, הרי פקע ממנו אותה הערוה שהיתה עליו בזמן שהיה דבוק בגוף האשה, דהרי הוא כפגר מת שאין להיצה”ר שליטה בו, ולכן התירו להסתכל בו, דכיון שאין להיצה”ר שליטה בו, הרי לא יבוא לידי הרהור
See שו”ת ישכיל עבדי ח”ז חאה”ע סי’ טז who explains that a פאה נכרית is okay according to the רמ”א, מג”א and לבוש, because it is no longer attached to the person and therefore the יצה”ר is not שולט, and that as long as it is customary to wear shaitels, there is no מראית עין.
So the “mares eyin” of years ago (which was in reality not mares eyin), is absolutely not relevent to the wigs of today.
Obviously today’s wigs are more realistic looking, but R’ Moshe addresses a wig which looks real so that people can’t tell.
Still, he holds it’s muttar; the fact that today’s look even more real in comparison doesn’t change the halacha.
Even though people in those days may have been fooled by those wigs, since we are used to more realistic looking wigs, they wouldn’t fool us because we are used to seeing more realistic looking wigs and our eyes are longer tricked.
The same thing will happen with these shaitels too; we will get used to them and they will no longer fool people I to thinking they’re real (many can already tell the difference) until the next innovation comes along and the poskim will undoubtedly have the same debate again, with the osrim saying that even if you held the lace are okay, theses new ones are definitely assur.
A married woman with the appearance of being bareheaded is just as inherently untznius as that other appearance.
It’s not inherent, it’s subjective.
DY, why can you not name any contemporary (choshuve) poskim that specifically discuss lace, and are mattir?
R Dovid isn’t longer alive to confirm, but you can ask his talmidim.
The other didn’t say it publicly AFAIK.
But Rav Moshe in no shape, manner or form implied, indicated or stated that a wig that doesn’t look like the person is wearing any head covering, and rather appears bareheaded, is permissible.
That’s simply false. If it didn’t look like she wasn’t covering her hair, he wouldn’t need to address the maris ayin issue because it would have been moot.
how would their logic to be mattir give them any room to assur a full body dress/suit
Silly comparison, because that appearance is inherently untznius, whereas uncovered hair isn’t (e.g. unmarried women are perfectly tznius with uncovered hair).
DY, lace wigs didn’t exist during Rav Moshe’s lifetime and, thus, he didn’t opine on them.
That’s irrelevant. The points the osrim bring are all addressed by R’ Moshe.
DY, the hair is covered but see through what about hirhur like the mechitza with holes or too low?
I’m not referring to see through.
I’m referring to lined, where none of the actual hair or scalp is visible, but the kol korehs assered those as well.
There is good reason to think they may be assur, either because if it looks like her hair, it is the same lack of tznius as if her actual hair was visible, or because of maris ayin
So those who asser aren’t being illogical per se, but the fact is that R Moshe doesn’t asser even where it looks real.
5. Will last for a lifetime or at least 5 years.
I’m with you until that. We have no idea how long it lasts in terms of being somewhat effective, but we do already see it waning.
With COVID, we are talking at least 10%, if not 50% depending on age and lifestyle.
Anyone who wants to live a somewhat normal life, not locked into their homes, should expect to get Covid.
doing shiduchim without the mask
When you make dumb comments like this, don’t expect any intelligent comment you may occasionally chance upon to be taken seriously.
then masks will not help much, short of N95s
Show me evidence that cloth masks do anything besides make you look silly under any circumstances.
Can we pin-point what is the source?
First show me evidence that frum people are more antivax than the general population them we can discuss your “theories”.
DaasYochid: There’s an outstanding question for you from Philosopher.
R Moshe isn’t good enough for you?
As far as the OP is concerned, I’ll humor him and go with the assumption that he’s not trolling, and answer the question.
If someone takes the vaccine because he accepts the consensus of medical opinion that there is no negative affect on fertility, and it turns out that there is, he is an oines and was not m’vatel p’ru ur’vu.
I believe it was the CDC that said only 6% of covid deaths had no co-morbidities.
Is it okay if people with co-morbidities die?
Are you absolutely sure that the risks from the vaccine, both that has already been shown, and possible longer term effects, is lower than the risk of being one of the 1050? My doctor isn’t.
Absolutely sure is the wrong metric. If I am sick with pneumonia I might get into a car accident on the way to the doctor, but it’s still wise to go.
It is highly likely that the risk of people getting harmed from the vaccine is lower than getting harmed from Covid (even those who were once infected).
So what? If the original risk is almost “non-existent”, why take another risk — even if it is “smaller”?
Because there’s a bigger risk in not taking it.
simple-if your healthy and young, the chance of dying from covid is almost non-existent
And the chance of being harmed by the vaccine is even smaller.
That is a total lie. Whether it’s a לאו or an עשה or a דרבנן (דת יהודית) might have various opinions, but it’s a real הלכה.
See אג”מ אהע”ז ח”ב י”ב who says it’s an עשה but says it’s to be צנועה.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=918&pgnum=325
(It’s pretty clear to many, btw, that he would be mattir these shaitels as long as the hair is covered, even if they look realistic.)