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bein_hasdorim: Chacham Ovadiah quoted Loy Tovi To’eivah El Beisecha as well.
Wolf, I would think what you did was fine, based on the sources quoted. I personally prefer the method of gesturing that the seat he’s in is fine (hard to describe in words). In another context, making an intentional misrepresentation would, I think, be wrong.
As much as many would like to deny it, exposure to secular movies is ????, not merely “not a nice thing”. I bring here a translation of ??”? ???? ???? ??? ?’ ??’ ?”? from Rav Ovadiah Yosef Shlit”a.
I wish anyone trying to fight the Yetzer Hora on this one much hatzlocha!
“…One must close his eyes when reading ??? (when in the presence of a television).
BTW, I think turning the boards on edge is to prevent warping.
According to the illustration in the assembly manual, there is an overlap.
http://www.sukkahdepot.com/English/Article.aspx?Item=88
The store might be giving out the wrong ones.
The word k’neged means opposite, not next to.
Rav Padwa, of course, is ????, I only quote him regarding the specific issue of whether the worm is considered merely a ???? or a part of the crustacean.
hello,
Did you see Rav Padwa’s ??????
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=63097
He makes the same ????? that we’re “arguing” about. His ????? is like mine, but he somehow is assuming that most of the worm’s growth is in the ?? ????. I suppose that this is consistent with his rejection of ???? ???????.
Back to ???? ??????. If you look carefully at R’ Feivel’s letter, he is not talking about the size of the filter, but the ????? of ???? ??????. I quote again – “which will pick up anything 30 microns or bigger”. The size of the filter is only relevant regarding its ability to pick up anything which is a problem – something which is 30 microns or larger, and therefore ???? ??????. Although this should be sufficient evidence of his opinion, I knew this before finding this parsha sheet, having heard his opinion from his talmidim at the time the NYC bugs-in-water “crises” erupted.
As far as the length is concerned, of course you are correct that if an object can be so thin as to be sub-visible at any length. It should also be obvious, though, that that size would be somewhat smaller than the size given for sub-visible in three dimensions. I don’t know the precise number, but I think even the thinnest human hair is visible, as well as a fine (or even superfine) merino wool fiber.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merino
My summer schedule and location is different than during the year; I don’t know for how much longer I can keep this up. I might still have some time (and web access) to respond, But in case not, I now will now wish everyone in the coffee room a happy and healthy summer, and ask anyone who I may have offended ?????.
hello,
At the end of the ??”?, he quotes the ??”? and seems to agree, or at least to acept it as consistent with his original statement.
“So now according to your understanding of the ??”? ?”? the worms are only milchig until they leave the cheese completely and become assur, then they become pareve. I’m impressed.”
First of all, thank you. Secondly, (I’m working backwards here) they would only be ???? (I wouldn’t use the word “pareve” here) if they were ???? ??.
Anyhow, the ???? in ???? to which you refer is not listing possible ?????, just the definite ones, otherwise ??? ?? ???, ?? ?????, ???”? should have been added.
hello,
re: microns. “which will pick up anything 30 microns or bigger”
If you need a 25 micron (or less) rated filter to pick up the bugs, then so be it. 30 is his shiur of N”L.
I know 14 is smaller (I’ve seen 15-20, but either way it’s smaller), but I’ve maintained that since these are longer, they are visible.
“NOONE agrees with the ??”? that with wormy cheese one must eat the worms”
Have you found anyone who disagrees? The aged cheese and wormy cheese are two separate issues, as you said, so arguing on the first does not mean arguing on the ??”?’s ??? on the second.
HIE:
I don’t mean to question that R’ Dovid said what you quoted. I just meant that he is not taking a strong stance (at least publicly) either way.
Do you know when R’ Dovid said it; before or after it became clear that the gedolim in EY did osser?
cherrybim,
I don’t have sources to prove those quotes, but I was addressing a claim which also had no sources.
The only provable source I know of regarding R’ Dovid’s opinion is from R’ Bess, who says R’ Dovid recommends to be ?????.
cherrybim,
If I’m not mistaken, I think some companies were already checking for and removing worms from fish. Not for reasons of ????, but because people like oomis would otherwise not buy their fish. A&B always claimed that their fish was worm free. I think Dagim also did.
hello,
This from the last link which I posted.
Brooklyn’s Tap Water Isn’t Kosher
According to the following email:
Subject: Important Notice 18 lyar 5764
Dear Chaver, It has been ascertained that the city water contains many bugs (Sheratzei Hamayim), and therefore one may not drink the water even though the sinks have strainers [the Water Department is aware of this, but since this does not pose a health hazard they allow it]. In order to drink the water one needs a filter which will pick up anything 30 microns or bigger. Washing dishes, doing laundry and showering are permitted without a filter. More information will be forthcoming bli neder in the coming days. Please pass this information on to others.
Rav Feivel Cohen
It’s possible that he would now agree that a less efficient filter
is okay since most of the bugs are larger, and this was based on initial findings (but I think he was thorough on all of the details before he issued the psak). Either way, I don’t think he changed his mind on the ???? aspect.
If you don’t mind checking the ?”? again, he says either aged 6 months or wormy require 6 hrs. The ??”? is qualifying the case of the wormy cheese (in that case it’s only required if the worms are still there), not arguing on the case of the aged cheese (even if there are no worms in it). Have you found anyone who argues on the case of the wormy cheese?
” Simple. When it is ????, it is a ??? ????? ?? ????. As far as the anisakis, ??”?. If it’s a ????, it’s ???? as a ??? ????. If not, it’s still a crustacean (in ???.)”
Huh?”
I guess not so simple. I’ll try again.
In any case that the worms have the ??? of a ???, they will not have the ??? of ??? or ????”? which is why neither are listed, although I think we both agree that these worms have the ??? of ????”? (although we would disagree about ???).
Do you know if Rav Elyashiv and Rav Vosner would require 6 hours on muenster or mozzerella? Or is the Israeli cheese stronger?
HIE,
I’ve heard that quote. I’ve also heard that he said “I wish I could say it’s ????, but R’ Elyashiv said it’s ????.” I’ve also heard that the reason the Vaad of Flatbush is ????? on the worms is because R’ Dovid told R’ Bluth that he cannot be ????. I also heard (this one from a ?”? who had just minutes earlier discussed it with him) that he absolutely accepts the simple ??? in the ???? that worms generate in the fish (not like R’ Belsky or R’ Falk), and that if they were not ???? and then became ???? in the fish, it would have the same ???, and that whether or not this is what happens is the ???? here.
hello,
I don’t think the term “microscopic” is synonymous with ???? ??????.
hello,
” “many ?????? will be ?????”
it’s fine to be machmir, but it’s not assur then.”
Then let me rephrase; “many ?????? will say ????”.
“Why? According to your ?????”
Again. not a ?????, just ???? ???.
“it obtained the status of the host grape when it was living inside the grape and maintains it even when leaving, just like you claim the anisakis becomes a sheretz from the shrimp and remains one when it enters the salmon. What is the difference???”
Simple. When it is ????, it is a ??? ????? ?? ????. As far as the anisakis, ??”?. If it’s a ????, it’s ???? as a ??? ????. If not, it’s still a crustacean (in ???.)
“??? ??? ??? is only relevant if the worm developed in a live animal, and according to the ????”? it would not have the standard 5 issurim of sheretz.”
Of course not, it’s ????”?. I think I missed your point here.
re: size of copepods: Not really my point. I’m aware of the fact that most of the copepods are at least 100 microns; I was showing you the ????? of ????.
“I have still seen NO evidence of a blanket rule that a parasite obtains the hosts status ??? ????? ????!!!”
Then you haven’t followed my reasoning. I brought you a ????, a ??????, and two ??”?.
I think you totally missed the point about the cheese. You should have brought the biggest ???? from the ?”? himself who says you need six hours after aged cheese! The point is that you ALSO need to wait six hours after wormy cheese! Does anyone disagree with that?
Would Rav Elyashiv and Rav Vosner’s ??? apply to any cheeses available in the USA, other than Swiss and parmesan? (This question has nothing to do with our discussion, I just want to know.)
hello,
See ???? ????? who brings ??”? as “????? ???”.
hello
The ??”? I’m told, argues strongly on the ??”?’s acceptance of the ????”? even ????? ???? ?????, and many ?????? will be ?????. Besides the fact that whether this is considered a ???? ????? is a separate ????.
Undoubtedly, the ?????? are aware of these ????? and hold differently. The ??? ???? addressed it directly. ????? ??? ???? who makes a beatiful ???? in ??”? that ????? ???????? only applies to ??? and the ????’s ???? is only because it’s the same ???, but here it would be a ?????.
The Vaad of Queens is not makpid, but you can call and ask about specific establishments.
BTW, (and this is not a psak, I’m just telling you a fact, since you asked earlier) the Vaad of Flatbush is makpid on the worms.
“any of the vast majority of American poskim who hold that the fish is not treif”
You STILL have not listed you vast majority, and STILL insist, without any source, that which country you live in determines whether worms (not fish) are ossur.
cherrybim,
If a rav violates halacha himself, it’s not a good idea to use him as your rav. If you recall, I posted sources which referred to the halachos of following a psak based on the shailo itself, and who issued the psak. Of course before I would “discard” (your term) a rav, I would make sure to consult with an odom godol to see if I was doing the right thing.
In the future, I, and it seems many of us in the CR, would appreciate if you would pease keep your comments more civil.
hello,
“When the ???? lists the issurim involved in eating a bug it does not mention ???? ??? ?????? which would apply to a worm from grapes.”
Does it mention ??? ?? ????
hello again,
“When the ???? lists the issurim involved in eating a bug it does not mention ???? ??? ?????? which would apply to a worm from grapes.”
Correct. Because when it’s a ???, it’s not ???? ??? ??????. And when it’s part of the grape, it’s not a ???.
cherrybim,
Did you read the first sentence of my answer to you? In case it wasn’t clear enough to you, he holds that IT IS OSSUR to eat these worms. The point is, when the ?????? have issued a psak, local rabbonim are obligated to follow. If someone who I considered my rav would rule contrary to the psak of the majority of ??????, I think I would have to get a new rav. ?”?, my rav wouldn’t.
I have a rav so that I can ask him ????? to which I don’t know the answer. I never asked him if I can turn on a light on ???, because I know already. I also know that since the biggest poskim of our generation have issued a psak about the fish, then we are required to follow.
From your earlier posts, it seems that you have a rav in order to ask ????? for things which would be convenient for you to follow, otherwise you can pick and choose. I certainly hope that I have misunderstood you, and that this is not the case.
cherrybim,
The answer is that he feels it is not his place to argue on the ????? ????, who say ????. He’s a huge ?”?, but I don’t know what his personal opinion is, nor is it relevant ???? ?????.
“The bottom line is you are admitting there is NO ???? ?????? to your ????? ???. “
I believe in SG, as the ???? and ??????? say. Even so, I think it’s likely that becoming ???? would be the same. You find SG illogical and non-compelling. But it forces you to say that there is no ?????. So, bottom line, you should agree that the worm achieves the status of the crustacean. And it’s not a ????? ???. It is, as I’ve said, ???? ??? in the ???? (only the ???”? would possibly say it’s only because od ????”?), a clear ?????? (I believe other ??????? as well, I need to check) and the ??”? in two places, one if them cheese, on which I don’t know of any ?????? (of course, ?? ????? ???? ????, so I’ll be happy to hear of any).
Besides which, if it’s a ??? ???? beforehand then this point is irrelevant, and besides the fact that I believe all information available shows that it is ????, I believe I am correct that there is no ???? ???????, only a ???? ?????.
” “BTW, R’ Belsky’s 1-2mm was the length, (it is thinner than that) which is why what he’s saying is not ridiculous”
We’re talking about length, so what’s the ?????? “
It’s ? ????? he discredits reports of up to 5mm (although I don’t think that’s what you meant.)
The issue here is whether they are visible at a smaller size then 30-50 microns when the length is much bigger (as is even 1-2mm).
Can you see the tiny fibers protruding from a cloth? They are thinner than a human hair.
hello,
Sorry, I forgot to say gut voch.
Do you know anyone who argues on the ??”? by cheese?
BTW, the reason I didn’t use the ?”? in ??”? is that they were different in two prints of ??”?.
I’m still looking… Ez filter does 25-30. Not muchroch, but it makes sense for them to go with the most chomur.
http://israel613.com/books/TOLAIM_WATER_NY.pdf
BTW, my rov told me 30 is best, and I personally am sure that this is the shito l’chumro, I’m just trying to find you a source you’ll be happy with. Let me know when you’re satisfied.
I found the OU saying 50 microns for water, which is consistent with my assertion that it is mainstream. Wher does R’ Vaye say 300?
hello,
The ????? of ????”? is only acc. to ???”?, which is, I think, not like ????? ?? ???????. Also, it only applies if it’s a ????, which I am contending that it is not. The ???”? could agree by ????.
As I’ve said, Rav Feivel is ????? on 30, but it’s a ?????.
“Is the term “limit of resolution” equivalent to ???? ?????????”
I have no idea, but it seems the ?????? use this ?????. So my guess is, yes.
“Why do you assume that a long thin line is more visible then a circle of the same surface area???”
I think experimentation has been done, but I don’t remember the source, so I gave you the example of human hair to show you that it’s intuitively correct.
“Also, why do assume we follow the ???? ????? over the ???? ??????????”
What’s the ???? ?????????? We have no established starting point.
BTW, R’ Belsky’s 1-2mm was the length, (it is thinner than that) which is why what he’s saying is not ridiculous ?”?, just puzzling to me. Reports, though, say up to 5mm.
Cherrybim,
As I’ve said before, I’m not personally into numbers. If you want to know if my rov is lenient, and yet I continue to babble on about why I understand better the psak of issur, the answer is no.
hello,
Nice to hear from you again (I thought I gave myself a longer vacation from you by sending you that teshuva, but you must be a speed reader! 🙂 )
Thanks for your candor (expected by now).
I do hear your ????? between ?? ???… but if you deny the existance in ??”? of spontaneous generation, then you are forced to say that in these cases (you didn’t address ??????) the worms achieve the status of the host despite the fact that there is only a ????? ?? ???. Or else reject these ???’? of the ??”? and ??????’s understanding of the ????, which I doubt you would be willing to do. It would be quite interesting to find a ???? who is ???? the worms and therefore is now ???? selling ???? ????? to a ?”?! And is now ???? eating meat after wormy cheese! (Alternatively, requiring ????? ?’ ???? even with the worms removed)!
In other words, wheras I would not have such a problem making the ?????, one who says that SG is “a concept alien to ??”?” would be caught in a ??? ????.
You might be right about my decimal point, (I often write these posts way past my bedtime), but here’s a place to check:
http://www.onlineconversion.com/length_all.htm
When I put in 0.03mm, I get: 0.03 millimeter = 30 micron
From wikipedia references (under Orders of magnitude (length) )
I think 100 microns is the average. (It says there 90.) BTW, it says over there that 45 microns is “close to the limit of resolution for the human eye”. I’m not sure how close, and anyway it’s not an extremely precise number.
“If the eggs of anisakis are borderline on this ?????, it is logical to assume that the immature larva immediately upon hatching are SMALLER, not larger as you wrote, because they must fit inside the egg. Even if the krill do not swallow them immediately on hatching, it is doubtful if they grow significantly before they have any source of nourishment as they cannot eat without a host.”
I think you are correct; now we’re even on the candor. 🙂 However, after they hatch, they uncoil and become longer and thinner, which makes them more visible.
“Furthermore, I have not seen any indication if the scientists know whether the anisakis are swallowed by krill after they hatch or while they are still inside their eggs.”
I have. From CDC:
“The eggs become embryonated in water, and first-stage larvae are formed in the eggs. The larvae molt, becoming second-stage larvae , and after the larvae hatch from the eggs, they become free-swimming . Larvae released from the eggs are ingested by crustaceans “
http://www.dpd.cdc.gov/dpdx/html/anisakiasis.htm
I therefore do not believe that the only information available leans to the side of ????, ?????. Besides, I don’t think we would say ?? ??????? ??????; I think the rules of ???? would have us assume that since when we see it in the fish it was visible, it was visible in the water (???? ?????). I’m looking forward to your response; have a good ???! And enjoy your herring!
Yes, as do I. The definition of “My Rov” to allow one to follow his psak l’kuloh is spoken about in that Chazon Ish I mentioned earlier. It’s worth taking a look; not every Rav-talmid relationship qualifies.
I would like to add that the policy adopted by a kashrus agency does not constitute a psak. A psak is a halachic decision issued by a competent authority based on his thorough research in the topic, both halachic and practical (metsius).
Anything less is merely a decision on which psak to follow.
Cherrybim,
5. “And actually, halacha is regional, as in “minhag hamakom”.
6. “When in doubt, check with the Poskim and Rabbonim of your dor and local.”
Cherrybim,
You say I’m wrong again. Did you look up the sources? Do you know of sources which disagree with mine? I’m definitely open to see information I have not seen before.
I’m also puzzled by your assertion that the determination of majority is based on “local”. Do you have a source? And if I live in NJ, are NY poskim local? LA poskim? Canadian? Where do we draw the line? I ask you please not to answer with your own personal opinion, please back it up with an acceptable source.
cherrybim,
Halachah is not a free-for-all. There are very specific halachos about which psak one must follow.
See gemara Avodah Zara 7a “B’shel Torah” etc.
On a D’oraiso we follow the stringent view, on a D’rabonon we follow the lenient view.
See also Chazon Ish Y.D. 150 (beginning) for when one follows his own rav even when he is more lenient.
“Don’t take this the wrong way”, I am not paskening for you, but I am trying to make you aware that the only thing in this area which one can choose is who to accept as his rav, (also within limits) but not which psak he finds more convenient “if his regular rav/posek does not assir.”
cherrybim,
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/photos.php?albumid=5475594950756791761&photoid=5475594969937922690
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/photos.php?albumid=5475594950756791761&photoid=5475595006180290770
This from refdoc.fr; I’ll give the link,but I don’t know if the moderator will post it.):
cherrybim,
hello,
The ??? of ????? which we discussed is actually a ?”? as explained by the ?????? ??? in ??”? ?”?, ? (on ??”?).
Not a ??”?. Sorry for the error.
cherrybim,
What I mean is, do you also question R’ Karp’s facts, which indicate that these worms come from the outside? If you are merely quoting this questioner but don’t agree with him, then you are being consistent with the article which you posted earlier.
cherrybim,
About a week ago, you posted an article “From Science and Nature – Natural History of Anisakids:”.
Now, you posted a quote of someone questioning Rav Karp’s knowledge of how anisakis works. I don’t get your point.
cherrybim,
The issue is not since when are there anisakis, but rather when did they start entering fish from the outside en masse.
Hello,
How do you know what their ???? was based on?
Since the worms are longer, the ????? of thinness would be smaller. Imagine a very thin human hair. Do you think it would be invisible? I do not think so. A very thin human hair is merely 17 microns!
cherrybim,
Firstly, it’s not an issue of misleading anyone, most people knows there’s an issue here, and rely on their own rov; and even if someone relies on the OU as their rov, if Rabbi Genack does change OU policy, it’s to be “shoveh l’chol nefesh”, not because he feels R’ Belsky’s ???? is unreliable. If he felt so, then, yes, he would publicize it.
Secondly, I hope we are all smart enough to not rely on anything we see on the web, especially in th CR. “Heard it somewhere” certainly does not cut it in halocho, as you so correctly say, but it does tempt me do do further research.
cherrybim,
You make a lot of sense, but two things make me hesitate. Firstly, although ordinarily, the OU might publicize a policy change, in this case they may feel it would be a bizoyon to an odom godol. Secondly, I’m sure hello99 heard it from somewhere, which is why I asked him for his source, which he may or may not be able to post.