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This way, you could also book at least 3 weddings per night per hall, which should give the hall the same parnassa but cut the cost by a 1/3rd or more.
You would need to also triple the amount of people getting married, in order to fill up the other nights.
Apparently, it was printed in or slightly before ??? ???”?, plus I gave you a link to a teshuva from an earlier chelek. Here are the key words:
??? ??????? ??????? ???? ?? ????????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??????
Loose translation with my emphasis:
If it’s very difficult to obtain CY, even individuals need not be stringent.
You can quibble with translating the words ??? ??? ?????? as “need not be stringent”, but it makes no sense to say that he meant it is assur to be machmir.
The evidence that his heter was for a “shaas had’chak” is overwhelming. In order to dispute it, you have to assert that the teshuva in ches is fraudulent, ignore the clear implications of the other teshuvos (especially the one I just translated), and somehow assume that R’ Moshe did not mean for the one which I originally posted to get out (which obviously R’ Forst disagrees with and you haven’t demonstrated any rov who holds otherwise). If that’s somehow the case, you have to assume that R’ Moshe’s reason for not wanting it to be publicized is that he didn’t really believe what he wrote!
DY – how does that answer your question?
It’s quicker for the mod to delete the whole thread than to carefully sort through many inappropriate or borderline posts in a controversial thread.
I would still prefer the thread continue, but I’m not sponsoring;)
Daas Yochid: Was it publicized earlier at the request of R’ Moshe, or by someone else? I didn’t mean that R’ Moshe didn’t write the letter, I meant it wasn’t his opinion to publicize it.
It was printed in a kashrus guide of some sort, I doubt against his will. It is also wholly consistent with the teshuva in chelek ches, and the other teshuvos in Igros also imply as much. For example, the one we referred to earlier, ??”? ?’ ???? ?”? ,says at the end (of the cholov part) that people who live far away (he likely means from the NY area) need not be machmir because of the expense and tircha, clearly implying that without the expense and tircha, one should be machmir.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14676&st=&pgnum=44
BTW, I don’t agree with you assessment of R’ Forst; I think he’s in the middle, but that’s all subjective.
I would like to point out that the takanos did allow for exceptions for exceptional situations. That includes all of Sacrilege’s stories, and even includes one of the undersigned Rabbonim attending the simcha of someone who helps in klal inyonim, or even that Rov’s own mossad.
The problem was that it watered the whole thing down to nothing more than a suggestion.
deleting a thread takes one click
There’s my answer. Thanks.
bpt,
In theory, I agree, but the number of guests is, if anything, the hardest to enforce. Some people have large families.
I personally don’t go to many chasunas because of my schedule. I think a great solution would be for all the men to have an iron clad seder at night, and politely respond no with the very valid excuse that you have a vital prior commitment.
I’m just curious, when a thread becomes inappropriate (and I totally agree that we should not be bashing the police), why does the thread close instead of the offending posts being deleted? Does it become too time consuming because too many posts need to be deleted?
Feif Un,
It certainly was R’ Moshe’s opinion; this was, as I mentioned, publicized years ago and R’ Forst merely reprinted it.
In all of the teshuvos in Igros, reference was made to the preference to be machmir, but this one is even clearer. The one in the (controversial) eighth chelek is also quite clear. I’ll copy the relevant passage from earlier in the thread (emphasis mine, parenthetical notes removed):
????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??????, ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????
chap what?
It was an inside joke, for those following certain other threads.
always here,
I was wondering if anyone “chapped”!
Feif Un,
It was originally printed publicly, in the (????? ?????? (??? ???? ???-???? ???”?. Rav Forst obviously feels that it is for the general public. And his reason (in the situation it refers to) applies universally. I’m not defining any individual’s ????, but he clearly is saying that for the most part, people should not be lenient.
IMHO the reason 1 man bands have become more popular is because the quality of their music has improved over the past 10 years.
I think they’re both true.
There’s one more complaint against those who employ babysitters that I haven’t seen addressed here. Not only should the parents call if they’ll be late, they should not come back late! If a babysitter took a job with the understanding that she’d be home at 10:30, it’s not fair to first arrive at 11:30! The parents should ask in advance how late she can stay if things don’t go as scheduled, but otherwise, she may need to get to sleep at a certain hour (or have other things to do at home) and she’s stuck. Of course, unavoidable events can occur, such as traffic, but some people make a habit out of it.
I would think that reward is more accurate, since our Employer has full discretion in what He rewards us with.
keep in mind that in many cases there is no perfect translation of a word from Lashon Hakodesh into English.
You’re lucky. I know someone who almost got a ticket for talking on his cell phone because the police officer saw him scratching his ear. He only got out of it because he didn’t have his cell phone with him and he allowed the cop to search for it!
We are all, to a certain extent B”T every time we are mekayeim a mitzvah whoch we did not do beforehand in the proper way. But what is generally meant by the term, is not the frum Yid who tries to grow in his Torah and Yiddishkeit, but rather the Yid who was never minimally frum to begin with, or who was OTD, and in both cases, returned to frum observance.
You are correct in the common usage of the term, and I think you answered the OP’s question.
To the best of my knowledge, the original term technically can refer to anyone who has done teshuva (which involves regret, besides proper observance) from even one aveira.
Or the guy (me) who has an epiphany and starts keeping lo sisna et achicha bilvavecha?
Which part is new, the lo sisna et achicha, or the bilvavecha? 🙂
The Rabbonim wrote “except for extenuating circumstances”, but it did take the teeth out of it. However, it gives some people an excuse not to
overextend themselves. I think one man bands have become more popular than before the takanos.
Subway, Dunkin’ Donuts, KFC, Golden Flow, Twizzlers.
Did you get the ticket?
That letter was written for a specific case. A yeshiva, which had only bought C”Y milk for years, was thinking of switching. R’ Moshe urged them not to. This psak was meant ONLY for the yeshiva, not for the general public.
You’re mistaking it with the one printed in ????? ???.
That one is in ??”? ?’ ???? ?”?. In that ?????, written about yeshivas, he specifically mentions that for reasons of chinuch, they should be ????? despite the fact that over the course of the year it’s a large expense, and the financial situation in the yeshivas is tight.
This one was written to ?’ ????? ?????????; that one to ?’ ???? ??? ??????.
Shaas Had’chak translates to mean emergency. What you are talking about, I believe, is B’dieved, which is something else. L’chatchilah and b’dieved are opposite ends of the spectrum. Sh”HD is when there IS an emergency involved. If that is incorrect, then I want a refund from the yeshivos I attended here, and from my Seminary in E”Y.
If tuition was, then, even close to what it is now, you’ll be rich 😉
The “emergency” of pikuach nefesh is in a totally separate category of “emergency” than the type referred to as “shaas had’chak”. Shaas had’chak, for example, would be an elderly or infirm person who has trouble digesting matzo, so he would be allowed to eat egg matzo on Pesach, even according to Ashkenazic tradition. In a case of pikuach nefesh, one could even eat chometz if necessary.
Technically, l’chatchila means before the fact, and “b’dieved” means after the fact. An example: “l’chatchila”, one is not allowed to cook meat in a dairy pot, even if it has not been used in 24 hours. B’dieved, if it was cooked, the food is permissible (because the absorbed flavors in the pot have become “pogum” (putrid).
In common vernacular, the word “b’dieved” is substituted for “shaas had’chak”, so might hear someone say that the elderly or infirm person may “b’dieved” eat egg matzo.
Folks, she’s right, there are not enough babysitters around, especially in Lakewood, and most girls who do it are for the most part doing it as a chessed, although they would not do it for free.
That having been said, I think Aries makes great points on both sides of the equation.
so now there seems to be some level of agreement…how dull!
Agreement is not dull, it’s exciting 🙂
According to the above letter quoted from Rav Moshe, it is not proper to rely on the leniency of chalav stam if one can get Ch”Y milk with a little more effort and price.
So then, how do you define effort (Tircha) and price. Usually 1/6 is the amount for overcharge. In this case, the difference is usually more than 1/6. More like %50 to %100 (or more if OOT).
I don’t know, I guess it depends on the individual, but I doubt the difference is bigger now than when R’ Moshe Zt”l wrote this (late 70’s).
Daas Yochid…thats pretty funny…must of been under a very leniant hecksher 🙂
Yes, but we knew that already from our previous discussions. 🙂
(Folks, don’t jump all over me, I’m kidding.)
Ok. But Shaas ha’dchak is NOT a kula, it is about finding a LOOPHOLE that just squeaks by, in the event of an emergency. And one could argue, that that is a whole other set of halachos that come under the “In Case Of Emergency” header. Meaning: This and this is the halacha, but ICOE this OTHER thing is the halacha that may be followed if needed (but ONLY because of the emergency involved). Emergencies i.e., pikuach nefesh on Shabbos, often abrogate certain halachos that must ordinarily be followed to the T.
You are mixing up two things. Pikuach nefesh takes precedence over all (but three) prohibitions, even if they are certainly prohibited. Shaas had’chak only allows us to use a lenient approach if there is a reasonable way of understanding the halacha that way.
Shticky, what a great job,
so good, my head now does throb.
Poignant and moving,
I am approving,
and you used no corn on the cob.
We’ll very much miss you, eclipse,
your leaving’s an apocalypse.
Often quite funny,
with a nature that’s sunny,
we’ll miss your wisdom and quips.
Occasionally, please do drop by,
agree, please, or we will all cry.
We CR’ers grieve
that you need to leave,
although you have good reason why.
I guess this is your swan song,
be moichel, if we’ve done you wrong.
We wish you hatzlocha,
with nachas and brocha,
so goodbye, farewell and so long.
This appears in the back of Rav Binyomin Forst’s sefer,
פתחי הלכה, קיצור הלכות כשרותתשובה מהגאון הגדול, פאר הדור
מרן מוהר”ר משה פיינשטיין זצ”לבענין חלב שבמדינותנו
(כפי אשר נדפס צילומו במדריך לכשרות נוא יארק אדר-ניסן תשל”ז).
בע”ה
ב’ דר”ח תמוז תשט”ז,מע”כ ידידי המאו”ג מהר”ר אברהם וויינפעלד שליט”א
שלום וברכה כל הימיםהנה בדבר חלב הקאמפאניעס שבמדינותנו ודאי יש טעמים להתיר לומר שאינם בכלל האיסור שאמרו חז”ל וכדחזינן שהרבה מקילין בזה מפני הדוחק, בהרבה מקומות. אבל במקום שאפשר להשיג אף שעולה בקצת טרחה יותר ואף ביוקר מעט, חלב של ישראל, אין מן הראוי להקל בזה וצריכים להשיג חלב של ישראל
והנני ידידו
משה פיינשטייןalright I’m going to Subway, what do you guys want me to pick up for you?
Black Forest Ham sub, please.
Someone once showed me the menu from the now defunct Brooklyn Subway, and that was actually on the (obviously misprinted) menu! Some people had a good time and calling the store and asking about it.
I believe David is talking about Halachic Mechitzos that exist in some cities, like rivers, than can be used for an Eruv.
I’m not sure which mechitzos he’s referring to; maybe tzuras hapesach?
Either way, If I understand PBA’s point correctly, he’s saying that if we consider it a r’shus harabim, mechitzos don’t help.
I believe that this part of the discussion took place in the kosher Subway thread.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kosher-subway/page/5#post-207059
Oomis,
L’kula, is the minimum standard of halachic chiuyv. it IS the halacha that Hashem gave us. He also gave rabbonim the power to pasken, and they often pasken far more than is required by the perfect halacha that we were already given. we make a choice to be more strict, or follow the given halacha. Kula is not a four-letter word (except as I spelled it). And the people who look at it almost derisively, err seriously. following the kula is NOT the same precise thing as saying someone is more mekeil, because being mekeil sometimes involves letting something “slide” to a certain extent (like when a rov paskens that something is “kosher” b’dieved, but really it should not be used). A kula means that the item was never a chashash in its kashrus. Just some people hold more strictly for themselves.
In my earlier post, I expressed (albeit in a long-winded way) why I (respectfully) disagree with you.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kosher-subway/page/5?replies=209#post-207086
apushatayid,
These are the posts in which I addressed the hashkafah issues (besides the ones in which I addressed you). I have nothing more to add, other than to reiterate that it’s a subtle issue (and I don’t think it’s even close to being the most important problem facing Klal Yisroel), I understand that not everyone will agree with it or even understand it, and that I don’t hold anything against anybody who disagrees with me and/or eats in Subway.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kosher-subway#post-203821
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kosher-subway/page/4#post-206479
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kosher-subway/page/4#post-206501
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kosher-subway/page/4#post-206532
TheLargeWhiteUrsineReturns,
Wait a minute? An eruv lets you carry in the subway on Shabbos – or the MTA now offers kosher subway cars? Ich khap nisht…
While you were away,[:)]the thread went off on a tangent (as is common here in the coffee room).
When different people, or “groups” practice halacha differently (I’m referring to within the legitimate boundaries of halacha), there can be negative feelings both ways. The ones who are more stringent have a nisayon to consider themselves superior to the ones who are less stringent. It’s a difficult nisayon; the reason someone chooses to be more machmir is because he feels it is better (and the poskim often use the term “Tavo Alav Brachah” on observance of a more stringent opinion). Some pass this nisayon, and some fail. Often one matures and develops as a person, and is able to improve is this crucial area of ahavas Yisroel. Hence, a common observation made is that a child who has adopted stringencies on (her)himself does not treat his parents, or others, with proper respect in this area.
On the other hand, those who keep halacha in a more lenient fashion have a nisayon to assume that anyone who keeps “stringencies’ is definitely looking down at them. An additional nisayon is to completely deny that there is anything better about following an approach which is, actually, inherently better, as discussed in the poskim (even if not obligatory).
What should someone use to determine whether or not to practice a particular halacha in a more stringent or more lenient manner? Ultimately, I hope, we can all agree, whichever way is better for one’s avodas Hashem. There are numerous variables which can affect this determination, including, but not limited to, the degree of difficulty in being more stringent (which can itself be determined by many factors) and the halachic importance of that particular stringecy/leniency. This also has many aspects to it; the stringency of the actual halacha (for example a potential aveira whose violation carries a more severe punishment), and the halachic process from which the final psak is derived. This itself includes many factors, such as the greatness and halachic status of the posek/poskim whose opinion is being discussed, and the circumstances under which the psak was issued.
It is to this last point which my comments throughout this thread, regarding chumras and kulas, have been directed.
I believe that one needs to take this into consideration when deciding whether or not to insist on only purchasing or consuming yoshon products. (S)he must also consider many other factors, as well.
Oomis,
It was suggested that I was too harsh on you so I would like to address you more directly. First of all, I don’t mean in any way to hurt anyone’s feelings, so if I did, I sincerely apologize.
I would like to explain my position again so that, hopefully we can achieve mutual understanding. I will do so in a separate post (because I’m not merely addressing one individual, rather, anyone who cares to read one person’s opinion on this matter).
TheLargeWhiteUrsineReturns,
We only use blue milk. Less fat. 😉
I’m sorry I didn’t address your post earlier; I had missed it.
@daas yochid-
As I said on here previously, they aren’t just putting up a name and it magically tastes better. The franchise prescribes uniform standards for food preparation, along with cleanliness standards, and building design (which just adds to the aesthetic appeal).
As I’ve said, I don’t know for certain what the appeal is, but I have my suspicions; probably, the attraction is different for different people. I’ve also said that these are subtle points, and although I have my opinion, I’m not negatively judging any particular individual who goes to Subway.
A kula is not anytime that there is any sort of machlokes, at least that is not how it’s used by most people.
I agree. I am not suggesting that the term be used anytime there is a more stringent opinion. I am using the term, as well as the term “chumra”, on an individual basis, when an opinion deviates from the halachic “norm” as determined by learning through the “sugya”. Many people use the terms as a deviation from how halacha is practiced by the majority. I have no problem with it; it’s just semantics, I just think that someone should explain how (s)he uses the term so that (s)he is understood; that’s what I am now trying (again) to do.
Daas-no mockery,please
It was meant in good humor. I apologize if it wasn’t taken that way.
The snow existed prior to Shabat, in the clouds, in the form of water vapor and/or ice crystals.
I’m not a scientist; I believe you are, so correct me if I’m wrong – since the creation of the world, there is no new matter, only restructuring. Obviously, then, nolad does not mean yesh meiayin, only some form of restructuring of matter.
rabbiofberlin,
(If I understand your point correctly) if you’re right, then in every ?????? in ?”?, we should pasken ?????. And in every ?????? in the ???????, we should pasken ?????.
We don’t.
Daas~ I think you’re being unnecessarily harsh with oomis. I think she was speaking of having sholom here, & ‘live & let live’, of course within the bounds of halacha. IMHO
I never tried to stop anyone from eating anywhere, nor do I look down at anyone who eats in a Subway. I have my opinions about why it’s not the best thing; if someone agrees with me, fine. If not, also fine. It bothers me, though, that some people seem to feel that I have no right to express my opinions in a public forum such as this one if it’s more stringent than theirs.
Daas. Why not? I don’t have an opinion either way since I have no hashkafic issue with a Subway that has a hechsher.
If you’re asking why I have an issue with Subway and not with fixing clothing, it’s because I get the feeling (and I know I could be wrong) that the main appeal of a kosher Subway, KFC or McDonalds is that now we can “be like the goyim”. We should be happy enough with our own identity as Yidden. Fixing clothing is not related to this.
Does it bother you whenn going up the aisles of a heimishe grocery that you see “stickers” on malt o meal cereals, hersheys twizzlers, mike and ikes candies and dozens of other products?
No
DY, no one would keep crack in the house because there is no possible healthy use for it. Maybe a comparison to alcoholic beverages makes more sense.
Conceded. I think most people (regarding unfiltered internet) would then be analogous to an alcoholic.
@ Ferd.
SHE made the claim, so SHE should ask her posek. Noone else made a ridicules claim here besides her by demanding – as if its halacha limoshe misinai – that we all must shovel snow on shabbos!
First of all, I think it’s a he. Second of all, the point I’m making is that even if his posek says mutar to shovel, if mine doesn’t, I’m not shoveling.
And BTW, you made a great point about when the snow fell.
What’s the difference with all this arguing? If the food is unquestionably kosher, either eat it or don’t. But don’t take the taam away from other people who want to eat in these places. I was ecstatic when dunkin’ Donuts kashered their local franchise. And they are ecstatic, too, because it quadrupled their profits.
So let me get this straight; you think that we should not be able to discuss the halachic and hashkafic issues involved because you won’t have the same taam when you go to DD? (which by the way, was not brought up here, if I recall correctly)
Also, why should you lose your taam if you feel that it is unquestionably kosher?
(I’d also like to know where you are getting that all streets are 16 amos long, …)
I think you mean wide – if you include the sidewalks (which you should; it’s part of the public thoroughfare) most streets are 16 amos wide.
Have you asked a posek?
Better yet, call a posek, and get back to us. Make sure to post his name as well.
Even better, call the posek of every member of the CR.
I’d say good shabbos to either gender, if they’re CR members
good line