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I don’t believe in double dipping, I think this only confuses things. If you date two boys or two girls at the same time, you wind up comparing one to the other and don’t give either one the full attention and chance they deserve ….”her eyes are prettier, he is taller, she dresses nicer, he has dimples, she is thinner, he is funnier, her hair is longer…..” you wind up making stupid comparisons that really have nothing to do with tachlis.
I agree, and would add that one can also forget which one said what, and not have an accurate picture (and it could also lead to an embarrassing situation).
I would add the caveat that sometimes due to circumstances, there might be an exception, e.g. someone is in from out of town.
CS, as far as your friend telling you HER opinion based on the phone call, that was wrong, wrong, wrong! People do ask stupid questions but the guy in question might be a great guy even if his mother asks stupid questions. Your friend’s tainted opinion due to the phone call is foolish and should not be a reason not to go out with a guy that might be a real good match for you. Don’t make up your mind according to your friend’s opinion. IF the shidduch is redt to you, find out about the guy and forget about your friend’s opinion. The phone call and your friend’s reaction might be something the two of you can laugh about in the future, you never know.
Agreed, unless it’s clear that the stupid questions are from the fellow himself (and it still might not be anything more than a small flaw in an otherwise solid character).
they let the kids play out there all day … well guess what my sleep is important too.
I don’t understand your complaint. If they play during the day, that seems reasonable to me because most people sleep at night.
BTW, I also sincerely believe that once someone has gone out with someone three times, they should NOT be considering anyone else until the budding relationship has come to some conclusion. One date does not make a relationship, but seeing someone more than a couple of times means there is SOMETHING there, and the potential should be respected and allowed to develop unhindered by other shidduchim.
What happens if they both seem like a good shidduch?
He is married now, B”H seems to be happy. Obviously it was bashert for him to marry the girl he married.
Then why do you think it’s a real shame that they never met?
If you read even just the last bit of the original post, you will see that I said all I was doing was centralizing the discussion.
Yossi, read the middle of your OP, it sounds like you’re in favor of it.
But is matir soap.
Because you don’t eat soap?
Feif Un,
A beautiful explanation.
I think, though, that it fits better with the first p’shat which HaleiVi quoted from Rash”i, and he was looking to understand the second one.
The explanation of the second p’shat, may I suggest, is that all mitzvos bein adam lamakom also include an aspect of bein adam lachaveiro, because kol Yisroel areivim zeh lozeh, so one person’s aveira affects the next person as well.
popa,
You don’t have to nix the whole idea, you could personally opt out.
(I’m not in favor of the idea for a different reason.)
They never did meet each other, and I make no apologies for feeling that this is a real shame.
What happened, did that girl end up in an unhappy marriage?
whatever it takes to get our single people married, should be considered, even if it means “double dipping”
Do you mean agreeing to two shidduchim at the same time, or seeing two people at the same time?
I think the rules seem to apply less as singles get older.
I am not taking a strong stance on this issue at all, I merely stated that I’m “uncomfortable” because of Sacrilige’s reason, which, as I understood it, is that it’s hurtful to hear that a boy agreed to go out, and then less than a week later if she also agrees, he’s suddenly busy. On the other hand, as popa said, and you, I think, agree, why should he have to put his efforts to get married on hold for a week.
I’m somewhere in the middle here; I think you and Sacrilege are on opposite sides.
call the cops
Call your posek first and ask if you’re allowed to. And ask if it’s a wise thing to do.
Taz, 95:14-15 is skeptical. He says if so it should be muttar if you wash your pot with soap that is made of non kosher fat as long as the soap contains ashes. He does not buy it.
Does that mean it’s not a bubba maaseh?
Daas: Since the cholov akum makes the utensils treif (as you’ve said), how does even aino ben yomo help?
I never said the cholov akum makes the utensils treif, I said it in a general sense; I would not call cholov stam treif. Besides the fact that there is more than one legitimate heter to rely on, R’ Moshe, although recommending one be machmir, clearly writes that one who relies on it is not a “m’zalzel b’issurim”. I dare say that referring to “cholov stam” as “cholov akum” degrades R’ Moshe and anyone who relies on the heter.
how does even aino ben yomo help?
Because b’dieved, an aino ben yomo does not make the food ossur, because the absorbed flavors become “pogum,” bad tasting.
How can (some) people who are makpid on only eating CY, not be makpid on the utensils (considering the above issue)?
Either because we assume that the keilim are aino ben yomo, or because they only accepted CY as a chumra, and excepted keilim. I don’t understand this second approach, but it seems to be common.
And are you saying you can eat pareve food made with dairy equipment together WITH your fleishig meal, or only 5 minutes after your fleishig meal?
It depends on whether the equipment was ben yomo or not, and, if I recall correctly, whether it’s in your mouth at the same time.
There is also a distinction between if the food was intentionally made to be served with fleishig, which is why I originally limited my response to manufactured items.
Mosherose,
Why are you standing in teh way of helping people with their tuition and getting money to yeshivos? Why dont you work on solving the problm instead of saying we cant do it.
Good idea. I propose that we solve the tuition problem by only hiring volunteers as teachers, convincing the banks to forgive all mortgages, and utility companies to waive all payments.
What is the halachic difference between cholov stam (“d”) and dairy equipment food(“de”)? If someone doesn’t eat CS, they usually are machmir on not eating DE as well?
And can DE be eaten with fleishigs? Or after fleishigs (i.e. before 6 hours but not together with the fleishigs)?
In theory, since the halacha is clear that cholov akum makes utensils non-kosher, one who is makpid on CY should also be makpid on utensils. In practice, not everyone is. An important factor to consider is whether the equipment was used within the last 24 hours (“ben yomo”) or not (“eino ben yomo”). In the latter case, it would not be a problem.
As far as eating together with fleishigs, again, it depends on when the last time the equipment was used for milchig. I’m referring to manufactured items; using your own milchig pots is a bit more complicated.
Regarding waiting 6 hours, it is not required, even if it was a ben yomo.
Of course, ask your posek.
BTW, the OU does not use the DE designation, but other hechsherim do, and by calling the OU you can determine if a particular product has dairy ingredients or is merely manufactured on dairy utensils.
You try not to eat dairy equipment? Well you never really should, I mean, it can be very detrimental to your digestive system, it’s not really made for metals, plastics, and rubber
And even if by some odd chance dunno meant food processed on dairy equipment, most likely (I assume; someone can correct me if I’m wrong) the coffee is made on parve equipment.
The whole system is warped! and that’s why there’s a Shidduch crisis. The boys have created for themselves an elitist attitude and it’s not a healthy attitude.
You’ve got it backwards. There’s a shidduch crises because there are more girls looking to get married than boys looking to get married. And yes, some boys therefore develop an elitist attitude; it means they don’t have proper midos to begin with. Some girls, despite the situation, still have an elitist attitude. Those girls also don’t have proper midos.
To say that I claim that taking on goyish holidays is such a distortion of what i wrote.
You’re right; I apologize for my implicit agreement.
s2021,
I don’t know if you were in the situation of a neder (you would have to ask a posek), but even if so, being matir neder works retroactively, so you should do that.
May Hashem bentch you with simcha!
charliehall,
Makes sense.
Why do all geirim fall into the halachic category of zonah, considering a ger is halachicly considered to have been reborn at the time of his conversion (to the point that his birth parents are no longer his parents)?
Not everything starts from scratch. Does a ger have to pay back debts from before he was m’gayer?
Not taking on goyish holidays is a chumrah? Sorry I didn’t know that!
Anything which someone doesn’t keep is a chumrah to them.
If there have been attempts to repeal the Blaine Amendment which failed for political reasons, wouldn’t enrolling our children in public schools (assuming that there really is not enough room) have the effect of forcing the state to repeal it?
By the way, this nap thing is a corruption the Shiur of drinking until you fall asleep from it.
That’s what R’ Yaakov Kaminetzky zt”l did.
Aries,
I think the issue should have been brought to your son’s attention, but not directly by the “girl”.
A general mechilah does not carry the same weight, IMO, as a specific one.
On the other hand, to ease the discomfort on your son’s part (and for tznius reasons) he should be asked for mechilah by a third party.
This happened to me once; I was the third party. The “boy” didn’t even remember being offended, but he was moichel b’lev shalem just in case.
Now we’re on a different page 🙂
If the food is free, does that make it okay even if it’s not kosher?
I don’t think I would call me that.
That’s good, because if you did, you wouldn’t be one 🙂
As far as nedarim, IIRC, R’ Moshe says it depends on whether you keep C”Y because you think C”S is assur or as a chumra.
I personally accepted it as bli neder and occasionally on erev R”H specify it during hatoras nedarim.
Otherwise don’t start
If the reason one is not starting is because of nedarim, it’s easy enough to say “bli neder”.
Aries,
True. But it seems that we agree that the issue brought up by PBA of making the other party wait is a non-issue (that’s assuming it’s okay to give multiple yeses, I don’t know what modern protocol is and I’m not too comfortable with it). I think he was assuming that if a boy says yes, he should not go out with someone else until the girl gives an answer.
As far as how to push off the shadchan/other side tactfully, although if necessary, “muttar l’shanos mipnei hashalom”, wouldn’t it be better to say that it’s taking time to reach the people you want to speak to? I suppose it depends on how much time you are taking.
Sacrilege,
I just saw your post now, so I’m adding to this one. I am not advocating saying yes to more than one at a time; it seemed to me that Aries was, and Oomis seems to as well. I personally think there should be some time that the boy should wait, for your reasons. I was actually half serious before when I said four days; there needs to be a balance between reasonable time to do research and how long a boy has to stay in limbo while awaiting an answer.
Oomis,
If either party can agree to see multiple prospective spouses at the same time and go out with whomever says yes first, wouldn’t the issue of taking too much time be moot? Let someone take as much time as they feel they need to make a decision, they’re not hindering the other party anyway.
Sacrilege,
This was the point I was getting at, I wasn’t trying to compromise anyone’s respect.
R’ Chaim Kanievsky, in his sefer on Maseches Mezuzah, wants to say that 3.5 is “lav davka” but brings two proofs otherwise and seems to conclude that it is specifically 3.5 years.
The source is Yoma 11a.
As far as tefillin, if worn regularly, it is recommended but not required (practically, sofrim may recommend against it, as shlomozalman said). If worn inconsistently, it is a requirement. If they fell into water, it seems that they need to be checked immediately.
Wolf,
I think BAU stands for business as usual.
Daas: if you check after 4 years, you can or will end up with a 7 year period of only one checking.
How so? I added the stipulation that it also be checked after another three years.
Of course, if you take my scenario to its extreme, I could check my mezuzos twice in one day and then, seven years later, twice again, ‘??? . So it’s possible that it needs literally 3.5; I’m talking off of the top of my head so I’ll ??”? research and let you know what I find.
Homeowner,
I copied from that link what was there when it was up.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/sitting-in-starbucks-right-now#post-208664
Daas: IOW, you’re maintaining 3.5 years is the maximum allowed before you are required to check again?
I’m not sure, it might still be true that if you check after 4, you would then check after another three. That would satisfy the math, but I need to check the sources; twice in seven years might be a way of saying every 3.5.
No, but when they call back they are usually met with “Oh he has just gotten a yes back from someone else so he is busy right now”. You never know if that is true or not.
Do you think that, if true, the boy had a right to say yes to two girls at the same time and see which one said yes first?
Why not?
I’ll assume that your not asking Aries why she never heard of twice in seven years, so I’ll answer.
You’re assuming that you get to pick which seven years to look at, but it has to be true about any seven year stretch. Say for example, that you had them checked in year 0 (when you bought them), year 6, and year 12. You would say that from 0-6 they were checked twice, and from 6-12 checked twice. However, from 3-9, for example, they were only checked once.
I never took a poll 🙂
I was answering real-brisker’s question about how could the answers to the OP’s questions be yes and yes.
Has anyone ever retracted a “Yes” b/c the other side was taking too much time?
I once wanted to (after we had gone out a couple of times, she said she needs a week to think about it) but I was advised not to, because despite the fact that she displayed a lack of consideration, I might get a bad reputation if I called it off.
Most of the time you won’t find out everything you need to know before you start dating. Here’s a secret “people lie when they give information”.
Really? I never woulda thunk it. 😉
Seriously, it’s circular; people are comfortable giving false and incomplete information because they figure, “let them go out and they’ll see for themselves anyhow”. The more emphasis placed on information rather than dating, the more truthful the information would be. I say this on a societal scale (for example, I think it works that way by chassidim). On an individual basis, you have to deal with reality.
How about we compromise on 4 days and call it a night? 🙂
knee-jerk emotional reactions
You mean like your post?
48 hours, not including shabbos. After that you move on, and you do not need to even tell the shadchan. Assuming a girl asked a shadchan to redt a shidduch to a boy, the boy is under no obligation to get back at all. Usually, the boy is not even told that the girl was behind it. A shidduch begins when the boy says yes. Yes. Whatever. That is ridiculous.
Yes, absolutely ridiculous.
Cholent on Shabbos morning, and coffee (brewed and freshly opened jar) during the week.
No and no.
And until the next shipment of C”Y comes to my far OOT community, I’m drinking soy milk.
Then I guess you are a ??? ???!
noone that i know dates before 24-25 so your statement about 23 is wrong
Are you an “alter Mirrer”?
SHILSHI said and i quote “how can anyone drink from starbucks even now, knowing what we now know. even if more information if forthcoming, we already know there is a major problem. i dont see how its possible to drink there” and this is before the cRc has made their final desicion.
He’s right to advocate not drinking there before the cRc makes their final determination.
pba,
I didn’t know it took so long to recover from a caffeine overdose.
Daas,
That’s actually not as easy as it sounds. Most people either hold of Rabbeinu Tam’s definition of Shkia or they don’t. Some are Machmir on Shabbos not to do Melacha, but otherwise it’s usually not just a Chumra.
I’m not sure how easy it sounded, but I’ll explain; if you hold like ?”? ????? ????, you might still try to daven before the earlier ?????. If you hold like the ??????, you can’t rely on the later ?????.
MDG,
I never meant to say that R’ Moshe reconsidered or contradicted himself in any way. Only that the practical application of the heter changes based on the circumstances.
I think that “ba’al nefesh yachmir” meant even if difficult.
You ask which yechidim he refers to, and I think he means the general population, as opposed to yeshivos.
I agree that it’s possible to understand it the way you did, but besides the fact that I think my way is the simpler way, it also conforms with the other two teshuvos.
I still see no reason not to accept the other two teshuvos, especially the one from the ????? ??????. The fact that it was not printed in Igros Moshe is immaterial; many of his teshuvos were not.