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Even on Tisha B’av we are permitted to respond to an “inappropriate” greeting with a quiet curt response.
Different kind of inappropriate.
DOS was just the breaking news when I started working
Am I that old? 🙂
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/twisting-usernames#post-197601
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I can type in Hebrew!!!!!
I have Hebrew on my computer, but that’s good to know; thanks.
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You can’t sell what you don’t own; I would assume that you could tranfer the lease (but I can’t guarantee it) but the new owner would not have any more rights than you. And you probably can’t keep any copies or files which you made while you owned the rights. (That may depend on the shaila of copying what you didn’t purchase.)
Your welcome, keep ’em coming!
IOW, you are saying a download is impossible to rent. Or that the website is missing any disclaimer declaring it a rental? It seems to me that it would be impossible to “rent” an intangible asset, like a download — even with the proper terminology on the website.
I think I already mentioned that I don’t know if they can regulate a download.
What I meant with this point is that they don’t mention a rental option on the CD. They call it BUY CD.
I am sorry for not being more clear.
If you are a bit older than 14, you could have nodded and said hello then walked on and ignored them.
They looked like yeshiva bochurim, which means they knew better, and were not up to any good. Her response was correct.
Good one, The Goq (two, actually).
I complimented The Goq.
You did the right thing.
I agree.
There are some possible arguments to question the validity of the rental, but I haven’t yet seen them brought up here.
Which arguments, that you know of, haven’t been brought up yet?
Sorry, I missed that earlier post.
One of them was mentioned, that the agreement between all of the earlier parties (producer-distributor-store) would need to be done correctly.
The other, I also hinted at; they are sometimes inconsistent in how they term the transaction. If they sometimes refer to the transaction as a sale, would that invalidate the “rental”? I don’t know.
One example is what I mentioned previously, that on the same CD it says:
“THIS CD IS BEING RENTED NOT SOLD
Ask your retailer for a copy of the rental agreement, also see enclosed copy”
and then it says:
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Also, on the Mostly Music website (Aderet), there are two options: Buy CD, and Buy Download.
Again, I am not claiming that this definitely overrides the terminology on the CD, but it’s something to think about. If during the online purchase process nothing is mentioned about a lease (anybody have experience with this?), then they shouldn’t be able to consider it one (unless you knew beforehand that the particular CD has a lease agreement inside).
If Aderet is renting the CD to me for 20 years, that means I have a contractual rental relationship with Aderet for the next 20 years. If the CD stops working after 5 years, they must replace it. If not, it was all a joke and never a rental.
IIRC, it’s written in the agreement.
On second thought, it’s not written in, but doesn’t need to be (what is written is the opposite – that the consumer is not liable for breakage).
If the CD was defective, it would the company’s obligation to replace it (no different than a sale) but otherwise, if anything, it would be the consumers obligation (hence the exemption).
“If the transaction between the store and distributor is done correctly”
Its most probebly done by a delivery boy who dosent know by wich side to open an Shulchan Aruch.
The terms of “sale” or “rental” are not determined by the delivery boy, rather the store owner/authorized rep. and distributor/authorized rep.
So if after I rent the CD I lose or break it, I am liable to replace it for the owner (Aderet)?
They specifically exempt you from damages.
Does the rental allow me to loan my CD to my friend to play on his CD player (when I am away and don’t need it)? Can I use the CD in my friends car when driving it (or being given a ride), or on his CD player when I am at his house? Can my father, brother, or son take the CD from the living room shelf and play it (since I always let them borrow my stuff without asking)?
Yes
If so, if my relative/friend — on his own initiative and without my knowledge or permission — makes a copy, he seemingly violated nothing as he has no contractual relationship or agreement with the producer.
As far as the rental agreement, if you had no idea that they would copy it, you’re probably right. The assumption of this discussion was, though, that it’s assur, or at least a big lack of mentchlichkeit, to get a copy of a recording which you didn’t pay for (assuming it’s still being offered for sale).
If Aderet is renting the CD to me for 20 years, that means I have a contractual rental relationship with Aderet for the next 20 years. If the CD stops working after 5 years, they must replace it. If not, it was all a joke and never a rental.
IIRC, it’s written in the agreement.
Since when is a rentel agreement binding if I dident sign it. if my landlord makes me read a lease without asking my sugnature then its not valid.
You made a kinyan (s’chirus) when you took the CD (meshicha/hagbaah). Why can’t the conditions be verbal (without a shtar)? we’re discussing m’talt’lin; you’re comparing karka.
besides i’m buying the tape from the retailer who at that point is the owner so how can the previous owner (the producer) rent it to me?
The store owner can’t sell you something he doesn’t own. If the transaction between the store and distributor is done correctly (I don’t know if it is), this should not be an issue.
gefen,
What’s a thread without some controversy 🙂
What’s FB?
some storeowners feel comfortable hiring “nisht a yid”
Are there yidden willing to do the same job for the same wages?
I’ve heard that when R’ Yaakov Kaminetzky was asked what his minhag is regarding walking to the chupah, he said his minhag is to do whatever his mechutanim want.
I find this highly distressing on two counts.
Firstly, it seems some posters consider this important enough to do research into it beforehand. Please tell me you are kidding.
Secondly, it seems some posters think it is ok to assert this much control over your children. This sounds heavily excessive and borderline abusive. Then you wonder why your son is abusing his wife.
If it’s important enough to break up a shidduch and make a huge machlokes out of, then it’s important enough to do research into, I guess.
Daas u seem to try and negate everything i say is this something personal or am just totally wrong in everything i say?
Chas v’shalom! Certainly nothing personal, and in this case, I wasn’t negating what you said, just noting that I’ve never observed it. That doesn’t mean such a minhag doesn’t exist, just that I personally don’t remember seeing it.
Now that I’ve explained that I’m not negating what you said about walking to the chuppah, does that mean I’ve negated what you said about me negating what you said? 🙂
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DY a copy is NOT valid since there is no guarantee that the copy is exactly the same as what is inside the wrapped product.
If the copy were to be different in a significant way, you could then return it for a full refund.
Breach of contract is g’neiva? If I sign a contract with you to rent an office for business purposes only, but instead I move in with the gantze mishpacha, is that g’neiva? (Just asking.)
I believe so.
Even the m’chirah b’t’nai, I was told by a big talmid chochom, had a “shiur” (exclusion) in the sale; it remains in the ownership of the producer regarding copying, and such use by the purchaser would be g’neiva.
You’re saying that the halacha for a rental is different than that for a t’nai, in that all poskim agree there is no need to refund the money for the remaining term of the rental, if the renter broke the terms of rental?
I can’t say all; I haven’t asked all of them. But certainly more.
re: side point; Sorry.
What is the reason we stand for the Kallah and not the Choson?
I don’t ever remember seeing that.
obviously when we looked for a shidduch we looked in the pool of people who were similar to us and had similar hashkafas.
Why would someone’s family minhug to walk to the chuppah differently than you want to, be a major difference in hashkafa? (Some people who have this minhug are otherwise not Chassidish in practice.) And what would happen if a particular shidduch were suitable for your child but the parents did have different hashkafas than you? You would sacrifice your child’s happiness to find mechutanim suitable for you? or to be able to walk her down with her father (as meaningful as that is to you)?
many times, things get way out of hand. agree?
No, and how dare you insult us by saying that! (Just kidding.)
I would guess that the store owner would refuse, but he might show you a copy of the agreement or explain it to you. As I posted earlier, at least one CD (one that I own) says: “Ask your retailer for a copy of the rental agreement, also see enclosed copy”.
You bring up an interesting point though, which I alluded to earlier, which is the the fact that the rental agreement is with the producer, but you’re getting it from a store. I do wonder how this affects the validity of the rental agreement, depending on the store owner’s agreement with the distributor, and the distributor’s with the producer.
Tums,
First of all, in most cases copying for your own ipod does not violate the agreement. Secondly, although that’s the producer’s only recourse, the renter, by violating the agreement, was oiver on g’neiva (using the producer’s property in a way which he never allowed).
Your point is one of the things gained by rental vs t’nai: in a t’nai, some poskim (not all) maintained that the producer would have to refund the money (and since he has no intention to, the whole t’nai is invalid). Others hold that since the purchaser broke the t’nai, the money need not be returned.
Meanwhile, enjoy your coffee, and if you ever figure out that it was treif, you can always do teshuva.
Aries,
Whether or not the producers of Jewish music are honest in their own business dealings does not affect whether or not the rental agreement works or not. It’s really an irrelevant point. Besides, I have no reason to suspect them more than anybody else.
Shwekey can charge a thousand dollars to rent a CD for one day if he wants. He has absolutely no requirement to fit into Blockbuster’s price structure; you can choose not to rent it if you wish. If he did so, of course, he wouldn’t make any money, but that’s his problem. In fact, though, if you read the rental agreement, the terms are such that if you don’t copy it, the CD will actually remain in your possesion in perpetuity (the terms for return are structured as to make it virtually impossible to ever come to fruition).
I already made my argument that the buyer is aware that there’s a rental and that the producer is makpid on copying, and the consumer can choose to see the agreement if he wants.
There are some possible arguments to question the validity of the rental, but I haven’t yet seen them brought up here.
Daas,
Do you disagree with what I maintain is the maximum recourse available to the producer under halacha if the “renter” violates the terms of the agreement? (If so, specifically on what halachic basis?)
Yes. A rental has a return involved, the agreement is that it must be returned if copied.
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If the other side had a strong minhug the other way, I highly doubt we would have seen eye to eye on other things, and I highly doubt that the shidduch would have worked out to begin with. The kids were matim to each other for a good reason.
Unfortunately, many fights, and broken marriages, have been caused by such thinking. I would hope (and expect) that your attitude is only theoretical, and that if such a situation would ever arise, you would be above it.
I’m lucky that the bracha specifies only those that refrain from talking during davening. If it also mentioned people who talk during laining, then I’d be out of luck (as I talk during laining all the time).
While you’re laining?
Small people discuss..
Welcome to the discussion… 🙂
I held the havdalah candle very high. My hubby is 5’7″.
Maybe had you not held it high, he would have been 5’2″ 🙂
What’s the contradiction? Some people are out of work while others are not and can afford vacations. What is so difficult about this?
I suppose it’s difficult for some who are out of work.
observanteen,
You can use a computerized spell-check.
i think chayav either needs attention or just thinks s/he is being cute. whatever it is – if we keep playing into this, it will just continue.
So if he needs attention, maybe we should give it to him. There are far worse things that someone could do for attention.
Chayav? You’re not exactly sticking to the rules of the game….
There are no rules.
And Daas: I don’t get it. Where does Monah Rosenblum come into the picture???
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Among other reasons, because you just opened a new screen name.
Chayav started his post with the word “guys”. Is that girltalk? He can’t even spell “seminary” correctly!
Where did he ever spell seminary incorrectly?
I still don’t see what the issue here is. If you think I did something wrong, just come out and say it.
We all think you must have done something wrong, we’re just trying to figure out what. 🙂 Please note the smiley. I’m joking. 🙂
Where I daven, none.
Not even Av Harachamim?
Get out before it’s too late.
🙂
my divorced parents would have felt uncomfortable walking down together
I’ve heard that some people have an issue with a divorced “couple” walking the chosson or kallah to the chupah; some kind of negative segulah. I don’t know much about it, though.
As for my kids, I’m going to do whatever makes them happy. If they want me to walk them down with Eeees, I’ll happily do it. If they want me to walk them down with their future father-in-law, I’ll happily do that too. It’s their big day, not mine, and their wishes should be respected.
You have a great attitude. The problem arises when the mechutanim have a different idea than either the other set or the kids. I hope you don’t encounter that.
Well, I think we can all agree that a condition to give your firstborn is silly
As would be a condition to hand over all of your real estate holdings (or even some).