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There are two posts under the same name, from different posters.
Wolf,
You forgot the “The”. 🙂
metrodriver,
Excellent point.
There is, though, a difference between lack of ehrlichkeit (or thoughtfulness) and outright thievery.
If at the end of the day the can’t force them, how do they pressure them?
I’m told that many botei din will refuse outright to pasken din, and will tell the ba’alei din that if they refuse p’shara, they can go elsewhere.
The BBC will today screen remarkable footage of penguins flying as part of its new natural history series, Miracles of Evolution.
I think this belongs in the oxymoron thread. (Okay, all you rationalists, jump all over me.)
Basket of radishes,
That, and ????.
r-b,
Me; I’m trying to act like R’ Akiva Eiger in the famous story in which he spilled wine to make a guest (who had spilled wine) feel better. 🙂
(Really was me, though.)
I’d prefer the email.
EDITED
Homeowner,
My point is that I thought you misrepresented shlishi’s approach as being beyond halacha.
Undoubtedly, one who is not capable should not pasken on his own. But we are entitled to express our halachic opinions in the CR and ask if we don’t have an opinion.(Anyone who follows through IRL on something he exclusively saw here is a fool.)
As far as the old lady, I am convinced she is a horrible bully.
I’m actually not convinced of anything, because we only hear one side of the story in these cases. But given the story as presented, yes, she sounds like a horrible bully, and yes, one should have the fortitude to stand up to that, but if it were my wife and daughter, (or me in an equivalent situation,) I would hope for the sake of middos and chinuch we would give in, despite not being intimidated.
Thanks for your response.
pba,
Are your hashkofos, even if exaggerated, basically real, or totally made up?
An example which comes to mind is that the lady whose daughter’s seat was stolen should have thrown the alteh bubby, who stole the seat, down the steps. Obviously this was exaggerated, but did you really feel that she should not have been accommodating despite the bubby’s rudeness? (If you don’t mind, please answer this one seriously.)
I don’t know, I’ll ask, ??”?, but I suppose when the ??????, who are very ????? ?”?, strongly recommend a ????, most people will agree.
Are you taller than your Shvigger?
Which reminds me, what’s the difference between in-laws and outlaws?
Outlaws are wanted.
Daas Yochid- You know what he mnent to say
Yes, I was kidding. I won’t make a joke about mnent.
Chadash asur min ha torah.
Somehow, I doubt the men in ??? wore trousers and shirts and jackets with lapels.
It seems that the ??”? understands his ????? like the ??”? that there is no issue of ?????? at all regarding ????, and that the idea of ????? ?????? giving the ??? of ??? doesn’t apply to ????. This answers the ???? ?????’s ?????, which is what I think was bothering you, pba (it bothered me until I saw the ??”?.)
metrodriver,
Not necessarily; A/C problems can be tough to diagnose and sometimes there are multiple leaks.
shlishi,
I’m not associated with any ?”?, but I’m told that ?????? put extreme pressure on the ???? ??? to come to a ???? unless the case has a totally obvious ???. I don’t know if they can technically force them; I would think you’re right that they can’t.
Chofetz Chaim guys don’t wear white shorts because the yeshiva believes that growth should be within– that chizonios takes away from true growth.
Most yeshivaleit don’t wear white shorts. (At least not that are visible.)
those redundencies r really good!
How about criminal lawyer?
What law?
shlishi,
If the halacha is unclear, it would make a difference, because of ?????? ?????. So if for example, you brought the mechanic to a ??? ???? about the rotors, and the mechanic claimed that normal procedure is to try cleaning the rotors as the preliminary measure, and you brought some sort of evidence otherwise and the ?????? were uncertain about his claim, had you paid, they wouldn’t obligate him to repay you, but OTOH, had you not yet paid, they wouldn’t obligate you to pay (although in reality they would probably insist on a ????).
I’m not sure how whether or not you have your car back would impact anything; there’s no question that it’s yours anyhow.
If the mechanic overcharged for the parts, (say for example, ona’ah), I would think that it would be the mechanic’s obligation to take it out!
I once asked a shaila: If I order something at a certain price and it’s delivered but invoiced at a higher price, can I keep it and pay the lower price?
I was told no, because ????? ???? is wrong on the part of the seller, but unenforceable on the part of the buyer. However, I can tell them that they have to come pick it up; I have no obligation to send it back (but, of course, I can’t use it).
The variable in the case of a mechanic is that within a certain price range, it can be assumed that the buyer would have agreed, because he definitely needs tires. I suppose each case would have to be evaluated individually.
There’s a story about R’ Dessler ZT”L that he told everyone he met that he had quit smoking. When asked why, he responded that if he didn’t tell people, he might lose his resolve, but this way, he’d be too embarrassed to be seen smoking.
msseeker,
I agree, (and I thank the OP and yourself for the ????,) but there’s more room for leeway here than in real life, for example, to give advice, mussar or even chizuk.
Mods,does this go against any rules?
I guess not. 🙂
Hatzlocha, and ??? to Pashuteh Yid.
Try writing a piece of interest and submitting to Mishpacha or Ami.
you either hire it, are married to it
Isn’t that the same thing? 😉
r-b,
Tbt beat me to it. I will say though, that I agree more with his first point than his second, because moderation is not perfect; some things have gotten through only to be subsequently removed.
Rabbi Menachem Friedman. He is the Rav of the Aguda of E. 23rd.
You can call him and ask him, his number is in the phonebook.
Did he also approve of his name being posted in a public forum in connection with this issue?
Homeowner,
Not fair. In that particular circumstance, even if you or I disagree with him, shlishi feels that halacha allows for the consequential damage cause by covering the sign. He does not advocate ignoring halacha, or hold that it is generally permissible to damage another person’s property.
r-b,
You might have misunderstood me (maybe I wasn’t clear), so I’ll restate.
If it took the mechanic more time than he legitimately thought, or the part cost more than he legitimately thought, or the part required (as in shlishi’s tires) was more expensive than than the mechanic had thought, then the mechanic CAN charge the difference. This is only if it’s reasonable to assume that the customer would have agreed had he been quoted this price to begin with. (IMHO, it still would be proper to ask the customer first, but OTOH it’s not always easy for the mechanic to reach the customer.)
If the mechanic just decided to make more profit, then he CANNOT charge more than he originally stated. (????? ????).
These ????? are still somewhat complicated, because ????? ???? only gives limited recourse to the customer; he can’t insist in ?”? that it be done at the original price if he was informed before the work was done.
This is based on a brief conversation with a ?”? who knows these ????? well, limited to my understanding.
Sorry, r-b, I don’t understand what you’re saying.
That would be akin to pen-palling. The mods would have to stop it.
You do have a point in general, but there is a significant difference between the CR and pen pal communication; for the most part, even if gender is evident, we don’t know who the person is.
“I have the world’s largest collection of seashells. I keep it scattered on all the beaches of the world… perhaps you’ve seen it.”
— Steven Wright
The Wolf
Wolf, do you remember any of his other classic one liners? Brings back memories…
Here are some which I remember.
I got poison ivy on my brain. I could only scratch it by thinking about sandpaper.
I lost my button hole.
If you put instant coffee in the microwave, do you go back in time?
Just the other day I… No, that wasn’t me.
I bought batteries, but they weren’t included, so I had to buy them again.
I bought powdered water, but I didn’t know what to add.
(I did not go off topic. I’m collecting Steven Wright jokes.) 🙂
??? ??? ???? ???? 🙂
???? ??????? ??? ????
Feif Un,
Standard procedure for a mechanic is to do the job anyhow even if the price is a bit more than quoted (as long as there was a legitimate reason that the price quoted isn’t correct – he can’t just arbitrarily raise it).
Oh, and my advice is, if he’s generally a good, honest, and reasonable mechanic, don’t quibble even if you’re right (although you could nicely discuss a discount on the rotor cleaning since it was not needed).
Excellent question, shlishi, to which I don’t know the answer. Try sending it to one or more of the email Choshen Mishpat services, and kindly share the results. I know a mumcheh in C.M.; I’ll try to ask, and share the answer (but not to be relied on for halacha l’meisa, of course).
I’ll also take my own guess first; that it depends on what normal practice is, as well as (in the first case) whether the maintenance was required anyhow.
IOW, for the first shaila, the answer might depend on:
1) If standard procedure is to clean the rotors as a first response. If so, since a mechanic is not a navi, he may be entitled to compensation, and,
2) if the rotors needed cleaning anyway, that might be an additional factor.
For the second shaila, it probably depends on whether most consumers would assume that the mechanic would do the more expensive job without asking, if the difference is not great. Besides, if you needed the more expensive tires, you would have agreed anyhow.
I think he still should have called you, and possibly, if it was his error, honored the cheaper price anyway, but I don’t know if there’s any recourse.
I also dont believe in this business where they charge thousands of dollars!!! do these people think that people are growing money in the garden???
I don’t think that’s fair. Do you have any ides how much time they spend on shidduchim? Are they not entitled to make a parnassa? There’s nothing wrong with your question; you’re entitled to look for a less expensive shadchan if you want, but not to demean those working hard to set up Jewish homes who are fully entitled to make a living.
I have a great idea; spend more time in the CR! 🙂
Do you have this problem when in or out of the superman outfit?
??? ?????? ????: ?????? ????? ????
????? ???? ??? ?’ – ????? ???
?”? ????
I think her question was, “Are you also happy and grateful for cheery Fed Ex guys just as I am?”.
Charlie,
There’s a difference, in theory, between your first two examples and your third.
It is always, and unequivocally, an obligation to do mitzvos and not rely on Divine help at the expense of human effort.
For panassah and health and such, someone on a high enough level should rely on Divine help to the exclusion of human effort (as an example, Yosef with the sar hamashkim).
I doubt that there is anyone on that level in our generation.
Probably, unless it says “non transferable”.
Sorry for the useless guess 🙂
R-b,
No problem, I never meant to fool anyone.
women who need to say kaddish
Are you trying to start another controversy here? 🙂