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Mods: can you please tell me what good is coming out of dragging this thread out for soooooooooo long???
I’m not a mod, but it’s pretty obvious; the more people stay on, the more likely people like the good folks at Ohel Mental Health Professionals will feel it worthwhile to advertise.
It would definitely make something think she wasn’t sitting in that chair, no?
Now *that* is hairsplitting!
would definitely make something think
you mean as opposed to a human being?
And so is that!
🙂
Wolf,
I think the gist of what msseeker is saying is that by now, most non-Jews who are not anti-Semitic have accepted that although the paper made a mistake, they’ve apologized, and are ready to move on, so why can’t we Jews also believe that no harm was intended, accept their acknowledgement of poor judgement, and move on.
C’mon, you’re splitting that hair so thin that there’s barely anything there.
I don’t think it’s as fine a distinction as you claim, and I again assert that seeing that picture would not make anyone specifically think that she wasn’t there. It wasn’t a senate session or UN meeting with a senator or delegate’s name plate in front of an empty chair.
Besides, I learn a lot of gemara with meforshim, so I’m allowed to split hairs! 🙂
GAW,
Good question. Since the question was what they deserve, I would say current normal. B”H most are willing to live at a standard below that, and unfortunately, many are forced to live at standards considerably lower than that.
Since what we’re talking about is subjective, I’ll give an example.
Essentially, someone involved in avodas hakodesh should receive our utmost respect, and deserve to dive a Lexus. However, this would be distasteful, because someone in avodas hakodesh is expected to be above such pursuit of gashmius.
Wouldn’t it be nice, though, if our klei kodesh were able to drive a relatively late model, respectable looking vehicle, to fit his family in comfort, and not be busy every week at the mechanic?
Unfortunately, though, too many must drive an old, beat up jalopy with barely enough room, and constantly getting it repaired just to get it into working order.
Unfrtunately
This is getting worse and worse!!! Don’t you have anything else to talk about??????
Nice weather we’re having today!
She is in the position that she is in, and out of respect for her authority, should not have been omitted out of some misguided sense of tznius in this case. JMO
Why should that newspaper follow your guidelines for tznius? It makes a whole lot more sense for them to follow their own guidelines, and that of their readership.
dy
it’s not that people would think that there are no powerful women; it’s that they think that we are suppressing that fact, as a reflection of our views on women.
You’re right, in a sense (that it allowed people to claim that these are our views of women, although that claim was made out of ignorance) but I was addressing those who feel the paper acted dishonestly. As far as those who feel that the paper acted stupidly, I am in agreement, as I’ve mentioned.
The issue is that they lied about the fact that Hillary Clinton and Audrey Tomason were there
I disagree. Omission of a fact is not a lie (unless a strong inference could be made, which is doubtful in this case).
You say that “people viewing the photo would have believed that they weren’t in the room”, which is not true; they merely might not have known that they were not in the room, which is completely different. Besides, their normal readership knows that all pictures of women are removed.
To all those who feel that the paper was guilty of lying and dishonesty, I ask; do you really think anyone fell for it, and thinks there are no women in powerful positions today?
I personally prefer to learn at the table; I don’t use my shtender, (although it’s possible that if I had a tabletop shtender, I would use it). So my first recommendation is to make sure he actually would use it, or buy from a store with a good return policy.
When I do use a shtender (on occasion in a beis medrash), I prefer a solid wood one with a good foot rest. I don’t enjoy the pressed wood adjustable top model, although it has adjustable height as well as angle, so some do prefer it. I once received one as a gift, but it didn’t hold up well (although it’s possible that they are now better made).
Your best option is to buy from a store with many models available so that if he indeed wants one, he can always exchange for the model he wants. If the store has a good money-back return policy, but a more expensive model (depending on your budget, of course), because otherwise he might feel awkward exchanging for a better one.
GAW,
I wasn’t agreeing with ofcourse’s rant, I was saying that it was unrelated to the OP.
I agree with your post, although certainly some take their gashmius to a higher level than a/c.
I think kollel yungerleit and rabbaim deserve to live at a normal standard and in most cases are willing to live more frugally than most.
What about Rebbetzin Jungreis?
I heard that she gives a monthly shiur in a shul near where she lives, and only women are invited.
Her speeches to a mixed crowd are for kiruv purposes; I’m sure she received a p’sak.
RSZA paskened that classical music is permitted during sefirat haomer; my rav agrees.
Does your rav also agree to R’ Shlomo Zalman’s reluctance to apply this heter other than in a sha’as had’chak?
R’ Shlomo Zalman’s opinion is recorded in Halichos Shlomo, Moadim, 11th perek, 14, D’var Halachah 22. However, in Orchos Halacha 54, it is stipulated that this heter should only be utilized in case of need.
Rav Belsky shlita paskins that Capella is not permitted during availus, 3 weeks or sefira. That applies if one is listening for musical enjoyment.
It’s not so simple; it depends on the type of recording.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/sefira-music/page/2#post-86593
y.p,
I think it’s quite reasonable to assume that the Washington Post would not have retracted had they not realized that they were definitely wrong.
Prilosec (but don’t tell anyone – it’s a secret!) 🙂
GAW,
I was referring to ofcourse’s statement, “The couples managed on their own with much less needs.“, implying that today’s young couples are spoiled.
?????? ????? ?’ ???’ ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ???, ??? ?’ ?????? ?????? ???????? ?? ???? ??????, ??? ???????? ??? ???? ??? ????. ?????? ????? ???? ????. ?? ??? ???????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???????. ???? ?? ?? ??? ?’ ??’ ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????????
y.p,
The second reader, Don, was agreeing with what the first one said. This was in the category of the qualification “but…”.
It also follows that man is only worthy of ???? ???? ?? if he is properly engaged in “?????? ????????”, not for selfish purposes.
???? ?? ?? ??? ?’ ??’ ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????????
So it’s not “pathetic”.
???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ????, ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?????
This is the correct version, sorry about the earlier typo.
Thanks
y.p,
GAW,
There was nothing offensive about the way you disagreed with me, I’m just trying to figure out what it is we’re disagreeing on. When I wrote “b’nichusa”, I was describing my tone, not giving mussar.
I wasn’t saying that the shidduch crises has nothing to do with the OP (although it really doesn’t), I was saying that the spoiled young adults crises is unrelated.
The shidduch crises is mostly unrelated, because the boys are, for the most part getting married, and almost [:)] every time a boy gets married, a girl does as well.
In theory, financial considerations might shift the number of “leftover” girls more heavily to the kollel families, but the number of unmarried girls stays essentially the same. I also don’t know if that shift is factual or theoretical.
As far as the freezer idea, sure there are many boys who would learn in BMG no matter what, but many would violate the freezer rules if they were too restrictive, and some boys would go elsewhere (and rumor has it that BMG wants high enrollment). I’m curious what AZ has to say about this idea.
What’s the difference between keeping the freezer for younger girls 9your fist idea) and opening it for older ones (your second idea)?
DY: Why not? As per an idea, how aboput implement the Freezer for boys for a year (or two), unless they go out with girls older than they are.
A good idea in theory, but the bochurim wouldn’t stand for being limited for such a long period of time.
As per the assertion, that was made by “ofcourse”.
What did you call me incorrect about? (b’nichusa)
It was a violation of journalistic standards. It was a violation of honesty. It was a violation of truth.
They could have not run the photo. They could have edited the photo and informed their readers that the photo was edited. They did neither. They violated far more than just “common sense.”
The Wolf
It was not a violation of truthfulness and honesty because the intent and effect was not to fool anyone. As far as journalistic standards, they are entitled to define that for themselves (although it was a mistake to do so the way they did it in this case.)
I fully agree that they could have and should have left the picture out. I’m not sure a disclaimer would have completely shielded them from criticism.
dy
because it was a government document/photo that had stipulations and limitations regarding its distribution attached to it.
Which might be perfectly legal to doctor; that’s what we’re discussing.
GAW,
The way I actually heard it is that humanity sunk to the level of arur C’na’an.
I don’t think the fully developed idea should be in print; v’hameivin yovin.
Of course, since I can’t quote a source, anyone is free to question the accuracy and veracity of the quote, but it’s worth contemplating.
I’m curious what the Ralbag says on the passuk of “vidavak B’Ishto”.
???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ?????, ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?????
In other word, because he needs her so much.
GAW,
I was not c”v saying to throw out the halacha, I was merely suggesting a possible reason why the RS”O arranged things this way. The basic idea which I expressed about avdus is something which I heard in the name of a gadol (whose name I won’t mention because I can’t confirm the statement).
The Ralba”g is not saying that the relationship between man and wife (as he describes it) is a halacha, it’s a law of (human) nature.
I wasn’t saying the picture was classified, I was comparing it to that category of documents that has special restrictions as per the government, and cannot be compared, as Pacman suggests, so readily with a standard copyright.
Why should it be compared with classified documents?
To those who suggest that this was a violation of lifnei iver or g’neivas daas or any other issur, I suggest that you either learn through those sugyas (or, in regular English, research those topics), or speak to a talmid chacham who has before making such a pronouncement.
It was a violation of common sense, but nothing else.
To suggest that the publication was trying to mislead anyone to believe that Mrs. Clinton wasn’t present is foolish. Their readers know that no pictures of women are ever shown, and those who don’t normally read that newspaper know that she was there, having seen the original photograph!
y.p,
I would imagine (although I’m not a copyright lawyer either) that “classified” refers to “secret” documents. This photo surely doesn’t fit into that category.
As far as airplane minyanim, that’s always been a concern of mine, although I’ve never heard of a specific rov who addressed it.
Maybe a more frequent flyer than I can answer this question, though: can a minyan be arranged on an airplane with the cooperation of airline personnel so that it doesn’t disrupt other passengers?
And yes, they could unilaterally implement something, just like they have the Freezer, and everyone else will have no choice but to follow.
The freezer, from a mathematical perspective, actually exacerbates the problem. What could BMG possibly implement (other than unplugging the freezer) to alleviate the problem? They’re not in a position to either force boys to marry earlier or girls to marry later.
What statement of mine indicates that I disagree with your assertion that poorer girls, from kollel families, are less likely to get married? While we’re at it, do you have any evidence of this? (Yes, I know those two points seem contradictory, but I haven’t yet really consider it from that perspective.)
mbachur,
No, and no. I’m curious what led you to that idea, though.
Wolf,
Great post. I have one point to make though; nobody HAS to do anything. It’s a free forum (subject to moderation) and one is entitled to state an opinion without backing it up. For the intelligent reader, with whom you, an intelligent poster, should be concerned, the unsubstantiated opinion means little.
This is my opinion. 🙂
This is my opinion as well. No one here is limited to some ill-defined official Rules of Argumentation. This is a DISCUSSION forum.
Ofcourse,
That’s not what the OP was referring to. The OP was talking about the intrinsic unsustainability of the “system”. You are bemoaning the abuse of the system. Those are two separate discussions.
Apparently, considering the amount of news sources reporting the incident and the newspaper’s own apology to the Whitehouse, there WAS something wrong with it. I’m not sure where you looked to think otherwise.
You’re confusing cause and effect. The newspaper didn’t apologize because there was something wrong, it apologized because the story was reported negatively in so many news sources.
The newspaper did actually do something wrong; they didn’t anticipate the reaction.
are we really turning out better kids with all these rules? in our day there was no question about fathers coming to graduations and kids going off the derech were a tiny percentage of kids. now we are so frum fathers can’t see their daughters graduate but all we hear about is kids at risk. maybe the schools need to reevaluate some of these newer policies.
So that’s what’s causing kids at risk! Fathers not going to graduations!
I found a year-old thread on this. I had seen this p’sak from R’ Belsky, which Feif Un quotes here, but didn’t know where to find it; I’ll post the link.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/sefira-music/page/2#post-86593
I believe mbachur is referring to the teshuva which was quoted in this related thread:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/no-more-music
According to the logic of the OP, nobody would ever learn full-time, because everyone would need to work to support the coming generation’s learning. Since that next generation, for who’s sake the previous generation sacrificed its learning, would need to do the same, this generation might as well learn full time!
ZachKessin,
The fact that we do hishtadlus does not mean that we live as if there is no Ribono Shel Olam, c”v. Expecting manna to descend from heaven (nowadays) to obviate the need to prepare dinner is a far cry from not feeling the need to sacrifice one’s learning to “ensure” enough money to support future generations.
apushatayid,
Look at perek gimmel, pasuk tes-zayin and chof (Mossad Harav Kook – pg. samech gimmel – samech daled.
The term he uses is “lo hushg’chah”, which popa translated as “did not care as much”. I think the true meaning becomes obscured with that translation.
The part of this discussion which disturbs me the most is the contention that somehow the rishonim were more influenced in their thinking by contemporary thought than we are. The opposite is of course true. I think, however, that the reality we live with forces us to live differently than the ideal (as HKB”H created the world).
As an example, the idea of “avdus” is completely anathema to us and is wholly inconsistent with our sense of fairness. Yet, the Torah clearly believes in it.
I think as our generations continue, the human condition deteriorates, so that it is indeed inappropriate; the difference in level between classes becomes insufficient to support “avdus”. As well, the “superior” class is unable to treat the “lower” class in the proper manner, and is therefore unworthy of the privilege.
This idea also applies to our discussion. Although the role of woman was meant to be as “ezer” to man (and still is, although in a different, less literal sense), the practical manifestation of this in the manner described by Ralba”g is only appropriate when man deserves it, and when woman appreciates her role as not being degrading inasmuch as this was the purpose of her creation. Both of these factors do not apply today; the first because man is unworthy, and the second because of contemporary societal norms which have affected us.
Hence, popa’s rebbeim instruct him, and rightfully so, to teat his wife as an equal.
Ralba”g seems to attribute woman’s inferior “sechel” not to lesser potential, but rather to her inability to develop it due to her preoccupation carrying out her tasks as “ezer”. This is wholly consistent with the high level of intelligence and education found in today’s women (which is an additional reason in and of itself for the relationship between man and woman to have changed).
I agree. It’s not as if they chose this specific picture.
Instead of looking for a Rav who will be lenient upon whom to hang your hat, why not look for a Rav whom you respect and to whom you can ask various sha’ailos that come up?
The Wolf
Great point.
(I was going to thank you for the support, but then I noticed the name of this thread, and I don’t do puns.)
Is that a paradox?
(I know, you could claim not and say you only would have used that terminology had it not been a pun. But I wouldn’t have to believe you.)
One point which I must add; someone who devotes his life to avodas Hashem is investing in the spiritual well-being of his future generations. This cannot be taken away from him; financial wealth can.
Mods, I think it’s it’s time to change pba’s subtitle back, since he’s on target on this one.
getzel1 and am yisrael chai,
You both have good points. I didn’t make them up, though.
Getzel1, thanks for all the laughs.