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By s’chirus, you either have prior agreement, or the original Ratzon of the Socher to pay. Here, it seems that is not the case.
The parents are not claiming that they thought it was a free shadchanus.
Besides, even when family friends make a shidduch just as a chessed (which doesn’t seem to be the case here), shadchanus is expected, albeit maybe on a different scale.
I don’t get any of this.
What’s not to get? These are not ehrliche people!
You, who are ehrlich, would of course treat he shadchan with the proper kavod!
As a mother was heard yelling at her child:
I have two words for you – Be Have!
There are literally tears in my eyes from reading about parents willing to sacrifice their children for money. I usually have a logical response to a viewpoint which I don’t agree with, but I am at a loss here.
How someone could even think of comparing an early childhood experience among warm, Yiddishe moros and rebbeim to secular teachers (as nice as they may be) is beyond me – I guess my sense of Yiddishe values is just very different than theirs.
There’s a community (in the NY area) of immigrants who came from a country with little Jewish education. The rabbonim in that community are tearing their hair out because many otherwise shomrei mitzvos don’t understand the value of sending their children to yeshiva and Bais Yaakov. The public schools are free, (and in that neighborhood are high quality) so they spend their money on fancy houses, cars and vacations instead of investing it in their children.
The older children are already intermarrying, and the younger ones are sadly on the way.
Yes, Tov li Toras picha mei’alfei zahav vakesef… not just a song – a way of life.
y.p.,
Went to the “right” yeshivos, a masmid, a lamdan, self confident, good midos, from a chashuva mishpacha. Pretty much in that order.
haifagirl,
We can always count on you for grammatical accuracy.
BTW, it’s not just ???; as was pointed out, so is ?? ????. Also, we have ???? ??, we have ???? ????, and ????? ????? ?? (the OP did mention the entire ???”?). The ????? which are ???? ???? also are in second person (e.g. ???? ????).
Come to think of it, the phrase ???? ??? is interesting.
There is a “small” change to medicare, half a trilion dollars riped out
They won’t need the money, since they plan on having fewer old people around.
I read in the news that a Goy who is 51 just got married to a 16 y.o. girl.
There’s a reason it was in the news. ?
,em>Can one assume a chumra for oneself if he feels it will help enhance his Torah observance?
Yes. If it will lead to yuhara, then by definition, it’s not an enhancement of his Torah observance.
Eruvim is a tractate in the Oral Law.
Absolutely. I meant most contemporary eruvin.
And the overwhelming majority of poskim permit a public eruv under at least some circumstances.
If you mean contemporary eruvin, I agree, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a kula. There is legitimate place for utilizing a kula under some circumstances.
I agree with real-joseph. (Sorry, r-b 😉
72 – bold is as follows:
<strong>I'm already retired so I'd give it all to DaasYochid!</strong>results in:
I’m rich!
(actually,
I’m alredy retired so I’d give it all to DaasYochid!)
I *really* find it hard to believe that you think that there is something wrong with specifying fees for services up front.
Nothing wrong, just uncomfortable when it involves shidduchim.
Is there a prevailing norm on either that is firmly established? I’m not so certain that there is.
There’s probably a range, and a beis din can probably only enforce the lower end of the range (as long as it’s not very atypical).
As far as time of payment, Baal Boose might be right, and if there’s no firmly established minhag, they parents can probably choose the later date, but I’m sure there’s no later date expected
than the marriage.
Are there different shittas as to when shkia is?
No. Anyone can look at the horizon and see when the sun sets.
That’s if you go according to the Gaonim, who consider “shkiah” the setting of the actual sphere of the sun.
Rabbeinu Tam, however, considers “shkiah” to be when the last rays of the sun “set” (also called “shkiah shniyah”).
Since many follow R”T’s shittah (some Chassidim), one shul can be davening Mincha while another is davening Ma’ariv.
There is no teshuva which doesn’t help. True, the more teshuva a person does, the better off he is, but even a little bit helps a lot.
How do I become a moderator?
there will be a small penalty for those who do not enroll
Wasn’t that declared unconstitutional (subject to appeal)? I understand that if that part doesn’t hold up, there’s no way the system can pay for itself and we’ll end up with a system like they have in Canada (which many wouldn’t mind, and many would).
It was gaw’s (thoughtful) suggestion.
I’m in favor of a young adult learning the value of hard work and of money. I am also petrified of the prospect of the money being spent inappropriately. Mostly, I’m afraid of electronic devices with the ability to access inappropriate media. I also think that spending on other luxuries can be harmful. The stories mentioned by some posters obviously don’t fit into either of these categories.
For a boy, of course, ideally he should be such a masmid that he has no time for it, but otherwise (most cases), a teen could earn money and spend it with parental supervision, or save it, as appropriate.
Ofcourse,
Save the emails. These sound like slippery people.
Wolf,
When no specific agreement is made between two parties, the halacha is that minhag hamakom prevails. That would apply to both the rate, and the expected date of payment.
gaw,
It makes sense that it wouldn’t be different than any other s’chirus. If you hire a secretary to work for you (and she does), could you exempt yourself from paying her because no kinyan was made in a cheifetz?
Then it’s an issue with the provider (you don’t know me, AFAIK).
If you could, please change r-b’s subtitle back – I’m convinced that it’s a similar issue, and he seems pretty disturbed by it.
How many is a bunch? If it was just a couple it might have been me (two around April Fool’s day).
Why? I believe even Bais Din would not say so.
In conversations with someone familiar with Choshen Mishpat, it’s clear that shadchanus is like any other profession and is entitled to compensation, and can have a beis din enforce that.
The reason I differentiate between shadchanus and other work is because of the emotional aspect of it; people feel that shadchanim should really be doing it for the mitzvah, and are put off by financial talk (although they shouldn’t be).
I think “on the ball” has the best attitude here.
I agree.
You’d be surprised… I *do* ask professionals how much they charge before they start work — including plumbers.
Sure you do – because they don’t tell you otherwise! I think you’re smart for doing so (I’m not surprised), I just don’t think it’s his obligation to tell you.
On the contrary, it makes her look professional.
Some people don’t like that in a shadchan and it’s her prerogative to decide
what does “when the Shidduch is made” mean?
Generally, engagement.
The same applies to “going rate.”
They can determine that themselves.
I mentioned while the Shidduch was ongoing, that when Shidduchim are made, I expect the going rate.
I don’t think you even needed to do that (but if the rate would need to be discussed, it should have been done before the shidduch began).
Interesting. I use an internet provider which employs a proxy as a filter. I wonder if anyone using the same company comes up under the same IP.
Wolf,
When a plumber comes to your house to fix your leaky sink, I know he can’t know what the problem is before he looks at it, but does he tell you his rate structure first? As long as he charges fairly, he doesn’t have to. Neither does a shadchan, unless she plans on charging more than the going rate. It’s also not a good idea to, because it makes her come across as greedy (I know it’s not logical, but that’s human nature).
btw i dont like teenagers making their own money too much because some of them think they could spend it as they wish, without any approval from their parents
Interesting point that might make a good thread. I’d have to think about it.
I’ve thought about it, and I agree, unless the money is put away for the future.
However, that doesn’t mean there aren’t exceptions.
It’s perfectly normal – the gemara says that repeated aveiros make it seem almost muttar.
If you’re posting this sincere attempt here, you’re not a rasha.
As far as ideas, it depends on the aveira, but the first thing that must be done is, of course, to stop doing the aveira (easier said than done) and the way to start is to put yourself in a position where the yetzer hara is blocked. For example, if a student had a yetzer hara to cheat on a test, he should try to avoid the problem by making sure not to sit next to the stronger students.
You should also know that the fact that you feel bad about not feeling bad is itself very precious to the Ribono Shel Olam.
As far as I know, they owe you the going rate for shadchanus al pi din.
I don’t know how you want to proceed, but the option of a din Torah is available to you. Ask a rov proficient in Choshen Mishpat.
It’s then your personal decision whether or not you wish to proceed. Obviously, you should first communicate openly with the parents.
I think speaking to the kids is, at best, a last resort. It could really lead to sholom bayis problems. (Although not paying the shadchan can too.)
happiest,
If a particular website is an issue, you should get a filter to block it.
Of course, discuss your situation with your doctor.
Good luck!
At this point, it’s just become fun for some of us.
The underlying fascination, though, is the seeming incongruity of someone espousing a right-wing (religion oriented) worldview, on, of all places, the internet, and, in addition, using (apparently) less than straightforward methods.
Those who disagree with him use his (perceived) hypocrisy to discredit his opinions. Those who agree with him are somewhat embarrassed that he “represents” their views.
Some of us kind of get a kick out of it, but I think that is the underlying issue. I don’t blame someone for taking offense at being accused of being just another of his screen names; although this is an anonymous forum, everyone wants to feel that their views are fairly represented as their own.
r-b,
I think you’ll just have to accept that you’re the real-joseph, and the others are all fake!
Health,
My comparison between a young girl getting married and a large age differential is quite valid, as is the story I mentioned. I’m making the point that rabbonim, who pasken everything according to S.A., will not advise one to enter into an ill advised marriage, despite p’ru ur’vu and lasheves.
If based on individual personalities, a particular 40 year old man is suitable for a 20 year old woman, I don’t see anything wrong with them getting married. But that would be highly unusual, since they’re from a different generation.
Standard advice from various gedolim is not to marry someone more than ten years apart (although I imagine that it expands a bit as they get older).
At least 5 Josephs have already posted on this thread.
That makes six.
I second a mamin; Town Appliance has great customer service and great expertise as well. I know people who have ordered from them without ever seeing the apliance, just on their recommendation, and have always been satisfied. Drimmer’s might be great too, I just don’t have experience with them.
Whether not relying on an eruv is a chumra, or relying on it is a kula, is debatable. (There have already been extensive discussions about this in the CR.)
The old plan was if you are poor you die.
The new plan is you die.
I disagree.
The old plan was the doctor decides when it’s time for you to die.
The new plan is the government decides when it’s time for you to die.
r-b,
You must have read my mind; I posted my last post before I saw yours!
when i typed in real-brisker to check your profile I found the header saying “see I told you so”
That’s my fault. I originally opened under the name real-brisker to show that a SN can be duplicated, and then changed it at r-b’s request (I generally do not use any other screen names, this was a demo).
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/i-feel-guity#post-229550
Besides the fact that real-brisker has a very different style than Joseph, I don’t ever recall Joseph protesting so vehemently (except when it wasn’t him, like in the HaleiVi case).
I am just being realistic; a 27 year old girl will most likely not be willing to marry a 45 year old man as long as she holds out some hope that she can still marry someone younger.
Don’t confuse this with NASI, which is directed at the societal issue, not an individual girl.
shlishi,
My viewpoint was already expressed earlier. To summarize: No specific girl is certain to not have a close-in-age shidduch, so whether the odds are against her or not, few girls will compromise on an important issue.
Corn on the cob is kosher. It’s just those little bugs that burrow their way under the kernels so you can’t see them that are the problem.
I guess the waiter who said it’s not kosher is not such a big lamdan.
There was an interview conducted with R’ Moshe Vaye, in which it is indicated that he feels it’s a problem in the U.S. Although it doesn’t say it outright, the only thing he mentions which is problematic in E.Y. but not in the U.S. is flour.
Mod 80, thanks for reopening. It did seem as if you were paskening the shaila and closing the thread for further discussion!
http://www.lakewood246.com/news/15573/beware-the-bugs-an-interview-with-rav-moshe-vaye.html
Daasyochid: The word ‘bochur’ may come from the root ‘choice ones’ but that has nothing to do with yeshiva at all. The word bochur appears many times in shas and meforshim and it simply is a reference to unmarried males.
Good point.
It does not matter whether they are yeshiva bochurim or eskimo hunters.
It’s a bigger chillul Hashem if they’re yeshiva bochurim.
I know that nowadays girls start around 18 to look to get married- maybe you can be Melamed Zecus that they aren’t ready yet for marriage beforehand-so maybe they aren’t Oiver anything yet.
Do many singles abrogate their chiyuv to get married because they’re too picky? I think so, but I wouldn’t push them into what would likely be a bad marriage.
I know of an older single girl who on several occasions was close to getting engaged. She had reservations, and spoke, each time, to an adam gadol. She was not told to simply get married because she has a chiyuv! If she had a legitimate concern, the rov she spoke to told her not to marry him!
I can’t say I know that you’re not Joseph, but I would be shocked. Your styles are quite different. I’ve usually picked up on Joseph’s new aliases pretty quickly, and your style does not fit.
Google suki ding hallel.
The camps certainly view it as a luxury, entitling them to charge what they want without any scholarships (not to say that no camps give scholarships, but it’s less frequent than in schools). For many families, however, it is close to a necessity, based on the individual child and the family situation.
Where does it say the word “yeshiva”?
Good point, but the word “bochurim” shouldn’t be used either. Although it has come to mean single young men, the root is “choice ones”, which implies yeshiva students, and some still associate the term with b’nei Torah.
The term “young men” would have been more neutral.