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If the child needs the restroom the solution is even easier. You ask a frum person of the child’s gender to take him into the restroom, while you wait right outside the door the whole time
Many children would not be agreeable.
IMHO, Leaving a child with a stranger is more dangerous — whether they “look frum” or not.
I disagree (under the specific circumstancs we were discussing).
And I’m more than willing to be called “pervert” or the like to keep my kids safe.
As you should, if you feel it’s unsafe. FTR, I never called you that, nor do I think it’s even remotely true.
No One Special,
What’s your point? You agree that hishtadlus is in order, so how is anyone’s attitude all wrong? Nobody is denying that the success of the NASI endeavor is up to Him.
The pairing up of Chassidim to livish was mentioned; it won’t work in large numbers because of the cultural differences.
How about The Baguette Grill?
You espouse ideas such as jews should not have computers, should have only special cell phones, that jews should not go to movies ever and you wonder why most of the Israel Nation has nothing to do with our Laws that you are perverting with your perversion of justice.
So what you feel is that we should ignore all halacha so that nobody should find it difficult to be “religious”?
BTW, did you really see anyone post that Jews shouldn’t have computers?
Tips are the PARENTS display of hakaras hatov, the camp can’t be yotzei with that!
Poor argument. There are some professions in which most of the income is from tips. Tips are just more direct means of getting payment from the customer to the worker. Minimum wage, for example, includes tips.
This from the U.S. Dept of Labor: (Bear in mind that normal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour.)
What is the minimum wage for workers who receive tips?
The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) requires payment of at least the federal minimum wage to covered, nonexempt employees. An employer of a tipped employee is only required to pay $2.13 an hour in direct wages if that amount plus the tips received equals at least the federal minimum wage, the employee retains all tips and the employee customarily and regularly receives more than $30 a month in tips. If an employee’s tips combined with the employer’s direct wages of at least $2.13 an hour do not equal the federal minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the difference.
Some states have minimum wage laws specific to tipped employees. When an employee is subject to both the federal and state wage laws, the employee is entitled to the provisions which provides the greater benefits.
Maybe it’s a bigger chillul HaShem to go into a theater.
Bigger than my very existence? I doubt it.
No, bigger than not walking into a theater.
I agree with cherrybim and Dr. Pepper. The teenager is getting three meals a day in a structured environment. He (or she is being supervised by the head staff (those are the ones who actually get paid).
Having spoken to people who run camps, it emerges that not all camps make money, and those that do, the owners are not becoming wealthy from it. Even if the owners were becoming wealthy from it, as long as they do not mistreat their staff (which I haven’t heard), they still have a right to use market forces and pay according to the law of supply and demand.
oomis1105, thanks.
Perhaps you’re right (for once). Perhaps I should stop “stealing” their services.
Atzas hayetzer. Go to the shiur, and if you want, enjoy the food. The people sponsoring it want you to. It’s a z’chus for them.
True, but if my very existence is a chillul HaShem (as I’ve been told in the past), then it really matters not where I go. If I go to shul, it’s a chillul HaShem. If I go to the theater, it’s a chillul HaShem.<
Maybe it’s a bigger chillul HaShem to go into a theater.
If you think yur leeching off the shul then maybe you shouldn’t go to that shul for a shiur or any minyanim?
Ever hear of Hillel?
Is it your contention then that someone who “properly” says Ashrei (however that’s defined) is immune from mental illness resulting in suicide?
Your original premise (correctly) was that one only lose his share in O”H for committing suicide while mentally competent.
I actually think you *should* be disappointed. You wanted to hear a shiur on a specific topic, but you didn’t. It should be the same disappointment as you would feel if you were told that the topic was changed because the scheduled maggid shiur came down with laryngitis – not an upset disappointment, but a disappointment that you didn’t hear the shiur you wanted to.
Had you gone to the local pizza shop and been told that they ran out of your favorite topping, I would agree that although the normal human emotion would be to feel disappointment, the ideal would be not to. Since, however, we’re discussing talmud Torah, and one is supposed to learn what interests him, disappointment is fully justified.
So, for someone like me, whose been told that his very existence (inasmuch as I am not chareidi or yeshivish) is a chillul HaShem, I fail to see the harm in walking into a theater.
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
I do indeed feel you should be able to test yourself.
Chaza”l, however, do not.
That person going into the movies is already being oiver one averia. By removing his yarmulke he is now oiver 2 averiros.
IIRC, that is indeed R’ Moshe’s reasoning.
BOR – Listen Chavereim, Torah does not forbid you from watching a screenplay.
Please inform us of who you got s’micha from allowing you to decide matters of Jewish law.
On other threads, I’ve posted a teshuva from Chacham Ovadiah Yosef in which he explains clearly that there are several serious issurim involved in viewing most secular media, and quotes several other gedolim who had the same opinion.
Wolf, do you think the chances of harm coming to a child are greater in that situation (leaving for three minutes under the supervision of an obviously frum looking man), or taking the child in a car, or crossing the street with them?
He would ask a nice frum yid to watch his child, just like the guy in Wolf’s story did and just like DaasYochid, myself, and others indicated they would.
That works if the adult needs the restroom, not if the child needs the restroom.
shlishi,
Please drop it. Thanks.
But that said, I disagree with the modern Jewish thought process of the ultra religious who disavow all of the things that are “Secualar”.
Not all things secular; just those which have a negative impact on our neshamos.
This music that we have on our radio stations is truly a gift and I for one feel richer for the benefit of the listening pleasure.
One could make the same argument for cheeseburgers, that Mcdonalds is truly a gift, and I feel richer for the benefit of the culinary pleasure.
Try Carlebach, try Yosef Karduner, try any of the suggestions brought here, rather than the secular, morally debased stuff that plays on the radio today (unless you like classical music). By giving up the trash, you will be truly enriched.
How the heck did he know I was frum??? Just because I wore a white shirt and kippah?
With a white shirt, five day shadow, on Chol Hamoed, no doubt in some typical Chol Homoed spot like a museum or zoo. Yes, it’s a dead giveaway. Again, I’d argue that the chances of someone in those circumstances *not* being a frum Jew are infinitesimal.
Do you think Levi Aron is the first Jew to ever be accused of murdering another Jew?
It’s the first case I’ve ever heard of in which one abducted an unknown child with these tragic results.
Thanks for the update. Decent amount?
An acquaintance of mine claims he lost a gall bladder to the Atkins diet.
But, on the other hand, you should not be taking unnecessary risks — and leaving your kids with strangers (even if they look frum) is a definite risk.
For goodness’ sake, he had to go to the bathroom, and asked a frum guy to watch his kids for a minute! The chances of that particular person being a psycho are infinitesimal, and (I agree with Droid that) you can’t live your life paranoid.
Driving is a risk, as is crossing the street. should we avoid those?
the R”Y advising the NASI Project have encouraged that course of action and thus they are following up on it.
That’s fine, the upside, closing the gap, is obvious. I’m just pointing out that it’s a shikul hada’as. Marrying a slightly older girl doesn’t have this downside (although it may have others).
Are they following up on it by encouraging their talmidim to go to E.Y. earlier? Or by telling them to come back earlier?
Btw i have not said anything in terms of aboloshing the freezer.
Yes, I pointed that out, in your defense.
As for regarding leaving full time learning: It has far more to do with the number of children he has/at what age he has them/what other sources of income etc. Whether he got married at 22.50 or at 23.25 has probably very little to do with how many years he learns in full time kollel after his chassuna.
It would make a difference of three quarters of a year.
DY – Despite what is written in the Kesubah, almost noone in Kollel has any financial responsibilities.
Anyway it’s not just the Shver, they say he has a company of 5 & the gov. working for him. The guy’s parents (2), the in-laws (4), and of course the Vibel (5), plus all the Gov. programs!
Do us a favor, and take your anti kollel diatribe to a different thread.
shlishi –
but he thinks the freezer is artificially holding back boys who would like to start.
Well, then this disagreement is essentially between an anonymous internet poster and the Roshei HaYeshiva of Beis Medrash Govoha.
It’s not too hard to figure out who AZ is. Besides, his point is not to abolish the freezer, it’s that bochurim should come back from E.Y. earlier, so that they’re out of the freezer earlier. The point of the freezer, as I understand it, is that the bochurim settle in to a good learning routine before they start going out, not that they should go out later.
Health –
DY – This whole convo is talking about guys who learn in EY and then go to Lakewood. What – there are no guys in Shidduchim in America who don’t follow this route?
Sure, there are some. That doesn’t change the fact that many (probably a large majority) do go to Lakewood.
“When someone gets married, he takes on financial responsibilities that he did not previously have,”
Not in Lakewood – he don’t!
Sure he does. Whether his shver supports doesn’t change the kesuba.
For the purpose of this conversation, my point is that despite the stereotype, the vast majority do eventually leave full time learning. At what age that takes place is usually directlt related to the age someone gets married.
He may have whom to rely on to chew gum, but his rabbi recommended against it, and he heats up cold liquids on Shabbos. I would not eat there.
Meanwhile, see if you can speak to him (or his rabbi) about not heating liquids on Shabbos, which is potentially a bigger problem.
What’s wrong with that.
What’s potentially wrong with that is the boys leaving Eretz Yisroel before they’re ready. The whole idea of having boys marry earlier, even those who are mature enough to handle marriage, is not simple at all. When someone gets married, he takes on financial responsibilities that he did not previously have, and in the vast majority, getting married younger means leaving full-time learning younger.
Whether or not the age/gender discrepancy warrants this sacrifice is only a decision that the gedolei hador could make, and each bochur, with his rebbe, could make.
Encouraging considering slightly older girls to marry does not have this drawback.
AZ: can you please reconcile your statement “I wholeheartidly agree with your statement “I see a healthy sense of individualism” with “I said the present reality is NOT in the best interest of the boys individuality”
If you read his next sentence, he wrote, “we simply disagree as to whether that is taking place presently now or not.”
Since your statement was, “I see a healthy sense of individualism”, was referring to the way you see the present reality, it “takeh” doesn’t make sense to agree with it and then say that it’s not presently occurring, but his intent was pretty clear – he’d like to see boys start dating as soon as they’re ready, (as would you), but he thinks the freezer (and/or arriving in Lakewood when ready to date) is artificially holding back boys who would like to start.
DH –
I don’t think that voting for Obama is one of the three simanim of a shota.
That’s what I meant.
One could argue, though that it’s m’abed mah shenosnim lo (if someone thinks Obama will destroy the U.S.).
I plan to vote for Obama in 2012. But this is really irrelevant to this thread.
A shoitah l’davar echad is not a shoitah. 😉
If anyone would like to sponsor a better server please email the Editor 🙂
It’ll work if the complainant is an advertiser.
There are two types of cheresh; one who speaks but cannot hear, and one who cannot do either. The former is considered a bar da’as, the latter is not.
With today’s advanced technology, most deaf people can be taught to speak (and cochlear implants can help them hear, although the status of these and other devices is questionable as to whether considered halachic hearing).
anon1m0us,
According to your logic, Hatzolah never should have been started, since at that moment, nobody’s life was going to be saved.
The reality is that it’s as if (on a community scale) some girls are locked in a box (albeit any specific girl can gett married), and, at least according to 70 R”Y, it’s not a lack of bitachon to try to close the gap so that there’s an opportunity for all of them to get married.
I was wondering…..doesn’t G-d control who you marry and when you marry? As long as you do your hishtadlus there is no crises. So why are we finding causes and suggesting solutions when it is all part of G-d’s plan.
For an imdividual, you’re right. But society’s hishtadlus has to take the whole picture into account, and if that means closing the age gap, then that’s the hishtadlus which needs to be done.
In any event, as I explained to DY above, there is nothing untoward, unkosher, unethical, or outright illegal in getting kedushin without a marriage certificate.
You didn’t explain it, you asserted it. You’re wrong.
You refer to the moral decay in our society as if it’s an excuse to do things which look wrong. It doesn’t work that way, it would still be a huge C”H.
Have you dug up the tape of RAM calling for polygamy? (BTW, how many wives did he have?)
the average incoming age to the largest post EY yeshiva in North America is almost 23 years old
I thought it was younger, but I never did a study. I still don’t think that getting boys married younger is so pashut; the clock starts ticking faster on leaving the b.m. full time.
You mentioned earlier that there’s a thought that unplugging the freezer wouldn’t be of any benefit. Why not? (I’m not advocating it – there’s a good reason for the freezer – but I’m curious how it could possibly not close the gap).
D”Y, holding hands with a niddah is NOT the same issur as eating at McDonald’s, and anyone who says so, is probably committing the same type of lo tosif as Adam Harishon did when he told Chava they could not even touch the eitz hadaas, whent hat was NOT what Hashem said to Adam.
The difference is is that Hashem DID say not to engage in behavior which may lead to giluy arayos.
but if they do, lightning will most likely not strike them
Not in this world. Same as a cheeseburger. Or as hello99 pointed out, worse.
they should not be told that they would get koreis for touching a niddah, if it simply is not true
Agreed, but they should be told that’s it’s a very severe issur D’oraisa, for which one one would be obligated to give up his/her life not to transgress.
I agree with DZ, and think it’s assur (I would guess, but am not sure, that the store loses out if they neglect to charge foe the deposit). You should tell the cashier that you can’t scan all five together, one has no deposit and four do.
R-b, you could have used lemonade as an example. ?
you are demanding a higher standard than the Torah which gives the Kohanim (priests descending from Aaron) steaks for bringing the Korbanos (animal offerings in the Temple).
The Torah already promised “steaks” for tzeddakah – Aser k’dai shetisaher.
What’s also sad is that there are priorities in halacha as to which mosdos or even yechidim one should give, and these are all being disregarded, and instead, people who give are giving based on whose steak is more well done. Unfortunately, it is all too rare to find someone giving l’sheim shamayim (that $5 Oorah entry notwithstanding).
It’s better that the couple should grow together, rather than that they should each be set in their own independent, mature ways.
There needs to be a balance. Too young is no good, but there’s an easy solution: wait. Too old can also be a problem, that they’re too set in their ways, but you can’t very well tell the older singles not to get married!
Like Goldie Lox, it has to be juuuust right.
Joseph,
“Doesn’t inquire” is not the same as “doesn’t require”.
Either way, it would be a massive C”H.
Joseph,
Rav Pam would not be m’sader kiddushin for a couple who didn’t register civilly.
The scenario you desire would cause a massive chillul Hashem.
AZ,
The boys are mostly starting to date at, max, 22 already. Younger than that is the problem. A certain R”Y whose initials were AZ was against boys marrying too young because he saw the shalom bayis issue that came to him.
Why “should” she not “allow” her husband to take another?
Because it would create an unsustainable marriage. It’s impossible that Rav Miller Zt”l was in favor of polygamy on a practical level; he would never advise someone to do something stupid (cause marital strife and get thrown in jail).
oomis1105,
Correct, but it is still likely an issur D’oraisa, and I don’t see how one can minimize it and say it’s clearly better than eating at McDonalds. They’re both terrible (although the yetzer hara for McDonalds is less for most people).