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oomis, …the process needs to be re-evaluated so we can see where different HALACHICALLY ACCEPTABLE methodologies can be utilized.
That’s been done. Even the normative way which yeshivah boys now “date” (several meetings, outside of the home) was controversial when it first began, but it was deemed necessary, under the umbrella of “???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??????”, but nobody ever took it as far as you suggest.
No disrespect was taken, and certainly none was intended on my part either.
tahini,
It’s very admirable that you are proud of your children for becoming more “yeshivish”. Many parents whose children have done so are antagonistic towards them, and certainly are not proud. You must possess extraordinary character.
I nevertheless disagree with the rest of your post.
“Chatting at a communal shabbaton or shul kiddush” is no different than the mixed Tashlich decried by the poskim.
As I’ve explained, the money issue is not, IMO, insulting, just practical. It would be a nice ideal to say that even more difficult shadchanus should be done for free, but surely, if the older girls were indeed being focused on, there would be no need for this initiative.
It’s quite admirable that your relatives who are doctors and lawyers (who, it should be noted, are usually considerably more well off financially than full time shadchanim) occasionally do work pro-bono, but it’s unfair to demand that of others.
passfan,
??? ????. The ??? ???? says the same, and quotes the ??? ????? that the ??? ??? did not allow his daughters to go to Tashlich on R”H for this reason.
The ??? ???? and ??? ???? are standard commentaries on ??? ?????, printed in many editions and quoted by later poskim.
Popa, why do you stand for the Haftarah?
oomis,
You still defend socializing even though the Shulchan Aruch says it’s assur? Amazing.
The present generation of yeshivah boys has very little trouble getting married, b”H, it’s much more of an issue with the girls.
Oomis,
??”? (??”? ??’ ?”? ???’ ?’): ???? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???’ ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????
??? ???? ???”? ?’: ??? ???? ????? (?????? ????) ?? ?????? ?????? ?”? ??????, ?? ???? ??”? ???????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??’ ???
tahini,
see point 1) above. Two more quotes:
?????? ?? – ??? ????????? ??????
It has nothing to do with being “modern orthodox”, it’a a matter of ignoring the words of Chaza”l.
Quickly, before Shabbos:
BTGuy, I don’t fully understand your post, so forgive me if I got you wrong, but it seems that you agree that the shadchanim should suggest older girls, and the boys are wrong for turning down such suggestions. This NASI initiative motivates the shadchan to redt the older girls, which they otherwise would not have (because it’s more time consuming), and it only works for the boys who would agree to go out with an older girl. you numbers are slightly off (the program starts at 22) but the idea is that more motivation is needed to redt the 24 year old than the 22 year old.
What does seminary have in common with cell phones which don’t have a plan?
They’re both prepaid.
gavra_at_work, DY: WADR to BTguy, I believe his main issue is that we should not be manipulating the system at all. Assuming shaddchonim (and others proposing shidduchim) have the best interests of the couple in mind, the shaddchan proposes what he/she thinks is the best shidduch. To pay out so that the second best shidduch is proposed does sound wrong.
Then he should say so. This would actually be the strongest argument against closing the age gap. However, why do you assume that a closer in age girl is second best? In many respects, she’s better. If a particular boy feels needs a younger girl, nobody’s forcing him to go out with an older one.
As far as “manipulating the system”, it sounds evil, especially when some people call it “social engineering”, but if the benefits outweigh the disadvantages, (and as I wrote, it won’t cause inferior shidduchim) what’s really the problem? This possible hashkafah issue is best left to our gedolim, and we know where they stand.
apushatayid, Why don’t we ask her what she advocated instead of assuming.
Because she already told us. It’s not an assumption.
BSD, DY. “I think a Lexus is overpriced, so I drive a Ford. But I’m not upset at Lexus.”
Great analogy except I would compare it to a Honda Accord. Lexus implies overindulgence while Honda represents respectability – as apposed to trying to do things yishivish in order to save money at the expense of being effective and accomplishing the objective.
Except that I drive a Mustang. 😉
Seriously, I agree with you, but I used Lexus to illustrate that even the opponents of this program, who consider it a waste of money, are expressing their opinion about how other people should or should not spend their money. They do not need to join.
Doswin,
Thanks. It’s very nice to see someone being fair even if they have a different opinion.
aries, DY, if the supply is the girl who signed the contract and is in fact prepared to pay the bucks, then the shadchan should not be hung up with the boy who does not necessarily have to sign a contract. She is chasing down the boys. They are in demand. So your little scenario is a false pretense and totally inaccurate.
Okay, you got me on a technicality, but the scenario would be equally ludicrous if the conversation was with the girls’ parents.
BTGuy, It is a disgrace that our boys should be allowed to shop for a 21 year old over a 22 year old, and charge the 22 year old extra to be in the parsha.
You don’t understand the program. It’s not the boys who get the extra money in the NASI program, it’s the shadchanim. You choose to view the program as devaluing the dignity of b’nos Yisroel by assigning them a monetary value (as do others), but I think it’s a misunderstanding – its simply more time consuming to complete a successful shidduch for an older girl, so the shadchanim are being reimbursed for their extra time.
If a doctor would prescribe a life saving medication for one patient, and perform a complex surgery on another, would you accuse him or her of valuing the latter’s life more than the former if the fees were higher?
apushatayid, Until all boys are invited to this party, there will always be a shortage of boys. Nothing NASI does, no matter how large a financial carrot they dangle in front of shadchanim, if we eliminate those we have written off as “modern”, we will always have a “shortage”.
I can reverse that statement as well: Until the age gap issue is addressed, no matter how much the girls compromise on their ideals, there still will not be enough boys for them.
Our horses are beyond dead.
You didn’t, it was someone else who did. Although “hefker” was my commentary.
gaw, Not a bad theory, but, in fact, the vast majority of boys do get married.”
Of course, because they can marry 20 year olds!
I’m not sure what you mean. My point is that the shidduch crises is not caused by the boys being able to make demands, however it likely resulted in the boys being able to make demands.
Doswin, So do the vast majority of girls get married.
Not as high a percentage as the boys.
Aries was not suggesting that NASI mediate a contract, but either way, a contract doesn’t guarantee fulfillment; an escrow is more of a surety.
oomis, I am waiting for a Kol Korei to be issued by our Gedolim that ALL shadchanim have an achrayus to make at least 5 shidduchim each year for people who cannot afford to pay ONE CENT and who are difficult or challenging shidduchim for any reason (older, divorced or widowed with or w/o children, overweight, developmentally-challenged, etc.). But I am not holding my breath.
Let’s also have a kol korei demanding everybody with a car devote at least ten hours a week giving rides to people who can’t afford a car service, and demanding at least ten hours a week from every able-bodied person to put together packages for Tomchei Shabbos, and ten hours a week for Chaverim.
oomis, Because THAT is what the focal point has been. THEY made it that way. Period. Their agenda is so filled with mercenary expressions, that age becomes secondary and even tertiary, EXCEPT as a way of getting more shekels.
The last I checked, NASI hasn’t put a lien on anyone’s property. The only people who will lay out the money are those who think this is a good idea. If you don’t like the idea, don’t join the program. I think a Lexus is overpriced, so I drive a Ford. But I’m not upset at Lexus.
oomis, When making dollars and cents is more important than making kallahs and sense, we have lost our focus of what is truly Derech Hashem.
Good line. The reason, however, for putting dollars into the equation, is in order to make kallahs. It’s not an end, it’s the means.
We are not comparing ourselves to them. We are noting that meeting shidduchim on our own has happened in history, and has been totally acceptable.
Not through single events, and not through hefker socializing. In your examples, Yaakov Avinu and Rochel Imeinu, and Rabbi Akiva and Rochel, they were not meeting many singles and deciding which one to marry; they knew exactly who they needed for their tafkid in life. To use them to support socializing is disingenuous, and insulting to these heilige people.
I will point out that most normal types of socializing were always considered halachically acceptable in my generation and that of my parents and grandparents.
If so, erroneously. We’ve been through a similar dicussion regarding untzniusdik dress. Without condemning anyone because we didn’t live through that nisayon, we can still say that it is objectively wrong l’halacha.
WE have created our own shidduch crisis, by failing to encourage and allow our kids to develop male/female relationships and friendships in a normal way within the bounds of halacha.
As I’ve said before, that’s NOT the problem, there are hundreds of single on the UWS who never had a problem socializing. It’s a matter of the numbers.
“male/female relationships and friendships in a normal way within the bounds of halacha.” An oxymoron.
And Shadchanim whose main motivator is money, are NOT a solution.
Why not? Money talks. That’s just reality.
aries, DY, you make it sound like the whole problem is the Shadchanim being afraid of getting stiffed, so it is really all about the money.
No, the main problem is that there are more available girls than boys. That point was addressing why the program calls fot the money to be put in escrow.
Don’t shadchanim have contracts that they sign with their clients and if not why not?
They don’t, AFAIK, but I can only imagine what a phone call from a shadchan would sound like:
“Hi, my name is Mrs. Flugenstein, and I’m calling about a possible shidduch for you son. She’s a wonderful girl – great middos, full of chein, bright, and personable. Her parents are wonderful people – pillars of their community. When can we meet?”
“Meet? What do you mean? Who’s the girl?”
“Sorry, I can’t tell you that until we sign a contract. Don’t forget to bring two eidim, and a signed affadavit from a recognized beis din certifying that they are kosher eidim”.
It is not done l’shem mitzvah for charity, it is done to earn parnasah and therefore it is subject to income tax.
Firstly, it’s not a contradiction to do something l’sheim shomayim but receive compensation for it. We would hope and assume that our rabbonim, rebbeim, mohelim, etc. are l’sheim shomayim, but they need to live. But that has nothing to do with paying taxes, which all need to do. Even someone who is a family friend and receives shadchanus gelt would need to report it (ask your local CPA).
Why do you assume that shadchanim pay taxes less than anyone else who runs a cash business? If you’re honest, you’ll pay, if not, you won’t, but it has nothing to do with what profession you are in.
apushatayid, Perhaps people should stop demanding so many things and they would find an adequate available supply.
True on an individual basis, but NASI is addressing the communal problem of more available girls than boys.
gavra_at_work, Increased demand may be part of the cause of the expectation, but once everyone expects, the girls that do support (without giving up the new car) are limited.
Not a bad theory, but, in fact, the vast majority od boys do get married.
cherrybim, Blaiming the so called shidduch crises on an alleged age gap can be compared to blaiming the so called unemployment crises on lack of job qualification.
Only if you allow polygamy. Otherwise it would be comparable to 20 people applying for 18 jobs; no matter how qualified they may be, two will remain unemployed.
gavra_at_work, And as others have pointed out, Age gap is only part of the lack of supply. Removal of supply (by “full time support” & “not Kovea Itim / minyan every day”) is also, if not as, important.
There are plenty of girls who are not makpid on “Kovea Itim / minyan every day”, I have no idea whether the percentage of those girls is the same as the percentage of boys who don’t keep them. Age gap, though, is a definite issue. And I don’t know if it’s wise for a girl to give up on her hakpadah for “Kovea Itim / minyan every day”; these are very important things. Fixing the age gap doesn’t carry the same down side.
Full time support is usually the boys’ demand, not the girls’, so it’s actually, to a large degree, caused or increased by the age gap issue. If there was not an “oversupply” of girls, only the very strong learners would have such financial requirements. As things stand now, even boys who might be better off going to work sooner are able to ask for long term support.
Focusing on “older” girls would have the side benefit of lowering the financial strain on parents, because these girls are generally more advanced in her career, with higher income and more savings.
jl, Daas Yochid, you have not properly addressed my comment that the disconnect is that the boys have twenty or so on their list and the girls can hardly get a yes. that is not an age gap thing.
I have addressed it. It IS an age gap thing – supply and demand.
oomis, Yaakov Avinu and Rochel had Hashem for their Shadchan. So did Rabbi Akiva and his Rochel.
We can hardly compare ourselves to them; nor do we dare in any wat associate them with the singles’ events which you referred to; clearly the proper guidelines for marriage, as set down by the gedolim in all generations, is not to allow certain types of socializing.
Blind dates have been set up by friends, family members, teachers, Rabbis and Rebbetzins all along.
We’re in agreement; I don’t necessarily have a preference for a “professional” shadchan.
I object to THIS type of shadchan, where it is patently obvious to anyone who can read, that money IS the determining factor. “They’ll work much harder for a 30 year old girl for $13K than if she paid only 6K like a younger girl.” How debasing and how lacking in middos this sounds.
A fine ideal, but I would be loath to stand on principle at the expense of the suffering of b’nos Yisroel which might be alleviated though this measure.
And the 35-40 year old boys who are not married, or are divorced – they are NOT having trouble finding a shidduch?????
For the most part, their problem is not getting redt shidduchim, it’s “finding the right one” (or, to be cynical, commitment issues), which is not addressed by NASI.
This initiative does no more than motivate the potential for a shidduch to be presented. Many girls, nebach, wait for months at a time before even hearing a name; the boys generally have no shortage of names.
In theory, yes, but “im kein ein l’dovor sof”!
This whole thing makes me feel so sad and VERY disturbed.
The idea of so many girls who are otherwise (al pi teva) destined to live out their lives without marrying and raising a family saddens and disturbs me.
BTW, who wrote that explanantion article – I don’t recall seeing his/her name anywhere…?
That’s not too hard to figure out; it’s not much of a secret who’s behind all of this, but I don’t feel at liberty to give you the name since he chooses anonymity on this site (although he’s been quoted by name in the media). Sorry. (A bit of googling might help you, though.)
oomis,
The drastic measures you mention could be as simple as NOT teaching our children from Day One that it is so assur and untsniusdig to talk to the opposite gender, that they must always be segregated from each other, rather than having mixed properly supervised events where they can meet and socialize.
One of the most common negative reactions to NASI (both projects) seems to be based on negativity towards the whole idea of using shadchanim.
Firstly, this is a time honored minhag in klal Yisroel, firmly rooted in the Torah’s ideals of tznius.
Secondly, it has not been demonstrated that if left to choose their own mates, singles would be more likely to choose one closer in age than those who go through shadchanim. AFAIK, the gender disparity is at least equally large among the more modern crowd, which by all accounts suffers terribly from an overwhelming number of older singles.
jl, It would just be so much simpler (and cheaper) if we just brainstormed amongst ourselves and made shidduchim!!!
That does happen often, but it has no effect on the age gap issue. That won’t be solved unless there’s a focus on closer-in-age shidduchim, regardless of whether or not a professional shadchan is involved.
jl, why on earth do they need it up front
To be blunt, shadchanim are more likely to invest time in a shidduch if they aren’t afraid of getting stiffed.
and why is the girl paying both sides shadchanus.?
I don’t think this exempts the boys’ side from shadchanus, but the extra money from the girls’ side is because of the laws of supply and demand.
and why that much?
Again, to be blunt, it’s much harder to find a shidduch for an older girl because they’re generally more choosy, so a larger incentive is needed.
Its simple really…
What’s simple? Kashe zivugam k’krias Yam Suf…
THe bigger problem, is the disconnect between the boys’ lists and girls sitting week after week without a yes. Thats the problem that needs to be solved,
Otherwise known as age gap…
not forcing 20 yr old boys to marry 24 yr old girls which is ridiculous. at best!
No that’s not the problem, although it would be a solution! However, nobody’s forcing anyone.
BSD,
Certainly, I didn’t mean that every yeshiva bochur has perfected his middos. I agree with your post.
Regarding the previous post, and whether there was a gender disparity issue in “di heim”, a few old-timers who may have recalled some alte meidlach does not convince me, but even if true, it’s really a side point. There are definitely more available girls today than boys, and whether or not this issue existed is irrelevant. I know some might argue that the gedolim of the past did not deal with the issue, but that’s a “kasha oif a mayseh” because our generation’s leaders have encouraged closing the gap.
Doswin, As far as pogroms, I don’t see any reason to speculate that the antisemites targeted men over women.
I see you’re missing my point. Age gap alone doesn’t account for a gender disparity, it’s only a factor if there’s also an ongoing population increase. The higher mortality rate, caused by a multiplicity of factors including pogroms, and incurable illness (both which don’t necessarily distinguish between the genders), would all contribute to a lower rate of population increase, and, hence, a smaller or nonexistent gender disparity.
Doswin,
We b”H have better health care than we did in Europe, and fewer pogroms.
oomis,
In an earlier post, I explained why I don’t think they’re comparing themselves to Eliyahu Hanavi.
apushatayid,
I wouldn’t say “can’t”, I just think that in general, it’s unwise, because the chances of the girl getting a “no” are great, and why make her feel bad unnecessarily? Even before we, as a society, came to the realization that there’s a numbers disparity, this was the typical approach, because the feeling is that a girl is likely to take rejection harder than a boy.
yeshivabochur123,
An age gap by itself would not cause a problem; it’s the age gap coupled with a population which increases every year, ka”h, which is currently to a degree which we’ve probably not had since Mitzrayim.
aries,
What system? The yeshiva system? The yeshiva boys I know practice all of the things you’ve mentioned to a higher degree than the boys who are not in yeshiva. The Torah itself teaches these things, and in my experience, serious talmidim practice what they learn.
Of course, in our generation there’s less respect for parents and elders than in previous generations, and even b’nei Torah are nebach affected, but they’re still better than their counterparts who dropped out!
apushatayid,
If a boy takes his time to say yes, the girl is free to go out with someone else, since she never made any commitment, and may never have even heard the name. Had she already agreed to go out, she would have to wait for a response and would meanwhile be tied down.
aries,
Although you’re right that it would be more fair and equitable to have the boys put money in escrow as well, the point here isn’t fairness, it’s solving a problem. The problem is the larger # of girls than boys, and the laws of “supply and demand”, unfortunately, are against the girls.
Your earlier point, if I understand it correctly, about the boys being less mature than the girls at the same age, is quite valid, and pba’s objection is misguided. Certainly, the argument can be made that it’s not a good idea for a 22 year old boy to marry a 22 year old girl because she’s been “around the block” more than he. Whether he’s to blame, or is simply acting “age appropriate”, is irrelevant. However this must be weighed against the age gap problem, and apparently, many great people who have agreed to the goal of closing the age gap feel that we can save the suffering of many bnos Yisroel without seriously compromising on sholom bayis.
I wish to disagree, however with your choice of terminology when you write “The system itself has kept these boys from growing and maturing”. Although there may be some degree of delay in the ability to handle responsibility in “mili d’alma” (worldly matters), the system is designed for, and for the most part is successful at, promoting growth and maturity in Torah and yiras shomayim.
BSD,
According to US Census,
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0080.pdf
there are 105 males born for every 100 females. If this is also true for the Jewish population, we would expect that even with a small age gap (with the boys slightly older than the girls), there might still be more boys than girls.
In a previous thread, this statistic was used by one poster to erroneously disprove the age gap theory. He was wrong, because the yeshivish age gap is too wide, but the point has some merit.
real-brisker,
Not likely, but you never know.
BSD,
Thank you for the kind words (and real-brisker, thanks to you as well).
I don’t represent NASI, but I’ll answer nevertheless. There’s a simple reason for the fact it’s different in the chassidishe velt – the age gap is much smaller!
bestmommy,
In AZ’s post, he says that NASI claims that the original program only offered monetary compensation subject to availability of funds. According to that, if the funds are not available, they don’t owe you the money.
Der Geller,
No, not every shidduch which actually takes place is a fulfillment of the bas kol. Bechira very much plays a role.
I would like to add a couple of points to my previous post.
Many have apparently been insulted by this program, and I wonder if NASI considered that the reaction would be this way. Either way, they consulted with their advisors who felt that this was the proper thing to do, and the venom spewed (by some) against NASI is uncalled for, even if you disagree with the program.
The need to encourage shidduchim which are closer in age has been extensively addressed in this forum as well as in many others.
Many attempts were made for the Kallah. How would you proceed?
Those of you who feel that it should be done without financial motives are encourage you to do your own shadchanus for free. Meanwhile, there are not enough shadchanim, so a program which encourages shadchanim with financial incentives is a worthy idea.
2) Is it true that NASI owes people money for the earlier program? Although this would be different, because the money is held in escrow with objective oversight, it would certainly cause great concern. I have emailed this question to NASI and await a response.
Okay, before I submitted this post I got a response.
The name is Reuven Dovid ben Yehudah
And it is even worse to call those things that they do, “looking for the easy way out.” Who says being a frum Yid has to be “the hard way in?” Hashem gave us great halachos to follow. If we are following them, then we are doing His Will.
But why do certain people consistently follow the lenient approach, if not because it’s easier? Is the more stringent opinion in halachic matters not also “His will”?
First: one for the people leaning more towards the super – frum/chassidish side, and one for the normal people not leaning that way. …and the normal will not need to be constantly bombarded with demands that they stop eating gefilte fish, or that they walk with their eyes covered in the streets led by a guide dog, and things of that nature.
Then: As do many of the comments of the chassidish/super frum who are trying to impose their twisted world view onto everyone else. Give it up. You are NOT doing a mitzvah, and you are not doing G-ds will. G-d wants us to lead happy, normal lives. Be normal
Then: With out going into to much detail here, there are those that chase after chumros, and there are those that are fine with what was passed down to them from their parents, without looking for additional “frumkeit”. And they attempt to integrate a normal healthy lifestyle, with yiddeshkeit.
Then: Your life is controlled by fear and worry. People who are not in control of their own lives are usually not very happy.
And yet again: Do you think that hashem wants us to live a crazy not normal life? Do you think that he would punish us all, old and young, who have never done wrong, alike, with such a harsh thing?
Also, (what the super frum are even doing on the internet g-d knows. Maybe “kiruv” LoL)
Then: I really don’t understand how all of these people who seem so frum by the opinions that they express, have internet access, that according to them is assur gamur. This mystefies me.
And then you say:I only stated my views exactly once here, never saying the same thing about my views twice.
Wow.
YWN moderators make less than that.
You bring up a good point; why is okay to volunteer, but illegal to work for below minimum wage?
There is no problem with blowing out a match since one only accepts shabbos once one says the berocho.
That’s a machlokes acharonim.
quark,
Since you agree that it is assur, you should acknowledge that there is no halachic basis to be lenient about texting, and it is purly rationalization to defend texting on Shabbos.
Again I will say that it s addictive behavior, which needs a level of yiras shomayim to overcome which sadly and tragically many of our teens do not possess.
This is yet another compelling reason why teens should not have texting available on their cell phones (FTR, IMO most shouldn’t have cell phones at all).
Because my goal here was never to offend anybody chv”sh.
Didn’t seem that way, especially when, in your earlier “apology” for calling superfrum/chassidish twisted, abnormal, and unhappy, you wrote, “but this is how I see you, from my point of view”!
You’ve also have not demonstrated a single one of the supposed “chumros that don’t have any basis in halachah or yiddeshkeit” yet, probably because you realize that if you tried, one of the more well informed CR members could show you a valid source for it.