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Perhaps flip the tables and redt shidduchim to girls first and if still no yes from a guy, despite a yes from the girl, there is more going on than just “not enough bodies to go around”.
What else do you think is going on? “Not enough bodies to go around” explains it perfectly well.
,When an anonymous organization, supposedly standing behind anonymous roshei yeshiva, expects people to trust them with thousands of dollars, it invites cynicism. And if it can’t stand up to scrutiny then something definitely seems rotten.
I would definitely advise anyone who would hand over a check to first verify that is indeed backing from reliable talmidei chachamim. I just don’t think people should be publicly blasting this project simply because they don’t know who it is.
The response has basically been that they didn’t read the fine print.</em.
Fine print? There was a contract?
I happen to agree that not paying shadchanim from the previous initiative is bad PR for this one, but they are totally different. The first one had NASI paying from their own (fund-raised) money, which they ran out of.
This one is entrusting them with private money put in escrow.
I was mainly questioning whether NASI is entitled to the money.
If the shadchan and the girl are signed up, why isn’t it fair to assume that this new suggestion was encouraged by NASI? The money they receive is a relatively small amount, (don’t jump on me; $500 is a lot of money, but only a fraction of the overall money paid) and covers administrative fees.
(Although I think its fair to ask if the shadchan should be getting the big bucks rather than normal shadchanus).
Again, why not?
But being provable won’t help if you signed on the dotted line that the anonymous NASI organization and an unnamed rosh yeshiva decide if they get the money or not.
They’re not anonymous to anyone who does even a bit of research.
You my friend, are hopelessly stuck on the first level of understanding.
And you apparently haven’t even gotten to the first level.
Math has virtually nothing to do with the validity of the age gap theory,
That statement makes no sense to me. I’m not sure which part of the equation you disbelieve; that we have population growth? That the tendency is for the boys to be older than the girls? That this combination leads to a discrepancy in the number of available boys vs. girls?
and it certainly has nothing to do with the moral issues surrounding manipulation.
Agreed – that’s a separate discussion. I’ll leave that to our gedolei hador, who clearly feel that something should be done about the issue. (For that matter, I’ll assert that we should take their word for it that there’s an age gap issue, and trust that they’ve done the proper research.)
lammed hey,
One detail: he had a list before the short-lived detailed t’udah (although he may have temporarily suspended it at one point).
charlie brown,
lol. I once saw a picture of a giant mouse sitting in front of a computer…using a human as his pointing device.
The Far Side, I think.
charlie brown,
Wow, you’re really cynical.
Example 1:
If the shidduch was read after the girl was registered, wouldn’t the shadchan be entitled to the money?
Example 2;
You’re really stretching things to assume that it’s unprovable who the real shadchan was.
Besides, the way the system operates is that the shadchan doesn’t get the money until after the chasunah. I can guarantee that the money will be requested in return before then.
Amazing!
RSRH,
Some people here tend to discredit my credentials as a follower of R. Hirsh’s TIDE
Hoe did this become a discussion about you?
So, to say that making a simchas bas is problematic because it is creating a new ritual is really to mistate the misframe the issue.
That’s fine, because that wasn’t really my point. I’m not arguing against the development of new minhagim, there’s a history to how all minhagim, even those based on d’var r’shus, developed.
We cannot fully understand anyone’s complex motivations. We can judge only based on the actions we can externally observe, and then only by objective standards of halacha
My point is precisely to dispute this argument. If we bury our heads in the sand and ignore the obvious fact that the simchat bat “ritual” was invented – not developed, but invented – to discredit chaza”l, then we are guilty of the same, through inaction.
oomis,
It is a reminder that the Chashmonaim made coins.
Thank you.
zahavasdad,
I dont think when my kids ask for a Rebecca Rubin American Girl doll or an iPad they want “GELT”
No, but if you gave them enough gelt, they could get a Rebecca Rubin American Girl doll or an iPad (although I don’t think kids should have ipads).
zahavasdad,
if you DONT you are not a Ben-Torah and should be ostracized for being differnt
You made that up. Nobody ever said that.
So why when a Kehilla gets together to make community standards and one rov decides the standards are too leninent and tells people not to eat from the Kehilla hasghcha, He is considered a Tzadik
You’ve got your facts wrong. He doesn’t say not to eat from the Vaad, he advises his kehilla members to only eat from the Vaad establishments which uphold his standards. He is their posek, not the Vaad.
yichusdik,
I know, this is a simplistic example. But truly, it speaks to the issue.
Nor is the color of our shoelaces (nowadays) a religious issue.
zahavasdad,
A Bar Mitzvah (As practiced in 2011 with a Large Kiddish and Major party) are not part of our mesorah either</em.
The size of the celebration seems to have gotten out of hand, but I don’t think a kiddush, or the idea of a seudas mitzvah, is anything new.
Giving Presents on Chanukah is not part of our Mesorah either
Correct, although there may be a basis for “Chanukah Gelt”.
I ate a donut on my way out to my chavrusah…
While anyone would admit that the idea has “seichel appeal”
It’s much more than that; anyone who doesn’t “believe” in the age gap “theory” simply doesn’t have a good head for math. (I was going to say “has no seichel”, but then I decided that’s too harsh.)
AZ- it’s obvious that history in general depends on who is doing the telling. Perhaps that is how you perceive things, and as an insider you are able to know if that is the truth or not. But from the outside, that is not how things went. NASI shocked the velt with their outlandish proposal and then met with an outcry over a number of things. One was the complete lack of accountability- down to having no names associated- and thank goodness people did not let themselves get steamrolled by NASI on that aspect.
You’re misrepresenting the facts. NASI never took money before accountability was transparent, and they said they would do it this way before there was any “outcry”.
This still does not answer the question asked by the shadchanim, who were promised a fee back in 2008, which has not been paid.
Nor does it answer the question about the price of tea in China.
The question about the fee from 2008 was addressed elsewhere.
They owe a lot of money to a lot of people.
Before you make claims that anyone owes money to anyone, go over the contract and speak to an expert in Choshen Mishpat.
Zahavasdad,
If you think kids go OTD because they have to wear black hats, you seem to be under the assumption that families in which the men wear black hats have a higher percentage of OTD than those who don’t. Otherwise your entire argument is fallacious.
I would like to assert that it’s not so; black hat families do not have more OTD kids than non black hat families.
oomis,
I don’t think you’re disagreeing with pba about inventing new rituals, but I think you are being a little naive when it comes to (some) peoples motives for creating certain ones. The Chasam Sofer forbade a chuppah in a shul, although it was inherently muttar (the German Jews did it) because it was stressed by the reform, to imitate the notzrim.
Simchat bat, I believe, was invented (or at least applied by those who don’t really have that minhag) for the wrong reasons.
BTW, I believe that throwing something by an aufruf (although I think it used to be raisins and nuts) is a real minhag, but it is a more recent innovation to do it at a bar mitzvah as well.
Oh, and you could have made a kiddush the week after your daughters’ birth, as many people do.
r-b,
No. I just thought I’d do a public service by giving a link.
r-b,
How do we know it’s really you? 😉
“When to buy 1st black hat?”
When a really good sale comes along.
Try this link (while logged in), and click “profile” on the top left.
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hello99,
The knas is not on yayin, or on bishul, it’s on the mechalel Shabbos (on the gavra) that he has the din of a goy.
Concerning the keilim used for bishul aku”m, it’s a machlokes rishonim. Both opinions are brought in the mechaber. Most poskim seem to follow the stricter opinion (although we’re lenient, as per the mechaber, in the halachos of kashering).
Concerning a mechalel Shabbos, the Chasam Sofer (Y.D. 120) says, regarding stam yaynom, that the reason his wine is assur is neither because of chasnus, nor because of avodah zarah, but rather, it’s a k’nas. The same reasoning would likely apply to bishul, and according to the C.S. it would be a problem despite the fact that we hold bishul aku”m is because of chasnus.
He once was [on the Vaad’s kashrus committee], and left.
Yes, because he was accused of having a conflict of interest since he had a private hashgocha in a different community. Somehow, the rabbi who worked for the OU was not accused of having a conflict of interest (I actually think it makes sense to have rabbonim on the kashrus committee who are involved in hashgocha because they are bigger experts).
a businessman who may be a kosher, ehrliche Yid, is put out of business.
That’s factually incorrect. The majority of establishments in the FT are not on “the list”, yet are still open.
If a hechsher is reliable, it should be enough
That’s fine for those who consider those standards acceptable, and nobody’s trying to close down any establishments which are under the Vaad, but what about the people living in the FT/FR whose standards are different? Do you really have a problem if they have a pizza shop, fleishig restaurant, or take-out place which they are comfortable with? Must they travel to Brooklyn to get the meat or chicken with the shechitah they prefer?
no one should be allowed to be motzi shem ra on it.
We agree on that. Thankfully, nobody is being motzi shem ra on the Vaad.
We take Private education as a need
Because it is.
Kollel shouldn’t be mainstream!! It should be for a few, exceptional people who are the next Gedolei Hador, as it’s been for the past 2000 years.
You’re in disagreement with many of those very same Gedolei Hador.
The same way 99% of the readers of this site probably agree that a yeshiva education is not a luxury but a necessity, many of our gedolim have, with their superior wisdom, determined that we need more than a just a few yechidim devoting some years to full time learning, in order for klal Yisroel to function properly (spiritually).
zahavsdad, In Brooklyn with 2 or 3 Hasghchas, If a Rav walks into a store WITH a hasghcha already acceptable and says I will tell my flock NOT to eat in your restaurant UNLESS you use MY hashghcha
What would you call that
To borrow from soliek, a hypothetical straw man
Since we can likely agree that the O-U or Kaf-K is Kosher
We can agree that something is kosher, yet one of us might want a better hashgocha than something which merely meets minimal standards for “kosher” (I’m not referring to any hashgocha in particular, and my point can be applied to any hashgochas with different standards).
Interestingly, I don’t think there are too many establishments which carry OU and Kof-K, it’s more common to carry a “national” hechsher in addition to a “heimishe” hechsher.
If Hasghchas are always so interested in Kashurut and not other endevors why do restaurants in Brooklyn have 2 , 3 or even more haschga’s
Some customers trust hashgocha A, some trust hashgocha B. It’s a business decision.
Any Hasghcha more than one at a restautant smacks of extortion
Why? If anything, a local vaad has more of a monopoly than private hashgochas, but hopefully there’s oversight from the rabbonim who are vaad members.
The OP is crazy.
Not necessarily crazy, just biased.
um…youre all arguing with not enough information…2 questions seem germane…
1) how much did the vaad want from the restaurant
2) how much is the going rate
Most local vaadin do not cover their expenses with fees from the establishments they supervise. The community supplements (private hashgochas, OTOH must cover with the fees).
That said, you’re right. There is NO EXCUSE for a vaad to act like a mafia by extorting inordinate sums of protection money from store owners.
Strong words; why is asking for a fee extortion? The lower the fees, the less money a vaad has to pay mashgichim, and vice versa.
If you don’t really care if the food you put in your mouth is kosher, go to an establishment which uses an inexpensive hashgocha. If you do care, go to one with a hashgocha which pays its mashgichim decently and can have proper supervision.
pba,
You got me. 🙂
pba,
Yes, but surely you can’t socialize with everyone kiddushin is not tofes to. Like an eishes ish.
Of course; that wasn’t my point. I just enjoy nitpicking a nitpicker’s nitpicking; Wolf said that the OP didn’t exclude a daughter, and I was demonstrating that (s)he did.
I don’t believe the OP, or anyone else in this thread for that matter, made any exceptions for one’s daughter.
The OP was clearly addressing a shidduch issue, and kiddushin is not tofes with one’s daughter. The rest of the thread goes along the same lines; the discussion never addresses the host having an issue with his daughter, or even with her friends, being at the table.
Goq,
How do you know if you’re welcoming a new poster or a new SN?
Sam2,
DaasYochid: You’re really going to compare the current incarnation of “Daas Torah” to asking a Navi?
I wasn’t making that comparison, I’ll let PBA argue that one. I was merely pointing out that the “concept” (cantoresq’s word) of asking a talmid chochom as means of hearing Hashem’s wisdom, even in matters not pertaining to halacha, is indeed “classical Jewish thought”.
Whether it is applied correctly today is a different matter.
FTR, I don’t think daas Torah, as applied today, means infallibility; I think asking someone who thinks in a Torah-trained manner (see Jothar’s excellent post) gives one the best chance of getting a proper answer, and all Hashem asks of us is that we do our best.
The problem isnt the abuse, its the cover up
You probably meant to say that cover ups make the problem worse. I’m sure you agree that abuse is a MAJOR problem.
A flawed concept with no basis in classical Jewish thought.
It’s actually in this past week’s parsha – vatelech lidrosh es Hashem…
Wolf,
Hatzlocha in your new job!
Wolf,
Maybe for other reasons, maybe not, but not because your daughter’s at your table.
apy, Your grasping at straws here.
No, there’s a huge difference.
“No where in my post did it say anything about eating at the RY’s or Rebbi’s house.” (r-b)
Are their teenaged daughters somehow different? (apy)
He knows whether they are or not.
Don’t forget, the OP was suggesting mixed meals to encourage socializing. If a particular father knows his children, and his guests, and determines that they will avoid interaction, that’s an entirely different matter.
Sam2,
That is absolutely ridiculous. Someone should be happy with their spouse and know that they have different Yisronos and different Chesronos than everyone else.
You’re confusing idealism with pragmatism. Of course it would be ideal for everyone to be sameach b’chelko, but we should, on a practical, level deal with the frailties of human nature.
The yetzer horah doesn’t work with cold logic alone.
please tell me when I started a thread to bash or speak L”H on your other subjects. YOU owe me an apology DY. I’m waiting.
Please cite for me where in sefer Chofetz Chaim it says that L”H is only when starting a thread, not in continuing an existing discussion.
As for an apology, I wasn’t trying to insult you, I was trying to point out that you know yourself that, as ZK points out, it’s not L”H to discuss an issue when there’s nobody specific named (although the people at NASI are specific people so you probably owe them an apology).
If you mistakenly took personal insult, I apologize for the lack of clarity.
stamamen,
The S.A. doesn’t give specifics, he says that when it comes to separation, we need to be very, very (???, ???) careful.
aries,
DY, it is loshon horah because you are picking on women who dress in a manner that they choose to dress instead of just role modeling and asking your own kids NOT to dress that way. Or asking your own wives NOT to dress that way. What is the point of speaking badly about these women? Why be so judgmental? It is NOT nice seriously. You won’t solve the problem here and you are just venting pure loshon horah here.
So when you speak badly about Rebbes ->here, or people involved in the NASI project ->here, or Torah Umesorah, and for that matter, boys in general, ->here you think that you will solve the problem here, so for you it’s not loshon horah?
Here is another perspective…
From what I’m led to believe, the lack of tznius in these women doesn’t begin with maternity.
And to the men, stop looking at women!
Absolutely correct, but it’s not an excuse.
I have heard from numerous rabbanim that it is completely assur and thats if families want to eat over at each others they should farm away either the boys of girls…Really people havaent heard of this???
I have. It’s based on a pretty straightforward halacha in Shulchan Aruch.
aries,
Where did you see any loshon horah?