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I didn’t try it.
It also annoys me when someone tries to tag something, but messes up, so you see something like this:
That’s exactly my point, only I said it much better<em.
I do this all the time.
Sometimes I feel the only posts that matter are mine. LOL
I often feel the same way (except that sometimes I like mine as well).
yitayningwut,
So do I.
🙂
Both point were already addressed. See Mahara”m Shick I linked above that there is no reason to be mechalek between yayin and pas, as well as the IG”M from six posts back (click on the word “this”).
aries, and scissors,
I guess we’re talking about different things. I’m not referring to a yeshiva which rejects a child based only upon external appearances or family history. I’m talking about children who are not accepted because of the potential negative impact they might have on other children.
(My point to you, aries, was addressing the fact that you seemed to be complaining that some of us don’t see things from your perspective, presumably that of an advocate for the children who aren’t accepted to the school of their parent’s choice. I was pointing out that the schools and we are advocating for the children who are already in the school or will be accepted.)
I once heard a story about a school meeting where there was a discussion about expelling a student. The child’s rebbe related the heartfelt pleas he heard from the boy’s parents to keep him in the school. To which the principal replied “you didn’t hear the mothers crying to me that their children’s neshamos were being sullied by this child”.
I thought popa wanted the Starbucks crazy thread closed. Which one was it, pba?
How about “blind” or “deaf”?
A good kasha. I would differentiate by pointing out that mentally retarded people were looked down upon more than deaf or blind people, so it’s more comparable to a racial epithet.
Also, you didn’t address the chiluk I made, in terms of a secondary meaning.
You’re right, I kind of missed it.
Now that I look at it, your chiluk (and I assume you’re referring to the fatso comparison) would be true if people weren’t insulted when being called fatso. This is probably worse, though, because I imagine that someone having a developmentally disabled child would be whole lot more sensitive about it than if they had an overweight child.
All that having been said, whatever the reason, I think it’s considered PC to avoid the term, and considered somewhat crude to use it.
This from Halachically Speaking:
According to some poskim the bread of a non-frum
Jew is also included in the above issur and one is forbidden to eat it. 7
7. Refer to Pischei Teshuva Y.D. 112:1, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 72:2, Darchei Teshuva 112:5, Kaf Hachaim 11,
Igros Moshe Y.D. 1:45 who are not so convinced. Refer to Orchos Rabbeinu 3:page 79:40 quoting the opinion of the
Chazon Ish. Refer to Yabea Omer Y.D. 5:10, Halichos Olom 7:pages 92-96 in depth. In regard to those who were
is lenient. Also refer to Bishul Yisroel pages 412-413.
Here is the Mahara”m Schick.
The second Teshuva is clear that he is lenient on a Mechalel Shabbos without any other factors to consider.
I still disagree.
it is clear that his intention is not to minimize the leniency of the Mechalel Shabbos
I agree, his intention was not to minimize that din; it was to be matir the bread, but it’s still clear that he doesn’t allow his sevara to be matir all pas of a mechalel Shabbos doesn’t stand on its own.
aries,
It is horrible that so many of you are looking from the other perspective as are the yeshivas.
Why is it horrible for someone to have a different opinion than you?
If the child is frummer than the parents, the parents should do what it takes to get him/her accepted – even if it means difficult lifestyle changes. But the school has a right to keep its standards, for the benefit of all its students.
I agree with real-brisker. Does no one else smell a troll? (or just sesame chicken in brown sauce)…
ItcheSrulik: jenes. You should see the options that come up when I type “ItcheSrulik”! One is itchiness, one is britches, one is Lubavitcher, and one is unprintable!
Goq,
In the address bar (that’s where it currently says http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/paging-shticky-shtickerson-the-wagon-man-needs-your-help.
You can keep changing your IP address by logging in and out of free proxy websites that are a dime a dozen online.
That would be $0.008333333333333333, which, I guess, is close enough to free. 😉
Did you try fontzone? (not font-zone)
Oomis,
The fact that they had a baby does not make it muttar. if not for other factors (darchei shalom) it would still be called chinam.
Did you try Davka?
Stirah! (JK, I know what you meant.)
It hasn’t gotten controversial yet. Should I start by referring to the issur of lo s’caneim? 🙂
(Actually, it doesn’t apply here.)
Sam, “Not everyone agrees that the elbows and knees must be covered…”
Of those that don’t, 50% of their kids text on Shabbos.
If we weren’t so judgmental about the parents then many of these kids would be in frum schools and would not be texting on Shabbos.
Popa beat me to it, but I’ll also respond to the point of the OP.
How many kids really are in public school because the local cheder or Bais Yaakov didn’t accept them? There’s a lot of room between the frummest schools and public school! The parents who don’t dress according to chassidish or yeshivish standards of tznius rarely want to send to these schools. Their kids are in MO schools.
And those who do want to grow and send their kids to a school which has ideals which are frummer than their own, have a choice to make. Either get rid of the TV (for example) or don’t expect to be accepted.
A school has a right (some would say an obligation) to shield the kids from the more sheltered homes from being influenced, through other students, by the very same secular influences they are moser nefesh to keep out of their own homes. (I’m not referring to a case where there are no other frum schools; that’s a different story)
I blame the parents, not the schools.
And you start worrying about marrying off your kids.
Actually, it probably does. Go figure.
Racial terms are also descriptive, yet you agree they’re offensive.
I though it was hilarious. I searched for it under threads you’ve started.
You can’t request your threads up and down at will, y’know.
Is that in the Rules of the CR? (I know you don’t have to listen, but he can’t request?)
Sure. You can request what you like.
popa,
No, I didn’t mean to say they are bad. I meant that it is bad to be retarded.
Yes, I knew that (in fact , I even said it!)
I think the reason people think it’s offensive is because it is often used as a pejorative. If I call you “retarded”, I’m insulting you. Now if someone who has a developmentally disabled child hears that, they’re offended, because I’ve used a description of their child as a term of belittlement.
Sort of how your mother might feel if I started calling anyone in the CR who said something silly a “popa”.
Now do I get $20?
DY: you mean any word used to describe something which is actually negative will eventually be considered disparaging.
Actually, I meant a word used to describe something which is seen as negative.
Well, I think that is stupid.
Another good example. 😉
I agree we shouldn’t use words which describe ethnic groups which attained a negative connotation. But that is different, since the ethnic groups aren’t actually bad, they were just considered inferior for stupid reasons, and using those words perpetuates that.
But words for things that are actually negative, it doesn’t make sense to keep changing the word.
I lost you there. You seem to be saying that mentally disabled people are bad.
I know you didn’t mean that, but that’s what it sounded like.
The terms mental retardation and mentally retarded were invented in the middle of the 20th century to replace the previous set of terms, which were deemed to have become offensive. By the end of the 20th century, these terms themselves have come to be widely seen as disparaging and politically incorrect and in need of replacement.
In other words, any term used to describe something or someone in a negative way will eventually be considered disparaging.
Much like certain terms which describe members of various ethnic groups.
The terms mental retardation and mentally retarded were invented in the middle of the 20th century to replace the previous set of terms, which were deemed to have become offensive. By the end of the 20th century, these terms themselves have come to be widely seen as disparaging and politically incorrect and in need of replacement.
In other words, any term used to describe something or someone in a negative way will eventually be considered disparaging.
Much like certain terms which describe members of various ethnic groups.
the majority of Poskim… a Mechalel Shabbos does NOT create Bishul Akum.
What’s your majority? The machmirim include: PR”CH, PR”MG, Pischei Teshuva (113 aleph), CHZ”I, CH”S. You added R’ Elyashiv as well (I did’t see it inside.)
You mentioned the meikilim as: Tiferes l’Moshe, Pischei Teshuva, Yabia Omer, Halichos Olam, Tzitz Eliezer, and, sort of, Minchas Yitzchak.
So far, it’s even. I guess R’ Moshe would be the machria.
(My point isn’t really the precise numbers, it’s that the machmirim are not a daas yochid.)
The obvious reason is because Mumar may be Menasech
Actually, in this teshuva, R’ Moshe explains how it’s not because of that. He comes out that it’s based on minhag. Whether bishul would be included would presumably be dependent on what the minhag was.
“You haven’t explained why he needs another sevara to be matir a mechalel Shabbos’ pas”
He doesn’t
No, he writes: ???? ?? ????? ?”? ??????
You haven’t explained why he needs another sevara to be matir a mechalel Shabbos’ pas. If he holds l’maaseh that a mechalel Shabbos has the din of a Yid (I know he holds it in sevara), he should be matir even if it wasn’t difficult to hire other workers.
Where does he state that their halachos are intrinsically different?
Thirty years from now, when new chumras that I can’t even imagine will be the new norm; someone will write in the coffee room of 2041 about our time;
“Inasumuch as they didn’t keep halacha- yes, they were less frum.”
Yes, there will still be people writing stupid things.
Meanwhile, though, the people writing that are correct.
Imagine what the donut thinks about you!
Hello99, any comment?
You are actually missing the context; he’s contrasting all other issurim of maachalei akum with cholov akum. He mentions yayin because that’s where the acharonim are explicit.
No, I read it right. If you think it’s possible to read it the other way, you’ll still have a hard time explaining the first one.
Yet, his haskama is on the poster (and I know it’s legit). I don’t have access to ??”? ????? ?? to check.
Although not according to Rashi’s pshat. See Aruch and Tos. Harosh.
Brachos 11a:
??? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????????
Hello99,
I checked the Igros Moshe. It is not as you say. Here are the relevant quotes.
YD 1:45:
?????????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ???????? ???? ??? ??? ???”? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?”? ??????
He agrees with the sevara of the matirim, but is only willing to be mattir for bread in a commercial establishment, in conjuction with his earlier sevara.
YD 1:46:
????? ?????? ????? ???”? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????”? ?? ????????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????
Clearly, although he personally would be mattir, he does not do so in the face of the consensus of the Acharonim. (He is also clearly equating other issurim of maachalei akum with yayin.)
I’m going for humor here, no offense meant in any way. I apologize if I offended anyway.
Apology accepted.
(JK – I don’t think there was any apology needed) 🙂
Hello99,
This response from someone involved in the production of the poster:
Thanks for the mareh m’komos (B”A). I’ll check out the IG”M, bl”n.
I wasn’t disputing that there are sources l’hatir (TL”M brought in P”T, etc.), only that the tzad to be machmir is only a chumra.
r-b,
Why would it get removed
I might decide to change it. Or, a moderator might, but still leave the post. It’s hard to understand why certain links are allowed and others not, because different moderators are on duty at different times.
Marvelous Midos Machine 4 is great. Highly recommended. As a bonus, there’s a beautiful song sung by Baruch Levine.
I didn’t quote Wikipedia (or even see it). Probably, Wikipedia took it from the same source as I did.
Your quote, by the way, actually confirms that it was originally a folk tune, not a religious one.
Interesting question, though; if it subsequently used in a religious context, does it become assur?
Hello99 was referring to converting a church, not a tune.
Is it a merit to strive to daven without a siddur?
Not that I know of. Everyone should do what works best for them.
Hello99,
YD 53:4 : Yes you need a tlia, but it’s otherwise assur meiikar hadin. The term “?? ?????? ??????” is obviously only used where there is another approach, but still represents the basic din according to the one using it.
48:12: See Shach, who explains it’s a gilui milsa because there’s already raglayim l’davar. Sounds meikar hadin to me.
To me, a “chumra” means it’s optional. I don’t think one has a right to be meikel in these cases without additional cause.