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Health,
Why do you call an electric element or bulb a sofeik D’oraisa? It’s been accepted by most if not all poskim as aish D’oraisa.
Even if it wouldn’t be, the bishul of the cholent would still be D’oraiso.
You said a key word in your last post; if a posek says a kulo, it must be “Ousgehaltene”.
Yes, Health. 🙂
Soliek,
I just realized that I missed a post of yours from a few days ago:
DaasYochid: your and everyone else’s raaya rom whisket and beer is invalid because those were categorically paskened on by eminent rabbonim. its not that people stam paskened themselves that these items are categorically kosher…its that they were given a PSAK that these items are categorically kosher
There may have been rabbonim who were mattir many products in those days. I was not addressing the issue of following psak, I was speaking about the inherent kashrus.
Cheftza,
What are you referring to that I said earlier?
Hello99,
I don’t think the Sha”ch is a support or contradiction to the possible issur of a m”S, it’s neutral.
If the reason to asser the bishul or yayin of a mechallel Shabbos is a knas, as stated by the Chasam Sofer and others (knas meaning that he is given the status of a non-Jew for all dinim, lo plug) then the underlying reason for the issurim, chasnus, does not have to apply in order for the issur to apply.
Syag,
I wouldn’t have had you not posted here, because I would have thought you hadn’t noticed. Now that I know that you were aware of the situation, however…
JUST KIDDING!
Pba,
It’s on me, since they blocked my original account, not the one I created to “mimic” you.
Now that I’m unblocked, I need ideas on how to get blocked again so I can catch up.
Thanks to all who signed the petition.
this might be a case of zeh nehneh vleh lo chaser
One could make the same argument for copying CDs (IIRC, we’re in agreement that it’s wrong).
Zeh nehneh v’zeh lo chaser is not necessarily a heter, it’s a p’tur from payment.
Goodbye, popa, see you later.
Health,
Yes.
Soliek,
Then we have something in common, which I unfortunately can’t share in a public forum (it has nothing to do with personal issues). Are you reachable through that blog?
Scissors,
No ruach hakodesh required, it’s been mentioned before.
dash,
Don’t take my quote out of context and then attack me for it.
I wasn’t attacking you, I was agreeing with you.
pba,
Alternatively, stay by a different hotel which is close by.
Why is that any different than staying in the same hotel?
Hello99,
The Shach clearly says that Stam Yainam requires some connection to AZ.
We can go back and forth on this ad infinitum (ad v’lo ad bichlal 🙂 ), but he says no such thing.
I haven’t ignored it, I’ve said I would rather ask him personally rather than rely on a teshuvah in which I don’t know the context.
R’ Moshe clearly personally felt that it was only based on chasnus, yet in his teshuva never clearly paskens to be totally matir, in fact apparently only wants to rely on it with a tziruf.
Health,
The Aruch Hashulchan is only matir if it’s an employee, and one of the factors is that a Jew will likely aid in the cooking, which certainly can’t be said in this case.
I don’t know who your rov is or what his sources might be; the Shmiras Shabbos K’hilchoso clearly includes an elictric hot plate in the category of “aish”, and the IG”M holds that even a microwave can produce bishul D’oraiso, so even were we to find a source that a covered element is not aish, according to the IG”M it would still be bishul D’oraiso.
I was having a silly convo with another poster as a joke and one of the posters (who actually posts in this topic) made a big deal about it.
I can’t believe you’re defensive, not apologetic.
That being said, If I was at a hotel and learned that there was a private minyan, I would attempt to join.
That’s not the same as taking advantage of the caterer’s investment and intentionally booking where he booked a bunch of rooms.
ca – That was the previous round. no?
I don’t think ca realizes there was another round.
Soliek,
I figure 90% of the posters are gilgulim of old posters, but who were you?
There is a Rishon that holds -A goy cooking in a Jew’s house there is no problem of Bishul A’cum. So B’dieved in such a case you can be Someiach on this Shitta!
We don’t pasken like him (R’ Avraham, brought in Tos’ in Chullin), and you’d have to bring proof that we can be soimech b’dieved on a shittah we don’t pasken like.
in a crock pot (where cooking is only M’drabbonon because of electricity)
It’s D’oraisoh. The bishul is the same, and even turning on the crockpot is a d’Oraisoh since most poskim consider a heating element to be aish.
Yeah, I was an idiot as a kid.
Nothing has really changed since.
LOL (with you, not at you)
(and I am not including chassidim, who have a whole different hashkafa of dating, which works for them).
Many people who are non-Chassidim have a different hashkafa of dating as well, and it also works for them.
If you’re asking why you have to leave, it’s so that nobody ends up in the hospital. But call first, and follow their suggestion.
The Goq, I sincerely hope you are LOL WITH and not @ me.
LOL (with).
Does the arthritis only cause its misery when the sufferer goes outdoors? Is it the cold or the actual snow?
TheReader,
Good points. I have a hard time understanding how there are “lists” of acceptable products when anything can change without notice and often does. At least with a hecsher, someone is taking responsibility.
I feel really bad reading all these comments, encouraging me to get away with the kids from him. He is really a very sweet kind person when he is his usual self.
it’s the times that he’s not “his usual self” that are dangerous. So speak to Shalom Task force and ask them if it’s salvageable. If you don’t do the responsible thing, you will be responsible for anything bad which chas v’shalom happens to the children, even if at other times he’s sweet.
uneeq,
The Rm’a in 253-2 says even to a different fire is muttar.
As I quoted earlier,
??”? ?? ????? ??”?, ?????”? ?? ????? ?? ??”? ,??”? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???.
Re: hana’ah
MB also paskens (318-2) that there’s no issur b’dieved when there is a machlokes, so even though we don’t pasken that way, if the gedarim of maaseh Shabbos of a goy or Yid are the same, it should be mutar.
And unfortunately, I am just as “snappy”.
I hope that doesn’t mean physically abusive.
You really eat things with no hechsher?
You`re not suppose to, you know.
You should read the rest of the thread. Although I don’t agree with his defense, yitayningwut did defend himself.
Hello99,
I hope you had a nice Shabbos.
Uneeq,
Why only for Sefardim?
Hello99,
I believe the OU is probably being meikil with some sort of tziruf, as R’ Moshe does. I will bl”n try to ask R’ Belsky; I hope to see him at a chasunah in a few weeks.
You are making the m”S worse than the akum by attributing to the Sha”ch the possibility that he was menasech to A”Z. The Sha”ch, in fact was not reffering to a m”S at all so no inference can be made from his words.
The posek I referred to was not thrilled that the hechsheirim are meikil.
I would phrase it differently than you; many poskim are machmir, but there are grounds to be meikil.
Re: Hana’ah Mimaaseh Akum –
Are the gedarim for hana’ah from a goy the same as from a Yid?
Also, since according to the shittos that there’s no bishul after mB”D it would be a shvus d’shvus b’makom mitzvah, could we not at least be matir b’dieved?
It is inappropriate. It has nothing to do with who writes the song, it’s the song. And most of their songs today are blatantly expressing utter pritzus. Transforming a song that promotes such things is wrong. There doesn’t have to be an issur on it for it to be wrong. Write your own music.
It’s a sensitivity which it sounds like musicaldignity possesses (and you don’t). It’s just another form of assimilation.
Well said.
There’s a lot of room between Rav Ada and Reish Lokish before his teshuva.
You’ve relegated the mitzvah of hocheiach tochiach to Amoraim only through your “common sense”. Yes, you need a source for that.
BTW, the fact that the national hechsherim are lenient does not surprise me (in fact, before engaging in this discussion, I asked a posek how we pasken l’maaseh, and he told me that the poskim he knows are machmir l’chatchilah, but that the hecsherim are meikil). There is definitely what to rely upon, and their goal is to provide kosher food to as wide a public as possible.
I was not debating this issue from the perspective of a hechsher, rather from the perspective of an individual who wants to follow basic Halacha, without being unduly machmir, nor relying on kulos.
Along the way, it’s interesting to discuss the shittos of individual poskim.
I’m not sure the issue is the source of the music as much as the type of music. There are some very nice songs whose sources are non-Jewish (the popular tune to Maoz Tzur, for example, is from a German folk song) and some tunes which have Jewish composers, but the beat and overall musical style are directed towards and speak to the most base, animalistic parts of the human soul (nefesh hab’hami).
I would assume that what you refer to is the latter, since unfortunately that’s what is popular today, even in our Bais Yaakovs.
I think it’s wonderful that before disclosing this information you are taking into consideration the possibility that it might violate the halachos of loshon horah and hurt someone’s parnassah.
I would think that there would have to be a toeles to be muttar, and that simply telling your friends that these songs have a non-Jewish source would be pointless. They would probably listen to them anyway, and if not these, others, which are just as bad, regardless of who the composer is.
If you do have some influence over your friends, the toeles I can think of is to use the fact that they are dancing to the same music as the lowest parts of society dance to, in their clubs and at their parties, to demonstrate how low we have fallen (at least in regard to our musical tastes).
A teacher who has the genuine respect of your classmates might have a better chance of presenting this argument in an appealing way which could have a positive influence.
Hatzlocha.
to take him as an example of how to behave, one has to take on the conduct that made him praiseworthy
Source?
It doesn’t praise him or condemn him. I looked on the daf and the meforshim say nothing more about the matter.
Are you agreeing or disagreeing with Rav Ada bar Ahva?
But were people really ignorant back then
So I’m told.
or did they just not have the resources to ensure proper hechsheirus of their food?
Also true, but big yarei shamayim limited what they allowed themselves to eat.
Or were they more lenient with their kashrus standards?
That’s another way of phrasing it.
When did this happen? There are no current references to Hershey’s ‘N More cookie bars that I can find, I’ve only found from 6-7 years ago, so I suspect it’s been discontinued.
Yichusdik,
And I say this because I love you and every other Jew and it pains me to read words so full of anger and such readiness to pounce on another Jew’s perceived shortcomings.
I just want to let you know that your words seem to come across as anger-filled as well.
“a) food production was simpler then”
irrelevant…things may have been just as treif
And may not have been… I’m going on hearsay, nothing of substance.
Zahavasdad posted earlier that many brands of whiskey are widely considered kosher even without hechsher. That’s because their production is simpler than that of other products, and known to be innocuous. I’ve heard that many more foods were in that category many years ago. I’ve also heard that people were simply ignorant, and assumed things were kosher even though they weren’t necessarily. I suspect that there’s some truth to both of those ideas.
Whether their hora’as heter was somewhat legitimate depends on whether things were really kosher meikar hadin. I don’t have first hand knowledge.
Does that make me a da’as yochid?
And am I one of many who prefer Chrome?
Soliek,
Why would it have been okay to eat tarfus in the 1950’s?
My understanding is that
a) food production was simpler then
b) it took a while after things became more problematic for people to realize there was an issue.
There’s no question that someone who eats processed foods (with few exceptions, packaged chocalate bars not being one of them) is being mezalzel in issurim (or in a small minority of cases, grossly misinformed, see hello99’s post), and that “something is up”.
BTW, I think you used the word “dearth” incorrectly.
Back to the Sha”ch. You wrote that the reason for the issur of yayin shel mechallel Shabbos is because maybe he was menasech to A”Z. It’s hard to believe that he’s worse than the akum who is not oved avodas elilim.
I quote from the IG”M 8:
?”? ??? ?????? ???? ????, ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?”?, ??”? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?”? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??”?, ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????.
That Sha”ch is addressing a mumar for A”Z and doesn’t deal at all with a mumar for Shabbos.
Later in that teshuva, R’ Moshe writes:
??”? ?? ????? ??”?, ?????”? ?? ????? ?? ??”? ,??”? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???.
If, as you say, it were clear that the Sha”ch was toleh the issur davka on a chashash that he was menasech, then according to R’ Moshe’s own understanding that there is no chashash on a M”S, he should have brought that Sha”ch to definitively exclude his yayin from the issur.
I find Chrome to be faster.
Also, he make sno mention of any Minhag.
?????? ???? ?’ ??? ????”? ?????? ????
He is clearly referring to 1:45 and 46
He’s not. His talmid, Rabbi Moishe Dovid Lebovits, considered his opinion in the teshuva (45) to be, “isn’t so sure” (that it’s assur). I have another basis for knowing that it’s not based on this teshuva, but it’s not a citable source.
http://www.thehalacha.com/attach/Volume5/Issue15.pdf
??? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ????, ??? ??? ???? ????? ??
He would say that on the Mahara”m Schick and Lechem Haponim?
while the format is less than ideal and talking face-to-face is more productive, it does have advantages. This way, each side has time to look up sources and contemplate their position in between rejoinders, something difficult when debating in person.
In any event, while not a perfect venue, debating Torah certainly beats discussing mundane topics.
I agree (and I will try to review and contemplate that Sha”ch again 🙂 ).
???? ??? on your response in the “speechless” thread.
Also, he make sno mention of any Minhag.
?????? ???? ?’ ??? ????”? ?????? ????
He is clearly referring to 1:45 and 46
He’s not. His talmid, Rabbi Moishe Dovid Lebovits, considered his opinion in the teshuva (45) to be, “isn’t so sure” (that it’s assur). I have another basis for knowing that it’s not based on this teshuva, but it’s not a citable source.
http://www.thehalacha.com/attach/Volume5/Issue15.pdf
??? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ????, ??? ??? ???? ?????
He would say that on the Mahara”m Schick and Lechem Haponim?
while the format is less than ideal and talking face-to-face is more productive, it does have advantages. This way, each side has time to look up sources and contemplate their position in between rejoinders, something difficult when debating in person.
In any event, while not a perfect venue, debating Torah certainly beats discussing mundane topics.
I agree (and I will try to review and contemplate that Sha”ch again 🙂 ).
???? ??? on your response in the “speechless” thread.
it could be BOSSOR B’CHOLOV!! (Non-kosher gelatin and milk chocolate!!)
Gelatin is inherently problematic, but if made from a b’heimah t’meiah, would not cause basar b’chalav.
My point was other than a sticker, there is no difference, no separate runs…everything is exactly the same….
How do you know that?
Heckshers is suppose to be a service…it should be run like that…not a “for profit” business…
Why? Why is it not a perfectly legitimate way to take parnossah?
Real-brisker and Nechomah,
This was not my own observation, I found it by Googling “Hershey’s N’ More kosher.” If you Google “If you check out Hershey’s Kashrus page (yes, they have one)”, two matching results will come up. One of them is this thread (you don’t want that one 🙂 ).
No, he makes stam yaynom, not yayin nesech.
I forgot to show you part of the nusach of the letter in the beginning of IG”M 9, signed by Rabbi Tendler and Rabbis Feinstein:
?? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ???????? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ????”? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??????
???? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ????”? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??????