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Until someone defines this term (i.e. better in what way? What does being “better” mean?), the discussion at hand is pointless.
Good point.
many of the intros are goyish, you probably don’t even notice
I noticed. It’s a shanda, as RABBAIM pointed out. True, we’re desensitized to it, but that doesn’t make it right.
The problem isn’t so far from that of BTs, and here everyone agrees that they should be matched with their own.
Everyone?
Just have everyone ignore them.
Deadly Attraction
107 Trillion.
Add to that 152 million blogs, 25 billion Twitter messages that are sent out per year, 50 billion notices on Facebook per month, 2 billion videos viewed on YouTube per day, over 5 billion photos already posted on Flickr, another 36 billion pictures that are uploaded to another popular site each year, the over 366 million websites now in existence and millions more that are being added each year. The above information should give you an idea of how many billions of hours are being spent on nonsense or worse by the estimated 2 billion internet users around the globe. It should also bear witness to the terrible addiction which results from connecting to this universe of information.
In one extreme case, a couple in Korea would spend 12 hours a day away from home on the internet. They would run home once a day to feed their three-year-old daughter. She died of dehydration and malnutrition. There have been incidents of people who assaulted and even shot others for posting negative comments or embarrassing photos about them.
One 15-year-old shot his own father after his internet privileges were revoked. The problem of the internet being used by teenagers to attack and ridicule others and the resulting emotional issues has become so alarming that in 2006 the CDC (Center for Disease Control, a federal agency) called a conference to address the crisis.
While all these cases involve non-Jews, it is important to realize that we are playing the same game of Russian roulette as they are. The consequences cannot possibly lag far behind.
It has been documented in the medical world that internet users who are blocked access to the web suffer the same physical withdrawal symptoms as hard-core drug abusers. In one case, students were denied access entirely and 79% reported suffering severe edginess and depression. It would be extremely foolish for anyone to convince themselves that they are above internet addiction.
The Jewish world has suffered its share as well. In one case, several years ago, a man was spending night and day tied to his screen. His wife complained that she could not go on living with a husband like that and he would have to choose between the internet and his family. By then it was too late. He chose the internet.
But the situation does not have to be so extreme. Even those who do not drop out of life entirely find that the internet has them bound up sufficiently to materially interfere with their lives. When a parent sits down to supper with one hand holding the fork and the other his smartphone, from which he cannot unglue his eyes, that parent may be sitting with the family in a technical sense, but the children realize they are technology orphans. Their emotional needs cannot compete with the lure of the web.
This widespread irreverence completely undermines our chinuch. It is has eroded our most basic values and created an atmosphere in which nothing we preach is taken seriously. It is destroying us as a nation of servants of Hashem in a way that nothing we have ever faced before could have done.
Here comes the bride?
What if you install K-9 and give someone else the password?
Why must everyone judge a person based on the fact that they have non religious siblings?
Who says everyone does?
I say it is worse than shmutz.
Are you referring to the CR?
5 toes on a foot, but I liked Oomis’ better.
That’s why your only posting about 25% of what you used to?
Deadly Attraction
107 Trillion.
Admittedly, the vast majority of those are junk mail, receipts and automatic responses, but there are still plenty of messages left over to keep people busy all day.
Add to that 152 million blogs, 25 billion Twitter messages that are sent out per year, 50 billion notices on Facebook per month, 2 billion videos viewed on YouTube per day, over 5 billion photos already posted on Flickr, another 36 billion pictures that are uploaded to another popular site each year, the over 366 million websites now in existence and millions more that are being added each year. The above information should give you an idea of how many billions of hours are being spent on nonsense or worse by the estimated 2 billion internet users around the globe. It should also bear witness to the terrible addiction which results from connecting to this universe of information.
In one extreme case, a couple in Korea would spend 12 hours a day away from home on the internet. They would run home once a day to feed their three-year-old daughter. She died of dehydration and malnutrition. There have been incidents of people who assaulted and even shot others for posting negative comments or embarrassing photos about them.
One 15-year-old shot his own father after his internet privileges were revoked. The problem of the internet being used by teenagers to attack and ridicule others and the resulting emotional issues has become so alarming that in 2006 the CDC (Center for Disease Control, a federal agency) called a conference to address the crisis.
While all these cases involve non-Jews, it is important to realize that we are playing the same game of Russian roulette as they are. The consequences cannot possibly lag far behind.
It has been documented in the medical world that internet users who are blocked access to the web suffer the same physical withdrawal symptoms as hard-core drug abusers. In one case, students were denied access entirely and 79% reported suffering severe edginess and depression. It would be extremely foolish for anyone to convince themselves that they are above internet addiction.
The Jewish world has suffered its share as well. In one case, several years ago, a man was spending night and day tied to his screen. His wife complained that she could not go on living with a husband like that and he would have to choose between the internet and his family. By then it was too late. He chose the internet.
But the situation does not have to be so extreme. Even those who do not drop out of life entirely find that the internet has them bound up sufficiently to materially interfere with their lives. When a parent sits down to supper with one hand holding the fork and the other his smartphone, from which he cannot unglue his eyes, that parent may be sitting with the family in a technical sense, but the children realize they are technology orphans. Their emotional needs cannot compete with the lure of the web.
This widespread irreverence completely undermines our chinuch. It is has eroded our most basic values and created an atmosphere in which nothing we preach is taken seriously. It is destroying us as a nation of servants of Hashem in a way that nothing we have ever faced before could have done.
Oomis,
I agree that you don’t have to avoid a relative’s house because of an unfiltered computer, but don’t let the kids out of your sight.
I would say the same about non-kosher food with little kids: go, but don’t let them out of your sight!
Every (or almost every) parent think the same way about their kids, that they would never do such a thing. Some of them are right (you very well may be one of them) but some are wrong.
We’re not merely talking about a value system (although that’s obviously the most important thing), we’re also talking about the yetzer hora.
Browsing history, by the way, is very easy to manipulate, and doesn’t even need to be done. Have you ever heard of private browsing?
Filters will filter out alot more than just Schumtz.
That depends on the filter and the settings.
You lock your door, even though it takes longer to get in the house.
According to Pesach Kron, this website (YWN) needs a Filter and is no better than Schmutz
Do you agree with this statement?
I didn’t hear every drasha of his, so I can’t disagree that he said it.
In a nutshell, if they’re not frum, they’re not family.
Anyone I know who have non frum family were told by their roshei yeshiva and rebbeim to keep in touch, to whatever extent they are able to keep their children away from negative influences. In some cases, based on the sensitivity of the family, they are able to visit, and in some are able only to host. But to dismiss outright as a rule is unacceptable.
Whenever I see some frum kids go to relatives who have a TV in the house, The TV is the first thing that goes on. They go to the TV and stay there until they leave to go home
Those parents need to be more responsible.
Meaning…?
I’m wondering if everyone would keep to their positions. For example, you would probably say the same thing as you said regarding food, to visit but maintain vigilance that your kids are not exposed to material which doesn’t meet your standards.
Would those who said that unless there’s only kosher food available don’t visit, also say unless there’s only kosher entertainment available not to visit? More specifically, if there was an unfiltered internet connection or TV, would they insist that they be disabled, and otherwise not visit?
he certainly does not drink from the Kos shel Eliyahu Hanavi
The OP didn’t mention that.
You are driving down the highway and there is a big billboard right in front of you with Shmutz, There is no way to avoid looking at it as you cannot take you eyes off the road.
Billboards are not in the middle of the road, they’re off to the side.
I was at the asifa too and I DEFINATLY heard the Skullner Rav and the Rav From Belgium (Diznger ??…Sorry I forgot his name) condem the internet as the Tumah of Egypt and the Chochma of Behamois
… and therefore, since you think they’re too fanatical, we should not object to shmutz?
Hmm…
I wonder how this discussion would go if the subject were traife media instead of traife food.
Thems the perks.
Yep.
Yes its worse to be overweight or be a smoker, those things can kill you physically
I guess spiritual destruction doesn’t bother you. What a shame.
ZD,
Do you feel that being overweight or smoking is worse than viewing highly inappropriate material on the web (or anywhere else)?
ZD,
You haven’t addressed the statistics I showed you that many people are addicted to shmutz sites.
And although I didn’t hear R’ Krohn’s speech, there are certainly websites which are not referred to as “adult”, yet certainly are very problematic, YouTube is one of them, and social networking, which might have the #1 ratings, is very dangerous and was rightfully assailed.
ZD,
According to statistics which I read, 10% of the adult population in the US is addicted to shmutz, and double that number admit that they regularly visit those sites. The actual number (considering the fact that many won’t admit it) is unknown.
Sorry it took so long to get the stats; my filter blocks out a certain important keyword from my search.
And it’s worth it.
jbaldy22,
Please understand that my cynical tone was not directed at you, but at a poster who is in denial that there is an issue, as a pattern of railing against anything associated with chareidim.
I received an email from BHI, which is an organization led by R’Chaim Kohn Shlit”a, with a link to the brochure, so I am working under the impression that distributing this is a good thing.
Rav Reisman Shlit”a, in his pre Shavuos drasha, employed “scare tactics”. Many of the stories I pasted were from an article with Rav Viener Shlita”s byline.
I have no reason to think “scare tactics” won’t possibly save some families.
That’s even if you are correct that R’ Mattisyahu decided that Citi Field wasn’t the time and place for it.
jbaldy22,
Your position and zahavasdad’s position are not the same.
I am not claiming, nor did ever claim, that the problem begins and ends with the internet (for the umpteenth time). Talk about a straw man.
I don’t know why the brochure wasn’t given out by the asifa, I assume that you do, so please inform.
In terms of my own posts,
I often see them before others are approved.
In facts it was said here 10’s of marriages were destroyed by the internet,
Only 10’s? We all wish that were true.
I know ALOT more people who gets their parnossah
Internet for business use is not assur. Why do you keep implying that anyone assered it for parnassah, when that is not true?
Did the internet cause people to go OTD (This has been happening forever ever hear of the Haskala)
Yes, and yes.
Did the internet cause people to have financial troubles because they are in Kollel
There’s no reason for you to bring your anti-kollel bias into this discussion.
Did the interent cause the Shidduch crisis
Not as the term “shidduch crisis” is commonly used.
Did the internet cause people to Bittul Torah
Big time.
Did the Interent cause the abuse crisis
Probably not. Although it’s certainly possible that some abusers got ideas from the internet.
You make it seem as if the gedolim think that everything was perfect in the world until the internet came along. You know that’s not true, but I don’t understand why you can’t recognize that it has caused huge problems and that we must learn how to use it more responsibly.
I gave you the facts that the top 15 websites were not schmutz
That’s a very misleading fact. It says nothing about how much time is spent on shmutz, of which there are far more sites. It also doesn’t account for how much damage is caused by even a “small” amount of time spent on shmutz.
You should argue, according to your faulty logic, that abuse is not a big issue because most abusers have at least 15 activities which they do more often than abuse children.
People do not spend much time on shmutz websites, they spend alot more on sites like YWN
YWN isn’t even in the top 20.
In most of these cases there would likely be a problem with or without the internet.
Again, you made that up. You don’t see the problems (you’re not a rov or marriage counselor), so you’re projecting your wishful thinking on the facts.
I said people wish it would be the cause, because then it would be easier to ignore other problems in society such as our educational system amongst other things.</em.
Nobody is ignoring other problems. You just “wish” they were.
however the exaggerations such as the ones contained in the stories you have posted have to stop.
Actually, there are worse stories which didn’t make the brochure.
Stop underestimating the extent of the problem. Many, many families have been destroyed, and as long as people such as you understate the problem, it will be that much more difficult to help people.
And Yes I do think the “Schmutz” Problem is GREATLY exxaggerated.
How on earth would you know? You don’t. You’re just conjecturing that, because you don’t want anyone telling you what to do or not to do.
The rabbonim who deal with broken families and neshamos know that it’a a huge problem.
if you are going to talk to a member of the opposite gender online, you can just as easily get in your car and drive to a place where you can talk to a member of the opposite gender
Absolutely NOT TRUE.
It’s much easier online, and that’s the danger.
GAW,
In context, “other possibilities” that I referred to were the possible causes of the spiritual decline of these Yidden, not possibilities of how to view shmutz.
But to respond to your comment, you’re right. If someone wants to be bad, he can be bad. The point of all the talk of filters and such is for people who want to be good.
i think this is a common misconception that the internet and otd crises are interrelated – this is very much wishful thinking.
No one “wishes” it, and no one is claiming it’s the only or even primary cause. But to deny that it has caused major problems is to blind ourselves.
GAW,
Sorry, I don’t understand your response to my comment. Could you please explain?
In Almost all these stories you can subsitute ANY modern technilogical invention.
Except that the destruction of Jewish families and sullying of Jewish neshomos which we see today en masse wasn’t taking place before widespread internet access.
Add up all the time you “wasted” driving somewhere and then learn a “driving Mesechta”
You make it sound like that’s a bad idea. It’s actually a wonderful idea.
Considering I make my parnassah from this way
So, if you ran a gambling website, would that mean we shouldn’t convince people not to gamble online?
ZD,
Nowhere did she say she went to bad websites
It’s clear that they did from this quote:
This story says the problem was computers
It does suggest it, but even if in that particular case it wasn’t, in many others it is.
It is silly to ignore the very real message because there are other possibilities.
ZD,
I am not saying, nor is anyone that I know of, that everything on the internet, or on YouTube, for that matter, is treif. The problem is that a lot is treif, and the yetzer hora is ever present.
There’s also lots of time wasted here.
I don’t have access to YouTube, but I’ve seen the Munkacher Rebbe’s Shabbos speech.
i also think that this booklet makes lots of assertions which are simply not true
That’s a very broad, unsubstantiated statement. You’d have to be more specific to have that viewpoint taken seriously.
And exactly how did he “Waste his Time” He learned a valuable skill. You dont learn these things overnight, it takes time
I didn’t really get the point of that either.
These brochures assume that everyone on the web is using Scmhutz
Not everyone, but a lot of people.
Actually the top 10 website (Some are Social Media sites) arent Shmutz at all
That doesn’t mean that the top activity on the net isn’t shmutz related, because there are so many thousands of shmutz sites.
Also, some of the sites you mentioned are far from “kosher”.
The Terrible Virus
But wait, is it really just 1%? Or are we lulling ourselves into a false sense of security? According to those who work with troubled youths, the rate is far higher.
So say also those who deal with shalom bayis issues. And the dayanim who serve on the Bais Din for gittin. And the rabbonim who are involved in all of these cases and more. It becomes apparent that the true toll of internet casualties is higher probably shockingly higher, than any of us can imagine. What we have seen and heard is only the tip of the iceberg.
We must realize that to be honest with ourselves we cannot count only those who have openly dropped their former lifestyle as a result of internet exposure. There are many who continue to go through their daily lives as before, continue to go through the motions of maintaining the Torah observant way of life, yet inside they have rotted completely.
How many boys continue to attend yeshiva, how many girls continue to attend Bais Yaakov, yet their hearts and minds are plugged up by what they have learned elsewhere. The delicacies they are served by their rabbeim and moros cannot compete with the junk food and pork they gorge in secrecy. The young man who sits next to you in shul with tallis and tefillin may feel completely estranged from his own actions as a result of tasting from the illicit waters. These people are going through the motions, while on the inside they have hardened into something not Jewish.
If only we could have all internet users fill out a secret poll about how many times they chanced upon disgusting photos, lashon hara, immoral movies and clips, we would learn very quickly just how safe internet use really is. Better yet: How many frum internet users would willingly submit to having the log of all the websites they visited in the past 12 months publicized for the entire world to see?
Everyone knows that it is dangerous to log onto the internet without any antivirus protection. There are literally thousands of worms, viruses, Trojan horses and other forms of spyware that are out to get you. They steal your personal information, destroy your computer and expose you to criminals who are there to hurt you and take advantage of you. Does exposing yourself to even worse spiritual dangers deserve any less concern?
OK, just make sure you give it back when you’re finished. 🙂
I heard the following in the name of Rav Steinwurtzel, ZT”L. You’ll have to embellish it and apply it to the chosson and kallah according to their ma’alos.
Why is the bracha of “yotzer ha’adam” only said at sheva brachos? You would think that thanking Hashem for our creation would be said at least daily!
The Gemara in Eruvin (13b)says “???? ?????: ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? – Nimnu v’gamru: noach lo l’adam shelo yoser mishenivra” – it would have been more comfortable for us to not have been created. Why? The Maharsh”a says that because there are more negative commandments (365) than positive commandmets (248), we havea bigger chance of failure than success, so we would have preffered not to have been created.
However, this does not apply if we transform our mundane activities into acts of avodas Hashem. Even the simple act of eating can be a z’chus ifdone to strengthen ourselves to daven learn, perform acts of kindness, and other mitzvos.
At sheva bracos, when we recite the bracha of “Shehakol bara lichvodo” and recognize that ultimatly, EVERYTHING was created for Hashem’s honor, we are not limited to 248 mitzvos, we have more oppurtunities for good than bad, and can appreciate Hashem’s chessed in creating us, and recite the bracha “yotzer ha’adam”.
The mod let the link the second time through. It’s not in your first post -that’s why “I” Missed it.
Go back to that post:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/infertility-treatments-tzedaka/page/2,
and click on the words this article, footnote 6..
Sorry, I guess I should have put arrows to make it more clear.
but I understand your mistake now
You obviously don’t, if you still think it’s a mistake. 🙂
He didn’t mention the Gr’a argues on the whole Seif.
Good for him, because the Gr”a does not argue on the priority of Torah, only beis haknesses. I did see it myself, I’m not relying on that article, but he has some nice mareh m’komos, so I linked it.
According to you, Health, the author didn’t merely commit an error of omission, he switched the whole order around! You are entitled to argue if you want (in the realm of discussion; for halacha l’maaseh ask your rov), but I don’t understand how you can say he did a good job if you think he reversed the order of priority.
Pcoz,
What edition do you have, and who wrote the hagaos?