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I’m still waiting for your response re: Asifa Rabbonim.
I’m waiting for yours. You avoided responding to the part I called you out on (parnassah being assur) and instead wanted to discuss kollel vs, working, which is a topic for another thread.
Disclaimer: The following, also from the asifa brochure, is a work of fiction, and won’t prove anything to someone who thinks access to technology is not a dangerous thing.
Future e-Ramifications
Sunday, May 20, 2012
But Yitzy made sure to keep the hard facts carefully hidden from others. As far as his friends and acquaintances knew, he was successfully manipulating the opportunities offered by the internet to advance his fast-growing business.
May 2017
Still, Yitzy was careful to keep to his word. There was not one computer to be found in his home. None of the primitive hard drives, keyboards and processors were wired up together. That would be exposing his children to unnecessary risk.
May 2022
Sarah used her iShop to order her gown and jewelry for the evening. Nobody would have dreamed 10 years ago that someday you could sit in the comfort of your living room and view a complete catalog in 3D, just as if the item were right in front of you! The caterer, decorator and musicians were hand-picked, based on who had earned the best internet ratings.
Yitzy was reminded of the massive asifa of 10 years before when the rabbis had made such a big deal about the internet. Now they were arranging a follow-up asifa for the public to renew its commitment to avoid unnecessary use of the internet in any form. Over 100,000 Orthodox Jews were expected to participate this time around.
May 2027
Yitzy could tell the issue was closed and there was nothing further he could do. Fuming, he cut off the image of the principal without bothering to say goodbye. The Yom Tov passed in a blur and Yitzy frantically tried to find a new yeshiva for his son, but it seemed that they were all in communication with each other. Whomever he spoke to responded politely but firmly that there was no room for Yossi in their yeshiva.
Weeks passed and there was no improvement in the situation. Yossi was sitting at home wasting his entire day, from night until morning, with the newest device his father had given him a few months before. It was a fantastic phone, toy, player and much more all wrapped in one.
Of course, it was powered by continuous online interaction, but who was still concerned about that? After observing the change in his son, though, Yitzy was forced to face the sinking feeling that perhaps the yeshiva principal had been right after all. He sat back and thought the matter over. There was no other choice. He would have to find a way to get Yossi back into the same yeshiva. But if the principal was dead set against it, how could he accomplish that?
Their conversation was over, but Yitzy could not bring himself to move. He sat in the same place for a long while mulling over what the Rosh Yeshiva had just told him. Hardest of all was to admit that he, Yitzy, the self-proclaimed expert on modern technology, had erred drastically. The rabbis had been right after all, of course, and he of all people had been trapped by the yetzer hara into the most pernicious of errors.
May 2032
Now Yitzy could no longer find cheap suppliers for his products. With the gray market effectively closed, Yitzy tried competing directly with the wide range of new products and applications that flooded the retail market in the new Grid epoch. Massive fiber-optic cables now crisscrossed America, replacing the primitive telephone and cable lines that once transmitted messages and data. Now the entire Europe and North America relied solely on the unified cable service to provide VoIP. You could no longer get telephone service without being connected to the Grid. And that same cable delivered television and movies, including the most depraved. All you needed was a small device to access the information that was present. And despite all the efforts by responsible Jews to keep television and movies out of their homes, there was always the worry that one of the children would obtain any of various devices that would allow them to access everything.
Newspapers, that all-American pastime, had entirely disappeared to be replaced by iPapers that were updated hourly. And virtually any information you needed was now available in an instant using the TalkTalk technology. Anything you needed to know, find or buy could be presented as a verbal query and TalkTalk would tell you where to find out or whatever you wanted to know.
Recently, the new I-glasses had become an overnight sensation. Using a wireless connection to the Grid, these glasses provided you with all sorts of information about whatever building or site you looked at, such as what was inside and even the history of the building!
Even videos were almost entirely on their way out. Now holograms were used to give you the feeling of a live conversation with a person who was actually on the other side of the world. Teleconferences between executives now took on the feel of personal meetings as the realtime image of participants at widely distributed locations joined in holographic unity. When a major event was organized in Eretz Yisrael, Jews in America could participate fully sitting in their own auditorium. They watched a live hologram of the speakers as they delivered their message, complete with gestures, from thousands of miles away.
Yossi had long since left the picture entirely, and his minimal contact since then had only been to encourage his younger siblings to join his dissolute ways. Unfortunately, more than one of them had been convinced. Yitzy tried spending some time studying Gemara. After years of constant exposure to the ever-changing technology, however, he found that he could not concentrate on anything anymore.
May 2062
It was the voice of his wife Sarah, who sounded very concerned.
Bpt,
Are there more ladies’ clothing stores in BP, or men’s? How about in Lakewood?
On MBD Let My People Go, There’s a song called Golus Mitzrayim which begins, “By Paro in Mitzrayim”. It’s a gorgeous song; maybe that’s the one you mean. He also sang it at one of the earlier HASC concerts.
I assume you mean the haircut website. It’s not mine, but I helped (in a very small way) to get it up.
As far as Ruach Revival, If you find Feif’s email address, I’m sure he can send you the link.
Feif,
Did you get it (I rarely check the email address I sent it from, which is just for CR stuff)?
From a one time convo -I don’t think you can make any inferences about s/o.
Agreed.
The discussion is still valid, though, in a general sense (which is how I treat all discussions here, because you can never know what’s real and what’s made up).
Feif,
I asked a mod to send you a link to three Ruach Revival albums. Did you get it?
I would say that Diabetes, High Cholestoral , High Blood Pressure, Obesity , Heart Disase which can be caused by food and certainly if you have these maladies you need to watch what you eat, is VERY destructive to a frum marriage
And therefore we shouldn’t be concerned about the destructive affects of internet abuse? I still don’t get this point of yours, which you keep repeating.
Yes, there are other bad things in the world. We should do something about them as well. But don’t therefore ignore what is a HUGE problem.
it is not an “internet addiction” and as a psychologist just dealing with the internet portion of the issue would be a grave mistake.
Of course there might be underlying causes which should be dealt with, but clinically, it is treated as an addiction (12 step).
i can just imagine what my boss would say if i would want to email my history to someone
They don’t send out lists unless inappropriate sites are visited. Contact Web Chaver for confirmation.
I don’t know too much (anything, actually) about webscraping, but why would you need to scrape porn sites? Filters are customizable and don’t have to be whitelists.
What is your definination of a site that needs to be “Filtered”
Pesach Krohn defines YWN and VIN as sites that need to be “Filtered”
Others have claimed that FB and Twitter need to be Filtered
One Satmar Rebbe claims YAHOO needs to be filtered
Other Gedolim claim THE ENTIRE INTERNET needs to be filtered.
How about Godaddy, They are a Domain Registration Site , but use Schumtz methods to advertise. Should GoDaddy be filtered?
So your solution, since there is not a consensus, is that no filter should be used? That’s a senseless argument.
my Kollel cousins do have this disdain or work
That’s not something I agree with.
and consider it a punishment
It is – B’zeias apecha tochal lechem is a curse.
they certainly do not look positively upon it as a a mitzva asseh in the same vain as they do putting on Tfillin
You do?
GAW:
That’s not the only thing you said.
internet addiction implies that people who go on filtered internet would be no different
There are definitely two aspects to it; on type of addict would go to SA.
The type you refer to, who is only on “kosher” sites, is not destroying his neshoma as badly as the first (so I wouldn’t say “no different”) but may still be causing himself and his family considerable damage through his behavior.
the people who think theirs nothing wrong with the idea probably thought it before. People don’t change their minds so quickly… unless they weren’t strong on their opinion in the first place.
You’ve just made an argument for nothing ever causing a Kiddush Hashem or Chilul Hashem.
@DY it is not at all semantics because such addictions existed before the internet calling it an internet addiction is not factual and is incredibly misleading.
It absolutely is semantics because countless people have become addicted only because of internet access, especially unfiltered, and regardless of whether the underlying disorder existed before the internet, the cases of addiction have increased manifold since the advent of the internet.
Getting technical, based on the opinion of some psychologists (not all) does nobody any good.
Recognizing the danger, however, is an important step to prevent more people from falling.
jbaldy22,
It’s silly to get into semantics. It’s widely recognized that the behaviors we are referring to are addictive. People with problems such as Boobie’s husband suffers from are referred to therapists, and 12 step programs are implemented.
I didn’t say she didn’t hear correctly. I said maybe she/he “Meant premature”. The Shadchan possibly used the wrong word.
Then you should have directed your comment to the OP, not me.
Someone asked how to say no,
And there were over twenty posts between that and yours.
and I responded to the question.
You didn’t give instructions how, as the OP requested, you merely repeated the word no.
There should be an Asifa to promote the concept of Asay Licha Rav.
Go for it.
It happens to be, that at the CitiField asifa, it was stressed than any internet access should be approved by one’s rov.
“And you know as well as I do that it (Flatbush Asifa)never would have happened without the CitiField asifa.”
Because it would have been unnecessary.
Unnecessary? Tell that to the thousands upon thousands of people who have gotten rid of unnecessary internet access and/or installed filters and monitoring programs.
unfortuantly if it wasnt the internet it would have been something else
In some cases, that’s true, and in some cases it’s not. Even in the cases where it’s true, internet access often makes things worse.
The internet did not create the yetzer hora, but is his powerful and dangerous tool.
For the record, most of what I posted here was taken straight from the brochure which was intended to be distributed at the CitiField Asifa. None of the stories involved me personally, nor anybody who I know personally.
A searchon OU’s website shows 320 Godiva products.
A search on Kof-K’s site (using company name) shows nothing.
Feif:
I found Ruchaynu. I need to convert it to MP3, and then hope that a helpful mod can facilitate file sharing (this has not been available for many years). Stay tuned.
*you’re
Two different plants.
Nah, they both came from Theobroma cacao.
How about Danning the Shadchan L’caf Zecus? Maybe he/she meant to say “Premature”?
How about danning the OP l’kaf z’chus that she heard correctly? 🙂
APY,
You have a habit of commenting without saying what your commenting about. No to what?
Shield Star K aka Kosher Technical Konsultants is not on the cRc list. They claim to be completely Orthodox. Needs further research.
I avoided the word never, but for the most part, I wouldn’t (didn’t actually).
I’m tempted to tell you that it’s appropriate for a shadchan to shame someone into another date, just so I won’t have to hear from you again. 🙂
However, as I posted earlier, I don’t like that the shadchan called her immature. There’s a difference between pressure (or nudging, as I called it) and name calling (or shaming, as you call it) which is offensive , and in the long run, counterproductive.
Looking back at the OP, the shadchan said that saying no is a little immature, which although might be unwise to say, is not the same as saying that the girl is immature.
Yitayningwut,
True 🙂
Csar,
People I trust use Kellogg’s, and it appears on lists which I consider trustworthy. Nevertheless, one can’t extrapolate that the hechsher is reliable, because it might be okay despite, not because of, the hechsher.
I actually have no specific knowledge about that hechsher, I don’t mean to imply that it’s not reliable, just that the general acceptance of Kellogg’s shouldn’t be a hechsher on the KVH.
Popa,
I wouldn’t trust myself on how I feel after one date (barring exceptional circumstances, such as clear hashkafic differences).
Being a shadchan is tough, because some people need nudging (I don’t do much shadchanus because I don’t do the nudging part well), but when you do, you get blacklisted on YW.
There are a lot of happily married couples who credit the shadchan’s stubborness for their shidduch.
JB,
I retract my accusation that you advocated unfiltered internet. I looked back at a different thread, and in your posts, you merely defended your own use of it, based on your own particular case. Other posters defended it on principle, but you didn’t. Please accept my apology. (BTW, if it were me, I wouldn’t discuss it publicly, because the majority of people who have unfiltered internet do not have a legit excuse.)
you had me making recreational use of the internet equal to business uses
You put them in the same sentence; I would have put it in a different universe.
saying that i believe everyone should have unfiltered internet
I never used the word “everyone”. But you are defending it, aren’t you?
I disagree with Popa. Too many people drop a shidduch after one or two dates for invalid reasons. This is NOT, contrary to what some other posters have written, a drastic, life altering decision (unless the shadchan is right, and it works out).
I also disagree with the shadchan calling you immature, even if she’s right.
Moderator, thanks for letting this one through.
Q: Why do the Seminaries accept so many applications with the
non returnable fees when they know they can only accept only a small amount of the applicants?
A: This fee could be $150 or more!!!!
Seriously, if you know this going in, you have no complaint. Besides, if you’re willing to shell out 20k plus, why are you complaining about another $300? It’s just part of the expense of this perceived necessity called sem in EY.
Oh that. Simple, really. Its the expected side-effect of allowing our boys to abdicate their true role, and allow our girls to assume the mantle of being the breadwinner.
Therefore, the natural outcome is, our boys turned into girls (pointy shoes and all).
Nice theory (not really), but males in the greater society are much more into fashion than was true historically; it’s not just “our” boys.
Do you work for any of the organizers?
No
I think you’d be a great asset to any such organization.
I guess not, because I don’t seem to be convincing anyone here. 🙂
Many of the speakers at the asifa admitted they never used the internet, They were only repeating “What they were told” They of course were told there is Schmutz there and its terrible.
They were told Blogs have terrible Loshon Harah and terrible things against the Gedolim
They were told People can buy things with a click of a button on Amazon and ebay faster than you can say a Bracha.
They were told marriages were destroyed by FB and Twitter.
They were told correctly, then.
I seriously doubt they were told there are people who make incomes off eBay and Amazon. That you need Blogs, FB and Twitter to promote your items and make sales . That you can make money on Blogs, FB and twitter by managing peoples social media pages.
I will ask again, as I asked about your Ebay comment – are you defending use of social media by sellers, such as yourself, or by all people, so that you can make parnassah?
If the former, it’s not something I can answer simply, since I don’t know enough about social media to know if it can be safely used the way you describe.
If you mean the latter, that’s like saying we should defend gambling so that people can make parnassah from casinos.
I heard the statment “We are clicking ourselves into vegetables” , Well People “Clicking” is how I make money.
Maybe they weren’t talking about you. Undoubtedly, many have clicked their way into oblivion. Should the rabbonim ignore this so as not to make you uncomfortable?
but ALOT of people, In fact probably MORE than are “Schmutz addicts” make part of all of their parnassah from the internet
Again, for the umpteenth plus time, THEY DIDN’T ASSER INTERNET FOR PARNASSAH. Why do you keep insisting that they did?
again with the straw man argument i am sensing a pattern here.
The only pattern I see here is your misrepresenting my opinion and then saying I am creating a straw man.
if you notice i was in favor of the flatbush internet asifa and very much appreciated the way it was arranged how the speeches were coordinated and that it was very SOLUTIONS oriented.
And you know as well as I do that it never would have happened without the CitiField asifa. The first asifa, for practical considerations (my conjecture) ended up being merely a catalyst for future asifos and solution oriented programs (hotlines, technology centers, etc.).
if that is their reason they are not intelligent people i think it is better to assume that they don’t fully understand the situation</em.
Why can’t you contemplate a third possibility, that you’re wrong? That’s what emunas chachomim is, accepting their words even without fully understanding.
You will convince very few people by being a kanai.
Kanai? Posting on YWN? I don’t think you know what a kanai is.
If you aren’t certain of its reliability, then it cannot be consumed.
I assume you only eat from your own shechita.
Since when did yeshivish guys dress so shpitz and cool and very into fashion with their very tight pants (how do they walk in them), pointy shoes, shpitz hair, etc.
I guess you didn’t get my point. You can define yeshivish however you want, but in my book, those guys aren’t yeshivish.
Want to take that back?
Not unless you can clarify your statement (in which case, I will gladly take it back and apologize).
YOU are putting words into my mouth.
I am not the one who wrote, and I quote (emphasis mine), “the entire concept of Parnassa in general, and specificly outside the insular community, as a big b’dieved, if not outright assur.
Which words did I put in your mouth?
I asked a shaila and i was allowed
Did you also ask whether you’re allowed to advocate for unfiltered internet on a public website?
i feel that there are certain rabbonim who because they are not fully aware of what people are going through are more than a little callous with their language.
Or maybe they know what they’re doing, to convince as many people as possible to avoid the terrible fate that they have seen many go through. Why should you assume they don’t have a valid reason?
to say it is not difficult for people is silly
Which is why I don’t recall anyone saying that.
I’ve also forwarded a copy of the email from the BHI subscription to the YWN moderation email address.
Have the author post on his website that he releases the copyright, and we’ll post it. Sorry.
No problem – understood.
Google “Yizkor pledge” or go to http://www.businesshalacha.com/content/business-weekly-previous and download shlach 5771
I really don’t care for the item.
The item is not what you hold a grudge about, it’s the broken promise.
Is cRc, Chicago, reliable?
My contacts tell me that it’s a solid organization, and that their list of hechsheirim is used as reference by many kashrus organizations.