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PBA,
#1 should have precluded a #2.
This is not a glatt issue with a simple answer.
According to your own moshol, it is. Should the people holding up the dam get up, because others are too simplistic to see that they are averting catastrophe?
Are we having elections? (IOW, I don’t see anything productive coming out of this discussion.)
Who even says he’s a mechalel Shabbos? Aren’t we mechuyav to be dan l’kaf z’chus that he doesn’t perform until after tzeis?
And what’s wrong with him performing during the nine days? He’s not doing it for fun, he’s doing it for money.
That’s just my smart-aleck way of poking fun at the bochurim that are not doing the job they were sent here to do.
Yes. I know.
If they had less carefree time on their hands, and were as focused on cementing a career as are their female counterparts, they’d have less time to spend preening.
Or, better still, if they were focused on avodas Hashem.
Sorry, I misstated. The ??? ????? quotes the ????? ????? ????? in R’ Chaim’s name.
ROB,
I gave you my choice- be free to learn and avoid the army but dispense with the financing.
That choice is not currently available. The chareidi yeshiva bochur/yungerman is, for all intents and purpose, barred from anything else other than full time enrollment in yeshiva because the army is spiritually toxic, and he can’t work without having served.
What you are essentially saying is, “I won’t allow you to earn money, and I won’t support you”. You can’t have it both ways.
You also are in stark disagreement with the gedolei Yisroel who consider the large number of yeshivaleit learning today to be a great z’chus which protects the whole tzibbur, and that learning is certainly worthy of financial support either way.
Sam2,
R’ Chaim is also quoted in the sefer ????? ????? ?????, quoting the sefer ??? ?????, as giving precedence to a hat (and it specifically says hat).
I know, likut seforim aren’t always reliable, but when you have multiple sources, there’s more credibility.
Wolf,
No, not based on actual observation, because they generally only saw the defect after the animal died.
Obviously, if a high percentage of animals which had a visible halchic defect lived more than a year, that would make the position of “treifa eina chaya” untenable. Since you likely agree that Chaza”l weren’t simpletons (although we might disagree about their infallibility in matters of metzius), I think we can assume that this is not what occurred.
Surely there is more to this question. Isn’t the obvious answer, to go home, get your hat and jacket, and daven with the next minyan?
Correct. The question assumes that there is no later minyan available.
Although I would personally wait for my hat and jacket even if it meant davening b’yechidus (as per my R”Y, an adam gadol and posek, who told me so), there are certainly grounds to argue. Either way, you are correct that according to all of the opinions mentioned, one would be required to go get his hat and jacket and find a later minyan, and not daven at a more convenient minyan without his hat and jacket. Tzitz Eliezer, however, has grounds to be meikil further, based on the fact that it is no longer typical to wear a hat in front of a human king.
Let me get this straight – you believe that oen should daven b’yechidus WITH a hat, rather than in a minyan without one? We are always taught to daven in a minyan, because while our own zechuyos may not be sufficient for Hashem to answer our tefilos with a “yes” it may be that someone else who is davening is VERY worthy, and in his zechus Hashem will show Rachamim to the less worthy person as well.
It’s okay, Oomis, you don’t ned to wear a hat to daven. 🙂
And yes, this is a serious shaila. Although Rav Elyashiv is quoted as saying that it’s more important to daven b’tzibbur, R’ Chaim is quoted as holding the reverse, and he is not the only one who holds this way.
MorahRach,
I happen to agree that pointing out a silly grammatical mistake is disruptive to a thread, (and I think, although I could be mistaken, that the comments regarding the grammar of your OP were meant to highlight this) and could be hurtful if the thread is about a sensitive issue, or if the object of the correction is sensitive.
It’s interesting that you were not referring to the specific poster whose grammatical correction you objected to in a recent thread.
Mazel tov on the baby, have much nachas, and enjoy the trest of your summer as well.
I have to come to PBA and choppy’s defense here. I do not think in any way that they invalidated MorahRach’s feelings.
I actually understood their comments to be doing the reverse.
I have one question, though. Wouldn’t this thread hurt the feelings of those who correct others’ grammar?
Wolf,
Maybe I wasn’t sufficiently clear, so I’ll restate:
Not necessarily – the machlokes could be what threshold of probability of death would *halachically* be considered “chaya” or “eina chaya”.
But what BHWB was refering to is the undeniable uptick in fashion on the mens side of the mechitza.
I agree that there is (although you’re right that it’s not apparent where I daven), but I think it’s baseless to assume that, “Its the expected side-effect of allowing our boys to abdicate their true role, and allow our girls to assume the mantle of being the breadwinner.”
As far as davening ‘beyechidus’ being better than davening with the tsibbur without a hat (or even a jacket) this is truly an astonishing opinion and I daresay that something was lost in the translation (as these are not Rav Kanievsky own words)
This sounds very weird. I’m not a big posek, but I am quite certain also that davening with a minyan outweighs the importance of wearing a hat and jacket.
Not so astonishing or weird. As my R”Y put it, it’s a balance between the inyan of tefillah b’tzibbur and the inyan of k’vod malchus shoayim (my R”Y felt that k’vod malchus shomayim is more important, and that, indeed, one should wait until he has a hat even if he will lose out on tefilah b’tzibur).
I’ve seen quoted in R’ Elyashiv’s name (he should have a refuah sheleimah), that tefillah b’tzibur takes precedence over wearing a hat and jacket.
Obviously, if someone lacks appreciation for how a hat and jacket reflects k’vod malchus shomayim, he won’t begin to appreciate that it’s even a shaila.
Treifa Chaya, Treifa Eina Chaya. Is that not a Machlokes about a Metzius?
Not necessarily – the machlokes could be what threshold of probability would be considered “chaya” or “eina chaya”.
Oomis,
I personally do not want to see chareidim or Kollel men in the army, but to be honest, who exactly do you think DID serve in the Jewish army in the days of Moshe Rabbeinu and our shoftim and neviim?
There’s not much of a comparison – those were accomplished talmidei chachamim, who were not in any spiritual danger from joining the army, and whose primary occupation, even during wartime, was learning (consider the encounter between the malach and Yehoshua).
Contrast that with the present situation, that developing Torah scholars are being threatened with losing the ability to learn and develop, and be put in a spiritually toxic environment.
Many people, especially the non-frum Jews in E”Y, feel great resentment of those who have never served. They could not care less that the Yeshivah bochurim unquestionably provide a great spiritual shemira for klal Yisroel. They don’t GET that. All they see is many able-bodied men who do not have to put their physical lives on the line in the same way that is required of THEM. If we are to be intellectually honest, we should be able to understand their frustration, even if we disagree with their objections.
I think most chareidim do understand their perspective, but don’t give it much appreciation because it’s based on a non-Torah and in many cases anti-Torah perspective.
Do they understand our perspective, as you put it, “that the Yeshivah bochurim unquestionably provide a great spiritual shemira for klal Yisroel”?
Maybe some do, but for the most part, the anti chareidi venom which I’ve seen spewed in the media not only doesn’t get this point, but doesn’t even grant the chareidi tzibbur the benefit of assuming that it sincerely believes in the power of shemira which learning Torah provides.
Rabbiofberlin,
Let me quote some of your statements and tell you why I disagree with your approach.
“it would also mean that the avreichim give back to the klal what they received.”
“It perpetuates a lifestyle of not giving back to the tsibbur and it keeps idle a tremendous amount of potential in every sphere of life.”
“I know firsthand tremendous attorneys and accountants who are bnai torah and contribute much more to klal ysroel now than if they were kollel yungeleit.”
These statements, implying that those learning are taking, rather than giving, show that your worldview does not give the primacy to Torah that it deserves, despite all of your disclaimers.
Interjections,
With some minor changes to protect the privacy of the individuals involved, the two stories I related were told to me as true stories.
PBA’s story, with a slight variation and without the ending, actually happened. (But not to him…yet.)
A guy was seriously dating two girls and decided on girl A. Problem was, when he proposed, she turned him down. So the next night, he got engaged to girl B.
My great aunt (grandfather’s sister) was seeing two guys. Guy A told my grandfather that he was about to propose. My grandfather liked guy B better, so he told him to hurry and propose before the other guy does (which he did).
Sam2,
See ??”? ?????? ?”?. ??”? ?? ??”?.
Coffee addict, what are you talking about?? You can not live in a country and openly disobey the laws and defy the government and the majority of the population and expect no negative consequances for your actions!
If it’s a question of (what the chareidi population sees as) Hashem’s will, or what the government and the majority of the population want, you can’t expect the chareidi population to follow the latter, regardless of your personal opinion of what Hashem wants. Even with anticipated negative consequences.
Hello99,
Install chrome, and then install the AdBlock extension.
@JB,
The author is making a very valid point, even if you don’t like his wording, the the potential savings from the better pricing online could easily be offset by the tendency to overspend because of the tendency to overbuy.
It’s actually a very narrow point, which merely addresses one possible advantage of having internet access.
The Lakewood “takanos” specifically address the fact that better pricing online is not considered parnassah, and I believe that this may be the reason.
I second ICOT on the Concords. They are available at The Hat Box.
GAW,
You’ve still got it wrong, but I’ll drop it as well. I’ll be glad to explain – on a different thread.
Re: Dallas
I figured I’d surprise you with that one. FTR, I never saw it, but it was a big topic of discussion back then, and is still a template for cop-out storytelling.
Responsibility to serve – without the politics
The irony of the thread title is how politically charged the OP’s opinion is.
You’re welcome.
Popa,
Aren’t most of the syrups used in Starbucks flavored coffees certified by the OU?
Malignancies of the Mind
The science fiction books and films that present virtual realities in which figures from the computer screen jump out at you and attack in real life are no longer fiction at all. In a very literal sense, all of the vices humans have uncovered over the millennia are now attacking internet users daily, jumping out at them from the screen and in many cases going on to destroy their personal lives.
Irreverence
In this context, it can be said without hesitation that the internet presents by far the greatest challenge to the authority of our Torah leaders today. Our nation has been guided throughout its history by our leaders, those individuals who form the unbroken chain of Torah legacy beginning with Moshe Rabbeinu at Har Sinai. The Torah commands us to act upon the guidance of our leaders, who take their advice from the words of the Torah.
Even if it were not an article of faith, history shows that our rabbonim have not let us down. The Torah leaders have guided us on how to respond to every attack, problem and crisis that we have faced during our long and often difficult existence. Only in the merit of our Torah and the bearers of its flag have we survived the incredible physical and spiritual dangers of the past 3,000 years.
The internet is an open and limitless domain. Every user potentially puts himself directly in touch with the most depraved minds on the face of our planet. These are people we would be scared to converse with face-to-face, yet in the sterile world of virtual reality they may become teachers, mentors and closest confidents.
@JB,
It doesn’t claim most. The point it’s making (and I don’t need to defend it because I didn’t write it) is that even some who feel they are saving money are actually spending more than they otherwise would. And it’s not making the claim that there’s no over-consumption in stores; just that there’s more over-consumption online.
You are not allowed to touch muktzah items on shabbos.
There’s actually a gemara Yerushalmi which says that (not clear if it only means when the object will move).
Irreverence
In this context, it can be said without hesitation that the internet presents by far the greatest challenge to the authority of our Torah leaders today. Our nation has been guided throughout its history by our leaders, those individuals who form the unbroken chain of Torah legacy beginning with Moshe Rabbeinu at Har Sinai. The Torah commands us to act upon the guidance of our leaders, who take their advice from the words of the Torah.
Even if it were not an article of faith, history shows that our rabbonim have not let us down. The Torah leaders have guided us on how to respond to every attack, problem and crisis that we have faced during our long and often difficult existence. Only in the merit of our Torah and the bearers of its flag have we survived the incredible physical and spiritual dangers of the past 3,000 years.
The internet is an open and limitless domain. Every user potentially puts himself directly in touch with the most depraved minds on the face of our planet. These are people we would be scared to converse with face-to-face, yet in the sterile world of virtual reality they may become teachers, mentors and closest confidents.
Again, I’m not arguing that there aren’t grounds to be meikil, or even that R’Moshe ZT”L wan’t toleh the din on whether the issuris shema yaachil or chasnus.
I’m just pointing out that there are acharonim who are machmir even with the issur coming from chasnus.
Malignancies of the Mind
The science fiction books and films that present virtual realities in which figures from the computer screen jump out at you and attack in real life are no longer fiction at all. In a very literal sense, all of the vices humans have uncovered over the millennia are now attacking internet users daily, jumping out at them from the screen and in many cases going on to destroy their personal lives.
JB,
What doesn’t follow about over-consumption?
ZD,
If the IDF would make the necessary accommodations (as per uneeq’s post), the issues you bring up wouldn’t exist.
Don’t blame the chareidim, who are doing what they need to, under the circumstances. Blame the Israeli government.
However, since most Rishonim only bring the sevara of chasnus, and this does not apply to a mumar the gezeira would not apply.
This is an oversimplification. There are sevaros, said by big acharonim (as mentioned earlier in this thread), to be machmir even according to the rishonim who hold the reason for the gezeiro is chasnus.
Societal Breakdown
The rise of social networking, blogs, chat groups, and even texting all threaten to destroy the traditional relationships that are still so vital to our societal wellbeing. Family and friends are forgotten as people come to rely more and more on the companionship and approval of their virtual counterparts. But these companions are only a superficial, false substitute for the healthy relationships we still need.
The internet is presiding over the breakdown of our family, friendships, and society as a whole.
Depravity
[this was shortly after the Holocaust from which the Rosh Yeshiva escaped]
To this Torah giant, a forbidden sight was worse than death.
Unfortunately, there have been innumerable stories of people who have not stopped at seeing. These were individuals who would never have dreamed of compromising their lives and characters in such a manner before they began using the internet. In recent years the dayanim who deal with gittin have begun
to deal daily with divorces in which the internet was the root cause.
The element of anonymity that the internet provides allows people to bypass the natural, inborn shame they would normally feel when involved in inappropriate behavior. Therefore, Harav Shmuel Wosner, a senior posek of our generation, ruled that one must observe the halachos of yichud, seclusion with a member of the opposite gender, in regard to the internet.
Negative Character Traits
Criminality
There is much more that we have not touched on yet in the limited space available here. We have not even touched upon the internet as a gathering for criminals, cults and worse. It is a means by which innocent people are unwittingly trapped, and cheated. Copyright infringement and piracy are a reality every nanosecond. Gambling has shattered the lives of too many upstanding individuals within our own communities.
Conclusion
It must be underscored that the internet is still in its infancy. The web first became available some 20 years ago and only became popular in the Jewish world more recently, over the past decade. The potential for it to overtake our lives and society entirely in the foreseeable future cannot be underestimated.
By following the call of our leaders, our gedolim and rabbonim.
Malignancies of the Mind
The science fiction books and films that present virtual realities in which figures from the computer screen jump out at you and attack in real life are no longer fiction at all. In a very literal sense, all of the vices humans have uncovered over the millennia are now attacking internet users daily, jumping out at them from the screen and in many cases going on to destroy their personal lives.
Irreverence
In this context, it can be said without hesitation that the internet presents by far the greatest challenge to the authority of our Torah leaders today. Our nation has been guided throughout its history by our leaders, those individuals who form the unbroken chain of Torah legacy beginning with Moshe Rabbeinu at Har Sinai. The Torah commands us to act upon the guidance of our leaders, who take their advice from the words of the Torah.
Even if it were not an article of faith, history shows that our rabbonim have not let us down. The Torah leaders have guided us on how to respond to every attack, problem and crisis that we have faced during our long and often difficult existence. Only in the merit of our Torah and the bearers of its flag have we survived the incredible physical and spiritual dangers of the past 3,000 years.
The internet is an open and limitless domain. Every user potentially puts himself directly in touch with the most depraved minds on the face of our planet. These are people we would be scared to converse with face-to-face, yet in the sterile world of virtual reality they may become teachers, mentors and closest confidents.
Superficiality
If medical experts and professors are alarmed at what is happening to our generation, how much more so must we be concerned about protecting the most precious and vital aspect of our very being?
Addiction
Internet users relinquish control of their minds and actions.
Like smokers, who are the first to dash out of shul motzaei Shabbos to grab that cigarette they have been craving all afternoon, frum internet users will grab their cell or dash to their computer at the first opportunity to satisfy that urge that has been nagging them all day.
Worse yet, internet addiction has driven people to the most destructive behaviors toward themselves and others around them. Much has been written in scientific literature about internet addicts who have been driven to the point of murder! A study showed that as many as 10 million Chinese youths are so addicted to the internet that they are in need of medical assistance. The New York Times reported on a research study conducted in Maryland that found that 200 people who were blocked from their regular access to the web displayed extreme signs of irritability and other abnormal behavior. Regular use of the internet is being blamed in part for the increased incidence of ADHD among children. Companies have reported that after restricting their workers from spurious access to the internet they saw jumps in productivity of 50%!
I once was waiting in a governent office with an older immigrant from Russia and a Litvak. The Russian addressed him in Yiddish and he had a very difficult time trying to answer.
So if you once met a Litvak who didn’t speak Yiddish well, that proves that none do?
The description of “futuristic technology” is hilarious. a lot of that stuff is actually available now or will be available commercially with in the next 2-3 years.
In the original brochure, they actually had mareh m’komos for the technology!
I noticed a couple more songs cut short. I redid them and will send them out shortly. I have to make a quick shopping trip before Shabbos, so I’ll double check in the car.
Have a great Shabbos!
GAW,
As long as you insist that the rabbonim consider working “mini assur” (whatever that means), I have nothing to retract.
You are being m’vazeh talmidei chachomim, and completely misrepresenting their opinions and motives.
Unless your use of the term “mini assur” is a retraction from your insinuation that they contemplate the possibility that working is assur, but your too embarrassed to just admit that you overstepped your bounds.
Do you realize how silly it sounds top say that rabbonom hold it’s assur to earn a living through honest work?
Great. One file was no good, so I’m in the middle of sending a corrected version. If any more are faulty, or if you need anything else, let me know.
the “it was all a dream, I’ll change” is lame
Tell that to the guy who shot J.R. 😉
