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Some just cant and telling someone to try harder wont make it so. Different Bocherim have different learning capabilities
It’s not just telling them to try harder, it’s giving them the help to obtain the skills.
The percentage that can’t even with help is much, much less than 30%, and they’re usually not in mainstream yeshivos.
My understanding is that the yeshiva cares about the process as much as or more than the result.
I would word that differently, although this is probably what you meant:
The yeshiva cares about obtaining skills (reading, analysis, etc.) as much as or more than learning that specific sugya.
Artscroll does not teach you how to learn, so there is no path to becoming less reliant on it.
Would you say that the shiurim you paticipate in give you a path to independent learning, or would a chavrusa be required for that?
Dy
Your posted time is 9:25 pm לכל הפחות it was posted at 6:25 pst which is after shkiah
Yes, on Feb. 3
Boo hoo, who cares? Their inheritance and wealth should have been taxed at a rate that forced them to work. The fact that the system allows people to live off old money and never contribute anything proves that there’s a problem. Let them work at a fast food chain if they have to. Force them to see how real humans live.
It’s their money. You just want to steal it.
If zoning allows an apartment building , you don’t need a variance for luxury housing.
Maybe the government can zone the property for apartments conditional on them (or a certain amount of them) being affordable.
His actions are a “Kiddisuh Hashem” if one can say that for someone who isnt halachically jewish
You can’t
Is there profit to be made?
If so, why wouldn’t the developers want to do it?
If not, can the government force them to? I doubt it.
What is the message to young
kids?
Its ok to marry out as long as
your kids are successful?I don’t see how that’s the message, but yes, the whole thing is really odd.
It’s sort of a silly discussion to begin with.
I never would have thought my expressed opinion here was so controversial.
I bet your great grandfather,grandfather, father were / balleibatim at some point
Yes, and some undoubtedly would have learned a lot more has they had easier access to the gemara, such as Artscroll provides nowadays.
THEE BALLEIBATIM WHO YOU ARE ACCUSING OF NEEDING ARTSCROLL
Where does the word “accuse” belong in this discussion?
THEE BALLEIBATIM WHO YOU ARE ACCUSING OF NEEDING ARTSCROLL TO LEARN A PIECE OF GEMARA,FOR THE MOST PART ALL LEARNED IN LARGE YEHIVOS,GOT MARRIED AND BECAME BALLEI BATIM.
Some did learn in yeshiva, and some didn’t. Some of those who learned in yeshiva still benefitted from Artscroll. Some didn’t.
Undoubtedly, unfortunately some who would have been better off not using it did, but overall, it’s hard to complain about a publication which helped bring about a massive growth in the number of people learning gemara regularly and the number of hours of increased learning it brought about.
Thats a given but yo say it was for baleo batim who for the most part went to run of the mill yeshivos, it very wrong.
Not for all, but for many. I would agree that a balabus who spent his non working hours learning out of a regular gemara would lose by switching to an Artscroll, but there were and are a it of balabatim who learn many more hours because of the Artscroll gemara.
MY POINT EXACTLY.
BALEIBATTIM WAS THE NORM FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS ,YET THEY SOMEHOW JNEW HOW TO LEARN.Many didn’t.
they felt more people benefited from it than was harmed as the language did pose a significant barrier to many bochrim
Even if that’s true, it’s because the norm in mainstream yeshivos is not to learn with Artscroll; in fact they don’t allow it. So those who do end up using it might be the minority who wouldn’t learn at all if they didn’t have it.
Remind me on Thursday to post “no, it’s after Rosh Chodesh”.
Welcome back, Aries.
The OP was declared a troll many times. He even started a thread complaining about this one, so you actually agree with him.
Just because something was done a certain way in the Alter Heim, doesnt mean it should be repeated
I said nothing about the alter heim. In 21st century United States of America, most mainstream bochurim are better off not using Artscroll.
I mean the Choeftz Chaim learned by Candlelight even after Electric lights were invented.
Is that a criticism?
Does it have anything to do with this discussion?
There is a reason ArtScroll is there
I didn’t say it shouldn’t be. I just said that some people will not benefit, and in fact will lose out, by using it.
and in many cases by encouraging people not to use it, they are actually hurting the learning
But in many cases you’d be hurting them if you advised them to use it.
u may just discover that before “kollel” was invented ,just about every man was a balaboss
1) Artscroll was invented after Kollel.
2) Many balabatim didn’t learn much gemara before Artscroll, but started learning much more after. The inventors of Artscroll have the z’chus of countless hours of learning.
The Artscroll gemara wasn’t made for mainstream yeshiva bochurim. It would be a crutch, and hamper their ability to develop both begginers’ and advanced gemara skills. Many if not most yeshivos don’t have then.
The purpose of Artscroll, and its tremendous accomplishment, is that it enables balabatim who otherwise wouldn’t be able to learn on their own to do so, or at least to cover more ground.
The amount of learning that takes place due to the availability of the Artscroll gemara is staggering. It’s a tremendous z’chus for those who invested their time, money, and efforts to publish it. But for the typical yeshiva bochur who can manage without it, using it would hinder his growth.
(whether or not he is a troll is another matter altogether…. 👹) -29
Depends how you define troll… 😊
Although I should point out that he managed to incorporate most types listed in the OP…
Also “yankelecohen” never chimed in after his first post, unless I missed a comment of his.
Arson troll. See the OP. 👆
17 is highly unusual, even in Eretz Yisroel and even among chassidim. Maybe 20 for chassidim. Are they defying Chazal?
No litvish Rosh Yeshiva is telling his talmidim to go out at 17 maybe a few are going along with 21, but many aren’t. So you have a choice; either nobody is going against Chazal, or they’re all going against Chazal.
According to Rabbeinu Yonah none are going against Chazal, but there maybe a difference of opinion as to when boys are typically ready to get married.
According to Rabbeinu Joseph and Rabbeinu Libbi they’re all going against Chazal.
That’s a total copout. You’re trying to get out of doing teshuvah by saying it’s klal Yisroel’s problem, not yours.
Do teshuvah yourself, then worry about the rest of us.
Nice that you finally looked it up.
The point is that as the generations become weaker, the age could change, and it’s not against Chazal to say that.
The Pischei Teshuvah (b’shem Rabbeinu Yonah) indeed didn’t specify that boys should delay past 18. He also didn’t live in our generation.
The yesod laid out though, is that Chazal didn’t give an absolute number regardless of the maturity level of the boy.
So, if in a particular generation, it is deemed by its gedolim that boys are often not mature enough to get married until 22-23, they’re not chas v’shalom going against Chazal.
I think you actually agree with the yesod of Rabbeinu Yonah. I don’t see you pushing for boys to start going out at 17.
It’s erev Rosh Chodesh!
What about multiple threads on opposite topics?
May we all do teshuva ASAP so mashiach can come
Real teshuvah, or fake teshuvah, fooling yourself into thinking you’re some kind of tzaddik?
What if I don’t have a good voice?
That didn’t stop the guy sitting next to me this past Shabbos.
How about the start a topic and then complain that there’s such a topic troll?
No, no, I mean real teshuvah, not making yourself feel like a tzaddik teshuvah.
May we all do teshuva ASAP
We’re waiting for you to lead by example.
Recently the liberal media has called Ben Shapiro an anti-semite because he wouldn’t kill baby Hitler.
That’s tranparently bias. It’s a philosophical question, nothing more.
According to Halacha, there’s a mitzvah of מחיית עמלק.
We don’t know fore sure who עמלק is in a literal sense, and it’s it’s not certain that there’s a partial קיום.
What is bein adam lechavro about not being tznius
1) Every bein adam lamakom has an element of bein adam lachaveiro in it, because klal Yisroel is one, and we are all affected by anyone sinning. Kol Yisroel areivim zeh lazeh.
2) Any aveirah done publicly has an even stronger element of bein adam lachaveiro, because it bothers people who are yarei shomayim, and has a negative influence on people.
3) Tznius in particular can be machshil men as well.
She didn’t bash you.
So you’d be in the perfect position to say if it’s him or his mother!
I wouldn’t expect you to say it’s him since he probably knows who you are as well. 🙂
if it’s so easy why are there very frum girls who are very not tznius.
The same reason there are so many very frum girls who eat treif, are mechallel Shabbos, etc.
By definition if you live outside of Brooklyn, you’re not frum.
Or better yet, just start it for me. After all, I’m just a silly old bear with a complex…
I’ll give it a shot.