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I read and post on this forum because I have a great deal of respect and admiration for Orthodoxy and what it has accomplished in America. I attended Orthodox Yeshiva high school and have spent plenty of time in that world. In addition, my grandfather A”H was an Orthodox rabbi who was one of the most devout Jews I have ever known. While he would never take an ALiyah in a Conservative synagogue, he treated all Jews the same way and would have an intelligent and serious conversation with anyone. He knew Gemara inside and out, but could also talk authoritatively on modern biblical studies and American history (in which he had a doctorate). It was a beautiful form of Orthodoxy and one which is harder and harder to find. He was one of my inspirations for becoming a rabbi and I am saddened that his Judaism is disappearing.
For those of you who felt the need to knock the CJLS teshuvot, I would suggest you actually read them. Out of curiosity, why exactly would you say a woman can’t tie tzitzit knots?
Regarding serving with other rabbis – You will not find this universally accepted in Orthodoxy. In fact, Rav Soloveitchik who you mentioned, famously worked with Rabbi Saul Lieberman on forming a joint Beit Din for issuing Gittin. Sadly, their efforts fell through, but the effort was there.
I’ve decided that I will no longer be posting on this thread. I am happy that I maintained a civil discourse while many of you foamed at the mouth at the mere thought of a COnservative rabbi. As with any forum, there are usually a few people who post, but many more who read. I can only hope that they were happy to see that there are other Jews out there to talk to.
Kol Tuv
Shavua Tov to one and all!
Many of you seem to be confused about the nature of the Committee of Jewish Law and Standards (CJLS). It does not serve the function of a chief rabbi or rov that makes Psak Halacha. The CJLS debates Teshuvot written by its members on issues of Jewish law. After the discussion/debate, the Teshuva is put to a vote and if it garners the required number of votes it becomes an officially recognized position of the Conservative Movement. These positions are not forced on anyone and simply exist to provide Conservative rabbis with multiple ways to look at issues that are likely to arise. Rabbis who step outside the bounds of what the CJLS has deemed appropriate are disciplined and risk losing their membership in the Rabbinical Assembly. A cantor sits on the committee because he is more likely to be an expert in Jewish liturgy and synagogue practice; areas that are certainly important to Halakhic debate. The lay people sit on the committee because they can inform the rabbis of what the Jews in the pews are doing and how they feel. Lay input has always been important in Halakhic decision making because rabbis are not supposed to pass Takanot or interpret Halakha in a way that will be impossible for their followers to carry out. I suggest you take a look at some of the Teshuvot that the CJLS has approved: http://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/law/teshuvot_public.html
You will not find many of the things people on this forum are saying on that site, instead you will find learned discourses on pertinent issues of Halakha that cite legal literature ranging from the Torah to modern day poskim (Orthodox ones!).
The CJLS has never abrogated Shabbat, Kashrut, Taharat Mishpacha, or anything else. As rabbis, we are greatly saddened that greater numbers in our communities are not observant as we would like them to be and we take much responsibility for that situation. For example, the (misquoted above) Teshuva about driving on Shabbos was passed in the early 20th century and we know it is weak on Halakhic grounds. It is a reflection of the time when it was written, a time when it looked like people would live to far away from synagogues to attend and it condoned driving ONLY to the synagogue, but nowhere else. Orthodox rabbis from that time period were also known to turn a blind eye or condone many activities that today you would not approve of, because they were just as desperate to keep people Jewishly involved. I still have very little problem saying that someone who drives only to shul is Shomer Shabbos, but unfortunately people will justify all sorts of things by saying “The Conservative Movements permits driving on Shabbos.”
A “galus disease”? I don’t remember which of you wrote that. I really do hate using the “Sinat Chinam card” but do you really listen to what you are saying? Come on.
Gays and gay marriage? Are homosexual acts permitted by the Torah and rabbinic Judaism? Clearly not. Would I stand up on a soapbox and lecture people? No, not only would I look like a fool, but people wouldn’t listen and I would turn them off to Judaism even more. Would I perform Kiddushin for a homosexual couple? No, I don’t think that’s what Jewish law defines as a marriage. I might be able to be convinced to perform some kind of Jewishly influenced commitment ceremony without the word marriage attached.
I have no interest in any of you becoming Conservative Jews. What I am very interested in respect and friendship between different kinds of Jews. I want to work with the Orthodox shul a block away from mine on joint Kiddushes after services. I want to have joint Bet Midrash learning programs. I’d like our kids to play together in the same Shomer Shabbat sports leagues. I’d like to stand together with all the local rabbis, not just the Reform ones when it comes to Jewish issues like Israel or days off for our holidays in public school. Does that sound so bad to you? From the tenor of your comments, I would guess it does.
If I’ve left anything unanswered, please remind me.
Kol Tuv!
I promise that I will answer more comments after Shabbos, I’m not ignoring anyone.
Philosopher – you are 100% right that disagreement is not Sinat Chinam. Take for example an American Jew who waits six hours between meat and milk. When he disagrees with a Dutch Jew who waits one hour, that is a difference of opinion and practice, not Sinat Chinam. When the American calls the Dutchman a Rasha or tells him that he is practicing a fake religion or anything like that – then it is Sinat Chinam.
A lot more to answer, but not enough time before Shabbos.
Just a few quick comments.
bombmaniac,
I do not believe that all Jews should be any flavor of Conservative or any one style of Judaism and I wouldn’t ask them to be. I acknowledge the Orthodox Judaism is A correct way to practice Judaism, not THE correct way (What do you mean by Orthodox Judaism anyway? You talk like there is only one type of person who falls under the umbrella of Orthodoxy). No, I do not ask my converts to follow law as understood by Orthodox Judaism. Why would I? I’m glad you have more store in your Rov than in me, that’s why he’s your Rov.
CHerrybim,
Rabbi Joel Roth is most certainly active in the Conservative Movement and is still doing a wonderful job teaching future rabbis and others.
Darchei Noam,
Clearly you disprove the idea of Keshmo Ken Hu. Comments like yours and the leaders you mention are a major reason why there is so much Sinat Chinam among the Jewish people. Look at this forum – You’re making comments like that, I’m not. Which one of us is keeping Mashiach away? Think that over.
A Good Shabbos to all!
That’s quite a lot of questions and comments directed at me. I’ll endeavor to answer some of them because I think talking and listening to different types of Jews is very important and I have a feeling that many of you have never met a Conservative rabbi.
Gavra at Work:
I am most definitely a Conservative rabbi. We believe that all the Mitzvoth of the Torah are binding. That said, try to find two sources that identify all 613 Mitzvoth and interpret them in the same way. I have a feeling you will not find it possible to do so. This is the position of the Conservative Movement. Do I believe in Revelation at Sinai? Yes, I do. God entered into a relationship with the Jewish people thousands of years ago. A relationship between man and God is just like a relationship between two people: it involves conversation and dialog, and it grows and changes because the participants do not remain the same. The nature of our relationship with God has changed because we have changed and we believe God has always been aware of this since He entered into that relationship. Jews have long had a metaphor that envisions God as a father or a parent. Just like a parents and children do not relate to each other in the same way from infancy through adulthood, God and the Jewish people continue to adapt to each other because we are committed to each other. I personally believe that this idea of relationship has existed in Jewish tradition for a long time. Don’t we say that it took seven weeks to get from Egypt to Sinai because the ragtag group of impure slaves needed the time to become a real nation worthy of receiving the Torah? There was a time before God would enter into a relationship with us and we needed to grow before we were ready. We didn’t stop growing at Sinai, but rather were just at the beginning. So GAW, the answers to your questions are a definite YES, but a nuanced YES as well.
So Right,
Your question about abortion is tricky because I’m not sure what you are asking or with what opinion on the subject you are asking it with. “Abortion on Demand” is not a Jewish idea, it’s an American one. Our Halachik sources make it very clear that abortion is not murder and forbidden to begin with. The Mishnah in Ohalot permits it in a case where the mother is in danger and Rambam justifies this by saying that the fetus is a Rodef. Given this position, I see no reason to say that abortion is Assur. If you’re asking if abortion should be used as birth control, I would say no. To do so is an act of extreme irresponsibility. I find it necessary to defend abortion in American law because the people who want to make it illegal want to do so in all cases. This would lead to the death of women; Jewish as well as non-Jewish ones. This isn’t an acceptable outcome.
Is it ok to be gay? You mention orientation as opposed to act. I don’t know what it means to have a gay orientation because I don’t have one. I don’t know what people like that go through, but I do know that we are obligated to treat them with the same level of respect with which we treat other people. Many people say people say this, but few live it. Would I perform a gay marriage? I’ve never been asked and probably not. Would I fight for their rights under American law? I haven’t been involved with this, but if push came to shove I probably would because they deserve the same tax benefits, medical benefits, legal status, etc as a man and woman who have committed to each other in a permanent way.
Can woman be rabbis? Yes. Even in the most recent events surrounding this topic in Orthodoxy, no rabbi came up with a valid Halachic reason why not. Is it the way Orthodoxy does things? No Although I disagree, I feel no need to ask you to conform to me. Then again, I’m not an Orthodox woman who deeply desires to be a Jewish religious leader.
AinOhdMilvado,
Given what I know of the Committee of Jewish Law and Standards, I do not see any way that it will change the definition of Jewishness to include paternal descent. Regarding how it does operate, it is no different from how Jewish religious leaders have made Halachic decisions in the past. The individual members make arguments based on their reading of traditional sources. Conservative Jews are under no obligation to accept everything the Committee says and you certainly do not have one. That is the same way Jewish law has always worked. An Ashkenazic Jew in the 1200’s had no obligation to accept the rulings of the Rashba in Barcelona. The idea of a universal Posek is unheard of in Jewish legal history. Our Teshuvot simply provide people with more than one way to read Jewish texts.
Ben Torah,
I clearly do not accept Rav Moshe’s psak on this issue and I find many of his writings about COnservative Jews to have been written in a mean-spirited way and without real knowledge of what goes on in our movement. This does not take away from his genius or his knowledge of Torah. It just means that, as I said above, I am not obligated to accept his rulings.
I believe that answers most of the questions directed at me, I’m choosing to ignore the nasty gratuitous comments. I read this forum regularly because it gives me insight into a Jewish community of which I am not a part. I hope you will take the time to read what I have written.
Bombmaniac
My credentials are that I’m a Conservative rabbi, so yes, I know a little bit more than you about what goes into a COnservative conversion. I take exception to being lumped with Reform rabbis, not because I disrespect them, but because we have real differences when it comes to Jewish theology and law. I accept the Jewish law is binding, they do not.
As for another comment someone mad about who we accept as Jews – No COnservative rabbi will tell you that the child of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother is Jewish. I have personally been involved with conversions of such children. It may be painful for the family, but we insist on it because it is Halacha.
A response to all the rude comments – You should be careful before you toss another group of Jews into the “junkyard”, someday someone will do that to you and I can’t wait to see how you like it.
This question shows a complete ignorance of what goes on in the non-orthodox communities. First of all, Reform and Conservative are not at all the same thing and to lump them together shows a lack of nuance and a lack of sophistication. Conservative conversions are done according to Halacha or they are not accepted. This is in quite different from the Reform Movement where each rabbi decides what his/her standards are.