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Avi K, many shuls do say those mi-sheberachs. Saying it for the queen is absurd because she has no political power and is just a figure head. The point of the bracha is to ask Hashem to make the people in power be fit to be nice to the Jews. The Hatikva is just as pointless as the American NA. The early zionists were anti-Torah and anti-Hashem.
Kozov- I agree with that, but with all due respect, I think you lost cheshbon. I was addressing Sam2’s statement. Please reread what I said. I was making the point that since its a “heter” it has limitations. We never learn the heter to apply to someone that’s eino metzuveh.
Shlishi there’s a stark difference between tichels and burqas. I’m not sure which sfardi poskim you are referring to. I’ve never seen a valid burqa heter unless it was mamash the society you lived in and was pikuach nefesh.. if you’re discussing the kehillas in eretz Yisroel that have their chuppas with a curtain between the chasan and kallah… I don’t think any gedolim hold of them. Just because some rabbi gets up and paskens something for his community doesn’t mean he is right in doing so. We need to follow our gedolim, and I haven’t seen any gedolim’s rebbetzins walking around with face veils.
Quite frankly, it’s a private publishing company and they can do what they want. They don’t owe any of us diddly squat!
BSD, IMHO:
I’m using “lishmah” to be le’afukei feministic reasons, which are the likely motivating factors if she’s not learning due to “an unquenchable thirst for Torah knowledge” as you proposed before. If shelo lishmah implies femenism – which I strongly believe it would – then yes, it would be assur for a girl to learn shelo lishmah, and “ein mitzvah baah biydei aveira” knocks out “mishelo lishma ba lishma” for girls in this case because it’s a davar sh’eino metsuvah. There is no precedence, that I’m aware of, of using “mishelo lishma ba lishma”, (which is not a pashut heter legabei learning Torah even for men) for a davar sh’eino metzuveh.
147, sure except that’s all a complete corruption of Daas Torah…
No, I’m curious.
One time when I was in high school, I was at shul after Yom Tov davening and I accidentally punted a football into the back of an old lady’s head. She was holding a baby and almost collapsed, and was wailing, “take the baby! Take the baby!” It was totally her fault for being in the crossfire of a football game, what was she thinking?!…. No but seriously, it really wasn’t my fault because I kicked the ball straight into a big mass of kids that were playing, but they all stepped aside and split like the Yam Suf, and lo and behold she was sitting down right behind them on a picnic table and took the full kick right to the skull! Luckily all the adults thought it was some little kid who did it, and she even told him later, “wow kid, you have some kick!” He was happy to be recognized as a strong ball kicker, and I was happy to have not been found out, but some of my friends were standing nearby and they saw me do it. They won’t let me live it down. Call us cruel, but seeing some yenta get unexpectedly nailed by a 50 mile an hour football to the back of the head is the funniest thing in the world at the time, embarrassing or not!
The Wolf, I’m not sure if you cast aspersion on yourself as a joke or not, but I would say your first (former) limud is correct.
Shlishi, the burqas, which are worn by Muslim for religious reasons, are a serious shaila of malbush goyim. It’s used with direct connection to avodah zara.
Sam2.. your terutz to my kasha would imply that girls who begin learning leshmah shouldn’t make a habit of it because they will come to learn shlo leshmah, which is assur for a girl lekulei alma.
Yytz, you are not allowed to neuter an animal or even ask a goy to do it, but I’m pretty sure you are permitted to purchase a neutered animal. Also, if Rav Moshe Feinstein held it was assur to raise veal in such a manner and even to eat it when you weren’t the one who raised it, then why did he teach the less machmir case? That’s called a “diyo”. Let him say the more chamur case of eating, and I would have learned the obvious case of raising it. Must be that it’s muttar to eat. That’s a very basic step in limud haTorah.
Also, there is a chiluk between stolen and abused. Think about it this way, the agriculture market has a certain amount of heads of cattle and each head is sold to the highest bidder, not one by one, but in batch auctions nonetheless. It’s not like cows are released into the wild if they aren’t sold, they are slaughtered when they get to a certain weight and age and are either consumed here or slaughtered and exported. Us refraining from eating a cow is just condemning them to a mundane death and depriving their ruach of the zchus of being eaten in a kosher way. Unless you have a dramatic impact on demand you won’t cause ranchers to curb their supplies. They aim to breed as many heads as possible. More heads=more $$. All you are doing is letting them die for naught, when you could have gotten one more cow to Gan Eden, so to speak. A stolen animal on the other hand is a different issue altogether, you are buying a cow that doesn’t belong to the person you are buying it from. That’s not really related
The Wolf – I posted about burqas before I saw your post appear… Jinx!!!
I agree with interjection. An obvious example that comes to mind are the burqa charaidim in Israel. That’s not daas Torah. Gedolim do not tell us to live like that.
GAW. You responded correctly, and you said much with few words. Chazak ubaruch.
Kollel wife, “I don’t think the person is messed up or has problems,” “Even if I try to feel sorry for them, it’s with so much anger and hatred, not really feeling sorry.”
That’s what I’m saying. You won’t be able to feel sorry for them until you realize that what’s causing them to be “a bit cruel and insensitive,” is choli hanefesh. Sickness of the soul. Just like we have various levels of physical ailments so too are there various levels of spiritual ailments. Just because someone isn’t a sociopathic homicidal maniac doesn’t mean that their soul is in perfect health. As a matter of fact, all of us need refuas hanefesh, everyone is flawed, some are just more flawed than others, and we should daven that they get their refuah.
Yytz – I’m fairly certain factory farming didn’t exist in Israel until recently, if even at all, so I don’t know what issue of tzaar baalei chayim there is. I am no posek, but I would say farkert, if you are concerned about baalei chayim so much you SHOULD eat meat. The ultimate zchus for an animal is for it to have a kosher shechitah and have a bracha said over it, or have it be fed to aniyim, or cooked lekavod Shabbos. The reality of the matter is that these cows aren’t owned by Jews until they are shechted, and that means that if the Jewish shchitah plants don’t pay to shecht them they will just go to the treif market. The Jews in America barely make a dent on the gargantuan, multi-billion dollar ranching industry. So you see, you eating or not eating one beef doesn’t save the lives of any animals. If you start recruiting others to join your cause that’s a different story, but then you put yourself in the looney vegan category.
Cherrybim- I don’t understand what heter there is to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Look at what the words are saying. You are making a neder to give your ultimate loyalty to a morally misguided country. How is that muttar? Mekublani merabosai that it shouldn’t be recited.
Feif un, I hear a chiluk between a high school graduation which includes secular studies teachers who aren’t necessarily Jewish & celebrates a graduation from a secular education that is available “thanks to” a secular country, and a siyum haShas which is done lekavod haTorah, and is not made to celebrate anything secular, nor are any of the people affiliated with the simcha not Jewish. The security forces, which did a terrific job, are there to do their jobs that they get paid to do, and were thanked clearly & explicitly, not abstractly through a recitation of their national anthem.
Sam2 – learning leshmah is a big nisayon even for bochurim in Yeshiva, and I’ve heard it being brought up to roshei yeshivah in hashkafa sessions many, many times by talmidim who have been in beis medrash for not a small number of years. Therefore, I highly doubt NCSY girls who are going through kiruv are interested in learning gemara because of “an unquechable thirst for knowledge and Emes.” It’s probably just curiosity in their own heritage. Or perhaps I’m wrong and this is just another example of the lack of the manifestation of the yetzer hara in people who have no obligation to do a mitzvah. Regardless though, I was discussing frum or Modox girls, not people going to kiruv who mamash have no clue in what’s nahoug and not nahoug in regards to learning. This is coming from someone who has been mekurav partially thanks to NCSY.
Sam2, I didn’t express my opinion clearly. I know that you don’t need a heter for everything, but sometimes chazal do this with regards to things that one may have a strong hava aminah that they should be assur. To me, this is one of those cases. That’s what I meant, and o should have elaborated. I apologize. Also, I don’t think singing the national anthem by yourself is chukas hagoim, but doing it at a venue that hosts a large public gathering, particularly at a sports arena, and having everyone stand up and sing together seems borderline to me. That’s what the goyim do at their sports game kinnusim, which chazal decry in numerous places, as you know. I just don’t see how subscribing to nationalism, especially in a country that isn’t run al pi daas Torah, would be allowed. Hakaras hatov is one thing, but nationalism or even patriotism for that matter is not for klall Yisroel IMHO.
Rabbi of Berlin – I didn’t see the siyum, so I’m not sure what song you are referring to. If you mean “ani maamin be’emunah shleyma…” That’s not stam a song, that’s one of the 13 principles of faith brought down by the Rambam. There’s a huge difference.
Cherrybim – ” The gedolim of the past did it…” whom and where? The rest of what you said is hafla vefeleh! Which Yeshiva did you go to?! I mean, it’s good to know the pledge and the anthem as common knowledge, but to recite it daily??? Also, toasting to the queen at simchas?? That’s just shocking, but I guess there’s nothing wrong with that. We say misheberachs for the foreign governments that they should be kind to their Jews. In England the culture borderline idolizes the queen so I can see how the secular minhag of toasting to her could have seeped in to Jewish events.
Don’t take this the wrong way but…Chazal say that the money you were supposed to give to tzdaka every year but didn’t, often just gets taken away another way. We’re approaching Rosh Hashana & Yom Kippur, so maybe it was a kaparah.
Ps as in psychic, olo as in colonel, quoise as in….. Turquoise?
Panni55 – vegans are not the same as vegetarians. Vegans are like the Neturei Karta of vegetarians… They’re totally looney.
Yytz- ” there’s nothing wrong with being vegetarian to avoid contributing to the severe violations of tzaar baalei chaim which are very common in this age of factory farming.” I have one question, are there any gedolim who hold like this? If not, then it’s likely not a valid hashkafa, and you can assume your sensitivity for tzaar baalei chaim is not genuinely greater than theirs is.
” This is why I feel that certain women should be allowed to learn gemera because chances are the ones who are interested in learning it are more intellect based “
Far east – first of all, the Torah obligated men to learn Torah, not women. We can’t say halacha should be that emotional men shouldn’t learn based on our perception of the reasoning behind the Torah’s laws, which are absolutes. Hashem said all men must learn, so all men must learn.
With regards to women learning, there is no real reason for them to learn Torah except to know the halacha that applies to them. With regards to your statement quoted above, I would say that first of all you shouldn’t decide what the halacha is based on how you feel (which chazal say is a tendency of women, and one of the reasons why they shouldnt learn) – ask a rav.
Second, I disagree with your presumption. Chances are, most women who are interested in Torah are not “intellect based”. It’s far more likely that they either have feminist motivations – trying to be “equal to men” (which is flawed thinking, as I explained earlier), or they are just curious to learn what they perceive as forbidden knowledge. Ironic because I’m not a woman, but chazal tell us women are much more curious than men, and telling them not to learn Torah is like leaving them in an empty room with a big red button in the middle of it and telling them to “not push the red button”.
Furthermore, even if you go with the poskim who say it’s muttar for a woman to learn gemara, and even if you are discussing a woman that is doing it for the “right reasons” (ie: doing a mitzva), then she should first realize that it’s more imperative for a person to do a mitzva that s/he IS commanded than one that s/he is NOT commanded. Neglecting a mitzvah that is a chiyuv to do a mitzva that is reshus is an aveira. Women have many mitzvas that they are obligated to do within their role as captains of the home. Even simple chores like doing the dishes, feeding the kids, doing laundry, which are not “mandatory mitzvas”, add to shalom bayis and are therefore mitzvas. Shalom bayis is a bigger mitzvah than the mitzvah for a woman to learn gemara, even according to the poskim who mattir it, because one is metzuveh and one is eino metzuveh. Therefore, it follows that if a woman uses her time to learn gemara when she could be doing things that increase shalom bayis, raising her children, or tending to her husband, she may be doing an aveira.
Sam2, no he didn’t. However, the baal Hamaor is accredited with being the author of the baal Hamaor. Hahaha!
Where is it written that you are allowed to? If it was the right thing to do, the gedolim there would have done it. Besides, it’s the derech of goyim, not a Torah concept, to sing nationalistic anthems. It’s enough to just say thank you.
I know a shomer shabbos person who doesn’t eat meat because it’s “achzarius”. He also feels the whole korbanos process with slaughtering animals and sprinkling their blood was barbaric and primitive. That’s straight up apikorsus, but he won’t listen. He’s a brilliant guy with a PhD in psychology and he’s a lawyer, he also holds an executive position. I don’t understand how such smart people can be so stupid.
I’m not exactly sure if you have to, but assuming you do, which is probably the case… People who are abusive should not be looked at with animosity, but rather with pity. They are so sick in the head and have such bad self esteem that the only way they can feel good about themselves is by tearing others down. Once we are aware of this reality we can start seeing these people as nebachs, and we become immune to their verbal abuse. It’s likely this person has severe emotional and relationship problems caused by a messed up upbringing or a traumatic early life event. We should feel sorry for them that they aren’t getting the proper psychological attention that they require for their sickness. Constantly remind yourself to view them like this and forgiveness will come naturally.
I won’t deny it!!
So… Since it’s only us fellas in here, why don’t we all pitch in and install a bar, a dartboard, pool table, flatscreen with some ESPN, and a mansized grill!!! I’ll start working on the “No girls allowed” sign, for the front door. Zeeskite, go get some 24 packs and a lot of ice…. We’ll uhh… We’ll pay you back later 🙂
Nope, not me…
Far east and shlishi – it says a woman doesn’t have daas. Daas is not exactly intellect. We know there are some women who are more intellectual than many men and vice versa, so we know that’s not true. Daas, rather, means a strictly logical approach. Women, in general, are more emotionally oriented creatures than men. Thus, Chazal say that since halacha and the Talmud should be dissected with a purely logical approach, it is unbefitting of an emotionally thinking person to delve into such matters.
This also fits what we scientifically know about male and female biological systems. Women are more prone to hormonal mood swings than men are. Women are also more inclined to naturally feel compassion and are better at detecting the emotional dispositions of other people than men. This can also influence their judgement on minute hairsplitting diyunim in learning. They’re built for a different purpose, and should therefore use their strengths to accomplish the intention that they were created for, not the intention that we were created for.
Just like a lion can’t chew hay, so too can a buffalo not hunt gazelle. It doesn’t make the buffalo worse, it’s just different. If a buffalo tries to act like a lion it won’t succeed, and even if it appears to be a lion because it joins the lion pride in gnawing on the bones of the downed gazelle, it will never become a successful hunter.
Bribery is such a strong word… What if one person really did enjoy it, and actually wants a second date? Even if the other person didn’t think to go out on another date, what’s bribery about asking someone to give you a second chance? Maybe that person was very nervous and just needed to loosen up a bit, which is easier on the second date.
Maybe he just finished playing bball and didn’t want to miss minyan…?
Kfb, I know at least 3 such people. There was a time where it almost felt like I was the common factor of all of them, and I joked that I was making people go otd. These were really shtark guys who were some of the best learners I knew. It can happen to anyone, and there’s not too much we can do about it except consult with an “adam gadol”, as Health put it, and maybe just talk to the person and try to hang out with them to influence them to come back, or at least retain some shaychus to frumkite. For some people its a “phase”, for others its terminal. The most important thing is to realize that you are doing your hishtadlus and whatever happens, happens; its not in our control, and, while we mourn, we shouldn’t get depressed about it.
YehudahTzvi – hamatzil nefesh achas beyisroel ke’ilo matzil olam kulo…. Yasher koach!
” Joseph Pilates was a guy.”
Yeah… So was Richard Simmons.. until he started doing women’s workout shows on tv.
All these feminist posts by Golden Trolling are getting really old. They aren’t funny or amusing, and they’re causing machlokes and might be making people nichshal in questioning Klall Yisrael’s traditions when nobody in the CR finds a good enough source to justify our own minhagim that have held for thousands of years. Not to mention The Wolf is getting sucked into this pro feminist trap like a planet into a blackhole. For goodness’ sake I am requesting we drop the feminist instigation, and endless trolling please.
Oh okay. I live oot, so I’m understandably out of the loop on those matters.
Never read HP, buy mine is Ryu Hayabusa 🙂
Do u have viruses?
Zeeskite… You know anyone can just Google it… Right?
Gefilte ghotio
I hate the animal rights loonies.
Why would you want to delete it?