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Israel is very different from the US and all other countries that have volunteer armies. The US population is 331 million and Israel is 9 million of which only 3/4 are Jewish. The natural threat to Israel of its neighbors is not an issue to be minimized. The only reason why Ben Gurion initially agreed to the deferment for yeshiva students is bec. it was a minute number (400). Think one corner of the Mir. Since then it has increased 15,000%.
To make the issue of the army as “they just want to shmadzach our shevet Levi” is not accurate. It is not realistic to expect the burden of conscription to be placed on a population that will eventually become the minority. I think the issue needs to be addressed from all sides without the basis of “that is the way it has always been done”.
True, I did not sign up for the US armed forces but that is bec. they can manage without me as we see. If that reality changed and it became necessary to conscript I would not fight it. I would not want to go but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. I don’t like to pay taxes or jury duty and try to get out of both in any legal way. But I also realize that there are some things that are unavoidable. I don’t look at the the IRS as a bunch of Nazis trying to take away my religious freedom.I did not mean to be harsh and flipant regarding the difficulties in moving. Yes, moving for anybody is a stressful undertaking. But the OP and several articles I have read make it sound like a tragedy that Brooklyn is losing its youth to Lakewood. This OP was actually more hopeful by saying that the sefradim are staying. It would be great if the sefardim take over all the shul, yeshivot and mikvaot that the ashkenazim built! No issues of selling to churches and the like and it is keeping everything in the family. Wouldn’t be anything wrong if they gave them away to sfardim bec. all the ashkenzazim left!
1- No we care more about a lot of things besides grass. But that does not mean that there is a be advantage of seeing more asphalt and cement. If Jews would say “we really don’t care much about gashmiyus and expensive houses. We will focus on ruchninyus and live in a neighborhood that is ugly and unpleasant and not spend our hard earned money on extravagant neighborhoods.” However, that is not the case. Instead, the Jews 30-40 years ago chose the worst of both worlds- unpleasant neighborhoods that you need to pay a fortune for the privilege of living there. One day the kids wake up and say “hey the emperor has no clothes!” Why in the world should we kill ourselves to make ends meet and pay fortunes of money to live in cramped overcrowded conditions? “. And then the old folks scratch their heads and say “gee I don’t know why the young folk don’t want to live here anymore.” (Duh)
Kol hakavod to the younger generation for waking up and breaking out of the mindset of we need to live in Brooklyn. Unfortunately that has been replaced with the mindset of we need to live in Lakewood. Until of course their kids grow up, move out to ___ and the cycle starts all over again.
I am not understanding some of the posters here- there is no shame in making Brooklyn Judenrein (if it really did come to that). Did you ever think that Jews did not belong there in the first place? Helloooo-its galus, not the promised land. Do you really think G-d needs more Jews in Flatbush vs. Wichita vs, Cracow vs. Alexandria? For some reason a bunch of Jews chose that as their home (proximity to Manhattan?) and it became the place to be. Yes we invested a ton of money in infrastructure. But we also invested a ton of money in shuls and mikvaos in Poland. Is anyone suggesting we go back there to take advantage of it? I can think of a much greater connection Vilna or Lublin but I don’t see Orthodox Jews moving there in droves. Do you ever think how much R. Meir Shapiro invested in Yeshivas Chachmei Lublin and how many years we got out of it?
Economics is a reality and so is progress. From a pure dollars and sense standpoint is it better for 1,000 Jews to spend $1,000,000 on a small uncomfortable home in an ugly neighborhood with crazy traffic with infrastructure in place (which also needs money in upkeep) or move to a newer cheaper neighborhood and rebuild the infrastructure all over again?
Regarding the Bubbies and Zaidies who are still left there, let them get over the nostalgia, sell your your home for a fine profit and move near your kids (assuming they want you there) . Sell it to whoever is crazy enough to NEED that area and find greener pastures. Hopefully you will find them in E”Y but at the very least you can use the money to retire comfortably.
Regarding the rest of the Jews who are still there and may kvetch about smaller class sizes and higher tuition-try moving out and break the vicious cycle. Which is a bigger challenge, dealing with a few less kids in the class or needing to pay all of your staff higher salaries to keep up with the insane cost of living? How many Rabbeim can live a comfortable normal life in Brooklyn with one one job? Two jobs? If none then we have built an unsustainable system and it is time to dismantle it.Last one out turn off the lights.
1. A significant factor of increased exemptions is likely due to the population growth of the chareidim vs. chilonim.
2. Perhaps the declining interest in the secular youth enlisting is also due in large part to the chareidim. They may think “If they don’t serve, why should I?”3. Do you really want an 18 year with mental health issues to be walking around the streets of Israel 24/7 with a loaded assault rifle?
4. Why does it not bother you that there is an increase in mental health issues amongst your brethren?
5. It looks like the 33% includes the chareidim.
6. Dou you really think that they would just let people off bec. they claim to have mental health issues without a letter from a mental health professional?
7. Isn’t this more of a reason for chereidim to look for viable ways to work with the IDF to join the ranks of nachal chereidi if the secular will not join? If the chareidim will eventually become the majority in Israel they can’t realistically expect a minority of secular to be the only ones serving.
Stop making this an us vs. them issue without looking for for ways to address the problem.
Kollelman-why do think we need long term solutions other than what you mentioned? There is no mitzvah of Yishuv haaretz in Brooklyn. Why not just sell properties for a huge profit, pick and move somewhere else (preferably E”Y) and call it a day (or a century). Is there any reason to try and save the Ashkenazi Brooklyn community. Nostalgia is nice but should not prevent life from moving forward.
Perhaps a more productive way to address this issue would be to speak with the boy’s principal and share with him your ideas of what lessons should be shared with the students. It is very possible that the school spoke at length about it but it did not affect your son.
It is not not strange for a 12 year old to not care about any communal issue especially if it will not have any effect on the video game he plans to play that afternoon.
Do you remember being a community activist at age 12?
Gemera is not trief to women. If it was all Bias Yaakov and seminaries would not be able to quote to the girls any gemaras which is obviously impossible.
The gemara that talks about tiflus is saying that we do not create a system in which we emphasize, encourage,cajole etc. the learning of Torah shebeal peh to girls like we do to boys. If they want to learn it on their own that is their business.So to break it down- the maggid shiur is doing nothing wrong. He is just giving his regular shiur and the women join.
The women are doing nothing wrong, they have a thirst for Torah. Don’t knock it.
The other male attendees are doing nothing wrong as long as the gidrei tznius are in place (requiring a mechitza is ridiculous but if everyone is OK with that that is their business)
So too add it all up-yes it is a good thing bec. more Torah is being learned by klal yisrael.
If it was a high school requiring girls take a certain amount of gemara classes to graduate that would be a different story.
So paskens the Rebbe of CT
You need to clarify your question. Are you questioning the maggid shiur, the women attendees, the men attendees or all of the above. Please be aware that all responses an comments to this thread will be read by members of the MO community, the Non_Orthodox community as well as the Chareidi community and the world at large.
Boruch- what do you mean “It cant be all about money.” ? Do you really think anyone opens a girls camp with the intention of giving young women a summer experience that they can not receive anywhere else? Of course the focus is on making money. Its a business. Saying otherwise would be like trying to pretend girls seminaries in Israel open with the primary objective of giving an educational experience.
These are two areas where it seems clear “it’s all about the benjamins baby”.
I don’t think Joseph, Charlie Hall and chabadshalucha could be the same person. No one could have that much time on their hands to make all those comments. Unless of course he/she is paid employees of YWN who writes all day in the coffee room to give it more life and get people upset.
Hmmmm
Joseph- How many other expenses do know of that have gone up in price 600% in the last 30 years? Perhaps Haimy has a point that there is more going on here than just covering the expenses.
According to Dr. Heilman the seats on the floor for the 9th siyum went for $100. A bargain compared to $600
Y’all might want to keep in mind that the average NFL player earn $2.7 million a year with 53 players. Don’t look at the value of a football game vs. a siyum. Look at their expenses.
Also consider we do not know if indeed a full 30% are not yet sold just bec. those categories are not yet sold out.
Maybe some people are turned off by all the Yiddish speeches?
(It a joke. Ok everybody, just a joke)
I think the biggest reason for both boys and girls is for them to experience the types of families who live on a whole different existence than those in the US. The yiras shomayim and idealism is something that you can only absorb by living with such people for an extended period of time, going to their house for shabbos etc. It is immersion in that environment which can have life-changing effects (although it is not automatic). There are no metrics for what I am talking about. Either you get it or you don’t.
The second-biggest reason to experience E”Y not as a tourist but as someone living there. It’s the kind of thing you can do by staying in a hotel for 10 days and going on a tour bus.
Obviously one needs to understand where your kid is holding to determine if the risks are worth the possible reward. Giving some kids independence without supervision can be negative.
I think what is bothering Haimy in regards to the fundraising aspect is that it seems to project to bring in much more money than the cost of the event. I think that is a valid point but my hope is that the extra cash raised is used for promoting limud daf hayomi for the entire 7.5-year cycle. It seems that they are also trying to use this an opportunity to promote limd hatorah in general which is, of course, a worthwhile cause.
I have a bigger issue with organizations that charge full price or more for their products (tisha b’av films, books etc.) and then raise tons of money is donations to sponsor each event to the hilt. Granted the question is more on th donors but it does make one think.Let us try to dan lekaf zechus and say that those who daven at a late hour are busy with hachana for two hours. Do any of the chasidic sources say that hachana needs to start at a late hour? Would they not agree that if you know you are going to need that much time for hachana then just start your day early?
It also does not answer how this practice deals with missing the zman tefila. Even if you can say that bedieved the tefila works there is no question that they lose the schar for zman tefila.
How did zman tefila become the OK thing to fudge for Orthodox Jews,? The issue is not so much the fact that some people wake up late and try to justify it. The issue seems to be more in the INSTITUTIONALIZING of it. Many from jews speak badly about reform and conservative Judaism (and rightly so) for also institutionalizing the disregard of various halachos. How is this any different?
Don’t say I didn’t warn you all that the whole post was pure trolling. Notice that the poster claimed to be discussing halacha as if he/she sincerely would like to admonish his fellow Jews about clear cut halacha and then gives three examples of issues that are not clear cut halacha.
Even if it is in the Mishnah brurah, if the MB is discussing something based on societal norms, one can not honestly claim that it is “halacha” that is not subject to debate.Not sure if the whole posting is a troll ( the question about jacket and hat as halacha sure sounds suspicious). I think a point that a few other posters have forgotten is that the mitzvah to rebuke someone is only if they are going to listen and the goal is to increase kovod shomayim. It is not just ” I do my part and whether you listen is your problem”. It could be that even if your ebuke is based on solid unquestionable halacha it will accomplish absolutely nothing other than giving you a chance to blow off steam For example, telling certain Orthodox sects that they are praying shachris after the correct time. It could also cause damage and a tremendous chilul Hashem. For example if a tinok shenishbah is told that they are violating shabbos, depending how it is done can be really damaging.
One must use their seichel to determine what will accomplish the greatest goodtorahdownloads.com
I think people are misunderstanding the concept of takkanos today at least in the non-Chassidic world. The idea is not necessarily that there is an evil in our midst which needs to be expunged. It is more that the peer pressure of society allows us to be sucked into many mishugasin which become very difficult to stop once they are started. It is extremely unreasonable to expect people to have the strength to fight against it on their own. The idea of takknos says “Hey we all agree that this is ridiculous and that it is killing us. Can we as a community all agree to cut it out?” Then the Rabbis sign their name to it as if to say congratulations for having some sense.
This gowns thing is a perfect example. All these kallahs who “suggest” the color that everyone should wear is in a sense pressuring families to tack on one more unnessary expense in addition to the headache of finding the “right” gown. All we need to do is tell the kallahs to cut it out. Don’t suggest anything and instead please just tell your frinds and relatives to come as you would like. Have your fun in some other way that does not harm anyone. No threats ordecrees are necessary. Just someone to speak up and say enough already!
I think at the root of the question lies the issue of what are the goals of a bachur learning in Yeshiva is it
A. to gain the skills necessary for life long learning
B. to gain Torah knowledgeIf its 100% emphasis on A then indeed a bachur should never touch an Artscroll. If it is 100% B then he should use it more often than not. Perhaps the goals of a bachur should be a hybrid of both with a bit more emphasis on A at the beginning of his Yeshiva career and more emphasis on B toward the ( projected) end of his career.
If no thought is given to reassess his gaols each year then any serious yeshiva student will be missing out. If a 9th grader can still say that “he is learning how to learn” with the same conviction as a 5th year kollel yungerman then we have a serious flaw in out system.
I think a more significant point than the status of R’ Laughing is to realize that this is not only being read by a bunch of Yeshivalite shmoozing in a Yeshiva coffee room. It is being read by everyone in the world. Imagine you had a brother that you were close with your whole life and then he joins a Conservative synagogue. Make comments with the love and sensitivity that this very brother is reading everything you say hear. What would you like him to hear?
Even insinuating that your brother is a kofer is not the smartest or kindest thing to do. It is also probably not true.
You will not solve the shidduch crisis by telling girls to not bother getting married. It would be a good idea to impress upon girls in both high school and seminary that they can still lead productive and fulfilling lives until they get married. Everyone should be prepared for the possibility they will be one of those statistics that will get messed up by the system and think about how they will lead a fulfilling life and be servants of Hashem if they are not married. OVER-emphasizing marriage to girls is a way to lead to miserable erroneously thinking they do not have a life if they are not married.
Also a good idea to teach the basics of emunah and bitachon and how it relates to shiduchim. For some reason everyone talks on and on about the importance of emunah and bitachon but then feels like they can’t make a move without the shiducch boogeyman coming at them with the idea of “how can you do that? Don’t you know its bad for shidduchim?”I think Milhouse proved my point. When people make grammatical errors when using Hebrew terms people just write it off by saying “oh that’s just Yiddish”. That is essentially saying that Yiddish the language is spoken by low-class ignoramuses who could care less what they sound like. That is an exact parallel to ebonics. For those of you who are not familiar with Ebonics here are some examples with the translation. Believe it or not there are academics who study this stuff…
“I ast Ruf could she bring it ovah to Tom crib.” ( I asked Ruth if/whether she could bring it over to Tom’s place.)
“Befo’ you know it, he be done aced de tesses.” ( Before you know it, he will have already aced the tests.)
Don’t be trippin’ – Do not be anxious
I ain’t gonna be no chump, you know what I sayin? (I will not be easily deceived, understood?)
I am surprised that no one made any mention of the common mistake of putting adjective/description before the noun as is done in English. For example
Chosheve mosad or chosheve bachur (vs. mosad chashuv)Chanuka mesiba (vs. Mesibas chanuka)
Purim seuda (vs. seduas purim)
You may also realize that that there is no term in the sefarim of shalach manos (mishloach manos)
BTW the same people who defend the Yeshivishe way of talking should also defend Ebonics (spoken by African American lower class) as a vald dialect that should be respected. They really are quite parallel.
I do not understand all those who are saying that kiruv in chassidus goes back to the BeSHT or at least the beginning of Chabad chasiddus. There is a big difference between saying “kiruv is a good thing” which just about all Jews agree (BTW- even the non-Orthodox say this) and actively working towards it as a movement.
Correct me if someone has information to contrary but in Chabad the movement toward kiruv did not start until the last Rebbe. It is true that many individuals were moser nefesh to fight the communists under the direction of the previous Rebbe and did start schools but that can not be called a kiruv movement.
Kiruv as a movement in the Litvishe world was active before WW2 with Novardok and after the war in the later 1960’s with Yeshivos like Aish hatorah and Ohr Somayach
The main source for the minhag (I believe) is from the story brought in the Shaloh of the Bais Yosef and his chevrah when they were in Turkey (Chutz laaretz) and they stayed up both nights. The custom was not as widespread until fairly recently and it is odd that most people do not stay up both nights.
The question really should be “what is the alternative”? Your choices are
1. Don’t make any programs for non-frum Jews so we do not run the risk of engaging goyim in kiruv
2. Do extensive background checks to ensure everyone in your program is halachicly Jewish.
3. Have a “liberal” open policy and try to bring in as many Jews as possible. If at some point you realize someone is not halachicly Jewish then you work from there.Answer # 1 is the same as giving up on your Jewish brethren
Answer # 2 is very impractical and will do more harm than good
Answer # 3 seems like the only way.Let’s say there was a cattle car of Jews going to Auschwitz every day and you could save the entire group (with some risk) although not everyone is a halachic Jew, would you do it?
Laewhut-Its not nice to troll
If you are talking about builders of American Judaism post WW2 you can not leave out R. Shraga Feivel Mendelovitz Z”L
I do not understand the question. Most yeshiva bachurim do very much follow the Slabodka mehalaich in terms of clothing only. The norm has become to wear non-iron or pressed crisp clean white shirts and dress pants. The fact that “black and white” has taken over is a separate issue. Your average yeshiva bachur is dressed much more presentable and spends much more on his clothing than most professionals. This is much more the norm than the shlumpy look of old.
The better question is what happened to the real mehalaich of slabodka to work long hours on character development?I think this is also related to a pet peeve of mine which is the way pesukei dezimra is treated today. It has become the “optional” part of davening that the majority of people seem to think is OK to skip. I think if people would follow the Mishna brurah psak of making up the missed parts of PD after davning most people would not be so quick to miss it and davening may get back to a more “normal” pace.
It is true that certain Heimishe hechsherim might have slightly different standards that may or may not affect the kashrus of the food they supervise (Ex: does a production of twizzlers need a mashgiach temidi?) The other factors of the quality of a hechsher are much more important. For example
1. The level of Yiras shomayim of the mashgiach
2. The scientific knowledge of the particular industry that he is supervising
3. Command of the English language (in English speaking countries) and basic wordly knowledge
The work ethic of the mashgiach i.e. does he show up to a production on time to witness the most important parts of hashgacha (relates to number 1)
4. The report of the mashgiach with the workers and owners
5. Knowledge of halacha and the kashrus industry in generalIn my limited knowledge of the kashrus business, I am not so confident that the Hechsherim with little “Yiddishe Oisios” are stronger in these areas than the national “less Heimishe” Hechsherim
Didn’t anyone learn any lessons from the 2016 election? Trying to predict what will happen in the 2020 election will have about as much accuracy as trying to now predict the weather in November 2020. Don’t you realize how fickle the American voter is and the slightest bit of news can make people change their minds? Logic has nothing to do with it.
I don’t know if it is fair to say that the OU is not doing anything. You can not make a statement such as this unless you are “in the know”. The main angle in fighting this thing will be done by lobbyists behind closed doors in Albany, not by ads or letters to the editor in newspapers. For all you know the OU is full steam ahead with their lobby power.
All I know about Rabbi Aderet is the video posting about his comments regarding the Pittsburgh massacre. If we use Gadol Hadorah’s definition that would not seem to fit.
Whatever one holds whether it is based on Torah or their own “boich svarahs” is irrelevant. Having this debate while standing in front of your fellow Jew is unquestionably hurtful and can do nothing other than cause a chilul Hashem. Having a debate on the internet for the whole world to read is the same as talking in front of other people. Do you guys really imagine you are standing in a coffee room and no one else can hear you?
CT lawyer-you are in the wrong part of CT. I just got a haircut today for $5. Even with a 20% tip, it’s hard to beat. No, he is not Jewish. Considering the whole thing takes 7-8 min. it’s not a bad living