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True, yet none disagree with the Chazal of isha ksheira osah ratzon baalah. I’m sure you weren’t saying otherwise.
What makes you think I would c”v say otherwise?
Would you like to quote which part of the Torah you are referring to regarding other reflections on marriage?
Well first of all, we discussed the term ezerk’negdo. If a woman would just be the yes man, it would just say ezer, k’negdo means that sometimes she needs to be assertive.
Then there’s the instance where Sara Imeinu told Avrahm Avinu to send away Yishmael and Hashem told Avrohom to listen to Sara. The wife has a binah yesierah an intuition which could at times clash with a husband’s logic.
Rifkah feared her husband Yitchok and therefore sent Yaakov to Yitchok to get the brachos in an underhanded way. I don’t remember where the source is for this but I definitely read it somewhere that that was not the ideal relatonship one should have in a marriage.
Oin ben Peles listened to his wife and was therefore saved. Korach’s wife caused him his destruction because she instigated him to do wrong. The wife has a major influence on the husband and family. We also see that from the posuk (I’m not sure but I think the posuk originates from Mishlei)”shma beni mussor avicha v’al titosh Toras imacha” the mother has a major influence upon the entire family and should therefore it is her duty to impart Torah values.
The bracha sheusani kirtzoinoy is interperted by some meforshim as to mean that since the woman is spiritually complete and therefore is exempt from mitzvos shehasman grama, she needs to give thanks to Hashem for making her according to His Will but men need to thank Hashem for not freeing them from their obligations to serve Hashem with the mitzvos He gave them.
Some meforshim also interpret this bracha to mean that Hashem made women according to His Will and since He is a Giver, women are too. Women are by nature givers (feminism or liberism- whatever you want to call it, turned women into selfish creatures)and therefore have the role of givers in the marriage and family.
These are just some reflections on the women’s role in marriage and motherhood and I’m sure there are many others that I can’t think of off the top of my head. I need to do some research to unearth more instances of husband/wife roles and relationships, but I don’t have time for that now.
“I think this discussion revolves around the Chazal of “isha ksheira osah ratzon baalah”
My point is that marriage has more angles than only the one question of who leads and isha ksheira osa ratzon baaloh is one aspect in marriage. There are many other Torah views on the subject of marriage and they all encompass the multifacted relationship between husband and wife.
I think that in the area of the Israelis supporting Torah institutions and providing (relative) security there has to be hakaras hatov. But that’s hard when you’re being called parasites and frum parents are being thrown into jail for wanting to practice parental choice in education.
clearheaded, earlier in the thread you said you are submissive to your husband’s authority, so I don’t see that we disagree much in practice.
I definitely am submissive to my husband. And I’m also assertive, in an ezer k’negdo way, when I need to be as well.
I’m sure we don’t disagree in practice as in a healthy marriage a man is the authority, a woman is submissive and sometimes there need to be compromises. I would expect a husband and wife in a healthy marriage to have the common sense to know when the wife needs to be submissive and when there needs to be a compromise.
“Equality of position”
Shma benie mussar uvicha v’al titosh Torah’s imecha. One should listen to the father as he is the authority in the house. And the mother is the one that gives over the Torah’s hashkafas which one should adhere to. Hashkafas shape the family. Clearly, the women in the house has subtle, but tremendous power in influencing her husband and family in different ways. The mother is the influence in the house.
It is self understood that within each role that the wife and husband need to fulfill there is inequality. That’s precisely what the idea of different roles mean -that the husband fulfill his roles and the wife hers.
I agree with you plaid, but not on the inequality of position as only in leadership, rather on inequalities of positions that each, the husband and wife have.
He said there is NO equal leadership.
Exactly. He did not say no equal partnership.
You are splitting hairs with your differentiation between “leadership” and “partnership
Leadership= guidence, headship
Partnership=relationship, collaboration
In my dictionary these two words have completely different meanings so I don’t agree with you that I’m “splitting hairs.”
“clearheaded the difference is that pre wwI it was all about ideoligies. People were mamish willing to die for what they stood for. Today its all about comfort and gashmius”
And therefore? The end result is the same – when it’s ALL about my wants then a person makes bad choices.
I AM saying that the marriage is EQUAL, but everyone has different roles in the marriage. One of them is the leadership role and that is the husband’s.
Now you don’t have to agree with me on my perception of what marriage is and that Rabbi Miller’s analogy applies only in the area of leadership within the marriage and I don’t percieve his analogy of captain and first mate describing the marriage less than 50/50 od the sum total of the marriage, rather that it describes who gets the role of the leader in marriage.
Marriage is not only about the leadership role, but rather the purpose of marriage is to build a binyan adey ad. And to complete this goal the husband and wife need to fulfill their respective roles and those include other roles in addition to leadership.
Again you don’t have to agree with my perception of marriage and how I view what Rabbi Miller meant.
Partners can be equal and yet each marriage partner must fulfill defferent roles so that the marriage can flow smoothly – as smoothly as it could when it’s made up of two different pesonalities and genders.
“None of us should play G-d here. We do not know why each person got their specific trial to overcome.”
I never said that I know the reason why each person got their specific trial. I said that Hashem gave each person the kochos to overcome their spiritual challenges. That’s what we’re here for on planet Earth. That is the purpose of our lives.
The Torah doesn’t have pretty things to say about people casting off the ohl of Torah.Read the curses in the Torah for when we don’t follow it.
Yes, I’m very judgemental of those who think Yiddishkeit, the mainstay of our lives, what Jews have given up their lives al kiddush Hashem rather then give up their faith, what Jews kept for thousands of genererations through blood and tears, what Jews have practiced hiddenly under the threat of death is something one has the right to give up for various excuses. A jew cannot give up Yiddishkeit for Socialism, nor Communism nor Zionism and in the 21st century “mental disease”. These are just covers.
Again, learn the halachos of dan lkaf zchus. Dan lkaf zchus doesn’t apply for someone who openly and continually sins.
“All we can do is accept them and keep trying to help.”
I have no problem with accepting them as people even if I don’t agree with their choices. It is between them and Hashem and they certainly will not give din v’cheshbon to me.
“Judging doesn’t make anything better.”
Accepting their excuses as valid does not make them become better either. I’m not trying to make anybody see the light. I know what I’m talking about. I’ve never seen any teen or adult that went off the derech come back only because his excuses were accepted as valid. Rather those who came back did it because they wanted to. They realized that the non-frum world is empty and shallow and they returned if they felt they would be accepted. Those that do not want to return will not, unless they become willing later in their lives.
I just want to point out in addition to my previous comment that when a couple falls back down to earth with a thud, they shouldn’t get any support for divorce.
The ideas of revolt against a husband’s authority and the unrealistic dream of equal leadership in the family, lead only to unhappiness and failure, and very frequently to divorce
Equal partnership with unequal leadership. Never heard of businesses where there are partners and each partner specializes in their area of expertise?
A succesful partnership in business and marriage is where each partner respects the others part in the partnership and doesn’t try to usurp the others role.
Big deal. Nur nisht argur.
“You’re disagreeing with the gadol hador, as per the quote from his sefer a few posts back”
And why is that? I don’t know of any gadol saying that a husband/wife relationship is like a president/vice pres. type of relationship.
But there’s something you’re not understanding here, humans all have different personalities
Hashem only gives nisyones to people who can overcome them. I never judge people’s choices in general, however those that continually sin have absolutely no excuse for doing so.
I know that therapists, psychologists and the like, like to diagnose all kinds behaviors and apply names to them, but the bottom line is that we make our own choices.
Believe me I watch young women with these disorders struggling daily to understand why they were chosen to live this nightmare of a life. Going off is not their first option. They yearn to fit in and be a part of “normal” jewish life.
So explain to me why their suffering in life doesn’t make them cry to the Ribono Shel Olam to help them and instead they act out?
Explain to me exactly why they need to indulge in sin because of their diseases.
“There are enough frum people who are frum and have these diseases.”
True there are unfortunately many, speak to them, learn their struggles and empathize with their fight rather than say “that’s no excuse
Huh? You answered me on my comment that there are enough frum people with these diseases and your answer does not make sense. You say I should learn their struggles rather than say “that’s no excuse”- for what? For them staying frum?
“we need to get out of this horrible land and get to eretz yisroel where we belong”
The problem that the “law and justice” in Israel is starting to resemble a communist state where people understandably don’t want to live in.
The story with Rubashkin is Hashem’s wake up call to remind us that we are in golus.
The question is whether the term equal is the right term in the first place. Is the President “equal” to the Vice President? As a human being, absolutely. In his function as Vice President, absolutely not. But like you said, if the President becomes incapacitated, the VP takes over his function
I do believe that a husband and wife are equal partners in the marriage with different roles. I don’t believe it’s like the pres./vice pres. kind of relationship where the vice president’s opinions hold little water and he’s basically just holds a lame duck kind of post.
A wife is not like that at all. She is actively involved in the family and marital affairs. Her opinion holds weight but that does not contradict the fact the the husband is the authority and the wife is generally submissive except when the need arises that she be assertive.
I think what allsgr8 said is the right thing to do.
“Wrong. Anyone who goes off the derech is at least a little bit crazy. Ain adam chotei ele im kain nichnas bo ruach shtus.”
mosherose, we as humans can all sometimes sin by tresspassing the halacha so ruach shtuss can sometimes apply to all of us. Ruach shtuss is not the same as having a mental disorder.
Health, check up the halachos of dan l’kaf zchus. They don’t apply to those who sin willfully, in public and continually.
“clearheaded you clearly didn’t read my whole previous post. no one said they don’t have complete bechira and that going off is not the answer/excuse”
Not no one said, but you did mention bechira. However I simply pointed out the comments that you made which I didn’t agree with.
“And no teen goes off the derech because life was blissful…you have to admit there was something there “
So what? Everyone has challenges in their lives, some more some less. Life is not a free for all. It’s a precious gift and whatever we have is a present and what we don’t have is not meant for us. We need to take what we have and utilize it to the utmost, not cry that we don’t have.
“and the way to get them back is DEFINITELY NOT to start blaming them that they had a choice”
I’m not trying to bring them back. They’ll come back if they want to and when they want to.
“And again i’m going to ask this question for anyone to pls answer what does kids going off the derech have to do with mentally not well people?”
That precisely was the point of my previous post- mental health has nothing to do with kids going off the derech.
Having personally gone through a horrifying abusive childhood where I had every “excuse” to go off the derech, have personal experience with people with mental disease and teens who have gone off the derech I can honestly and loudly say that bechira is the bottom line of whether one stays frum or not, period. Unless a teen is so confused that he forgets to eat, sleep, and do other things that a normal, functioning human being doesn’t do and we can classify him/her as so meshugah (I know not it’s not a politically correct word, but for lack of anything else I’ll use it here) as to belong in a home for people who cannot function, then there is free choice regarding yiras shomayim and all other mental disorders are not the real issue here.
This generation that keeps on churning out “mental disease experts” by the thousands, needs to be able to excuse and explain every single bad behavioral choices under the sun.
Kid doesn’t listen-he’s diagnosed with …sorry I forgot the initials , but some kind of defiance disorder. Behavioral problems, no it’s not the sugar overdose, ADD, ADHD, or whatever and presto, let’s give pills, medication, therapy and whatnot but let’s not get to the root of the problem.
Depression too, is treated with pills instead of getting to the root of the problem.
Now, every parent should always try to grow as a parent and as a Jew, however we are all human and everyone makes mistakes. I have seen children from good homes become OTD kids and kids from dysfunctional homes rise above their above to develope into beautiful people.
Now mental disease is a very overused excuse for everything under the sun and in this case is being used as an excuse for kids negative behaviours. Do people want to make bad choices? No and yes. They might not like what they’re doing but it’s too hard to change, so make an excuse ,mental health, abused childhood, whatever, so long as it’s not the teen who needs to change his negative behavior.
Bipolar and borderline personalities are real diseases, but that doesn’t mean one has the excuse to go off the derech because of it. There are enough frum people who are frum and have these diseases.
The most common mental desease that causes kids to go off the derech is B.E.C.H.I.R.A.
she is afraid of her own parents finding out, and of course they would, b/c they’re overprotective and track all she does, etc., etc. really a tough situation.
emoticon, they’re not overprotective. They’re controlling. Control is a form of abuse. Unfortunately, you can sometimes talk to the wall with victims of abuse when you want them to see the light.
Right, but what if the husband is being unreasonable? Again talking reality here.
If husband and wife cannot compromise on an issue, a daas Torah should be consulted.
The ideas of revolt against a husband’s authority and the unrealistic dream of equal leadership in the family, lead only to unhappiness and failure, and very frequently to divorce
Where did I say that there should equal leadership within the family?
I said, the husband is the authority, the wife is submissive. Sometimes the wife is correct and not the husband (just talking reality here, sorry) and therefore there are intances where the wife needs to be assertive.
So, myfriend, when a man and woman get married the woman becomes less equal to the man?
A husband has the role of authority in marriage and the wife is submissive. However, as I said before, in the correct hashkafic framework, the husband and wife have to know when the husband exerts his authority and when there has to be a compromise when the wife feels that she should be the knegdo, a help for the husband by going against or enlightening him to in the correct approach in a situation.
Rabbi Miller zt”l explained the differences in marital roles. He did not say that a wife is less than equal to a husband, rather they have different roles in the marriage as a captain and first mate. In real life a captain is not superior as a human being than a first mate, nor is the first mate’s job less vital for a succesful voyage . I think the analogy of a captain and first mate is an exellent one for if the captain becomes incapacitated and cannot steer the ship the first mate takes over. So too in a marriage, if the husband’s authority becomes incapacited for whatever reason, wrong decision, etc. the wife takes over and becomes the negdo in the marriage so that she can be the ezer.
Some have degrees but are not to smart to say the least. I think what’s missing from our generation are caring, smart people who one can go to to work issues through.
The ideal would be that one should feel comfortable enough to work out issues with their Rav or Rebbetzin. But Rabbonim are very busy these days and most of them don’t a have time for such matters and Rebbitzins cannot be counted on for these things either as most people don’t have a kesher with their Rebbitzins.
Maybe one should go to a wise therapist, but I personally don’t believe in therapists. I have had a family member who went to a lot of “wise” therapists who have very good reputations and had them wrapped around their finger. The family member sold their own version of what’s going on and the therapists were giving their advise on how to go about it. I know about it because that family member had me listen to tapes that they taped down ( for various reasons) of the sessions with these therapists and counselors. I had to keep myself back from laughing when I heard the “great” advice to situations that didn’t exist.
I think medication should only be given in SERIOUS MENTAL – NOT EMOTIONAL- instances.
I don’t believe in “chemical inbalance” in emotional instances like depression. There is always an underlying factor, such as when a woman has depression after giving birth. She sleeps little, hormones overwork, has other little kids to take over… a lot of issues here can be too much for a woman too handle and she can break down from being overloaded.
Depression can also come from spitiual emptiness, where one has emunah question and doesn’t know where to get answers.
There are different underlying reasons for depression and I think that medication will cover up, but not help in the long run. One needs to get to the root of the problem to truly be helped.
This past Shabbos I read an article by Rabbi Shneur Aisenstark in Mishpacha magazine (June 16,’10) on the topic of liberalism.
Among his great article was one paragraph which can sum up the topic of this thread with a prominent Rabbi’s hashkafic view. He writes “Misguided Jewish women who bacame active in the movement did not undersand that in the Torah’s eyes, men and women are equal but different; they have different goals, orientations, needs, and obligations. The influence of the women’s lib movement caused them to feel that they should be allowed to do anything that a man can do, as long as it did not contradict their intepration of halacha…”
I think Zionism is the one area I’m condused about. On one hand, if there is no Zionist gov. as of today could you imagine what the Arabs would c”v do to our brothers and sisters living in Israel.
On the other hand, the Israeli gov. is a zoo, all the politician’s are busy about is devouring each other to advance their careers and they have a consistant anti-religious agenda.
I heard a shuir on tape from Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt’l and at the end where there’s a question-answer session, someone asked Rabbi Miller what he says about Zionism and he clearly answered he doesn’t know, he can’t answer that question.
I wonder if anyone has an opinion, other than outright an anti-Zionist one, regarding the this issue.
The Chareidi school in Emmanual is 31% Sefardi, the Supreme Court of Israel is historically only 6% Sefardi.
Who are the racists???
Yes, they are total hypocrits just like the Communists were suposedly for “equality” while they created an elite class.
This has nothing to do about discrimination against Sephardim as there are the Sephardim are not being discriminated against, rather those who are tying to put their kids into the school are not up to par on the religious level as the rest of the student body.
But how exactly is the Israeli gov acting in a democratic fashion when it feels it can imprison parents for making their decision to take out their children and placing them in different schools. And it doesn’t matter what the reason the parents have for doing that. It’s none of the Israeli gov.’s business.
I must comment on the beauty of the massive public support for those being imprisoned. It’s really touching and brought me to tears. In this case it was a real kiddush Hashem the way it was done.
But again, if I’m not going to lock up my wife and daughter in their bedrooms when other people visit (which, to the best of my knowledge, is not practiced
Some people practice it in theory.
It is accepted Minhag among Chassidim to not have spouses eat with them when they have men over at their house
You probably meant to say it is accepted minhug among some Chassidim not to have spouses eat with them when they have men over at their houses.
Wasn’t Communism all about equality?
Well the Israeli gov is very concerned about equality so they are acting in like a Communist government would.
…but I think it also needs to be pointed out that people like to wax nostalgic about the past. I’m not necessarily convinced that today’s kids are worse than those of two generations ago.
That’s true. Before the Holocaust thousands of young Jews abandoned Yiddishkeit for Socialim, Communism, and Zionism.
People make themselves unhappy by thinking that it’s always better out there, whether it’s marriage or Yiddishkeit, but it’s not a new phenomenon.
On the other hand, people today are used to getting whatever they feel is a necessesity, even if it’s not and they can’t afford it, whether it’s material goods (with the swipe of a credit card) or a better marraige.
SJS, The reason I brought up poligamy was not about how HOW the the application of halachos to our daily lives changed, but the fact that they DID change (we can blog here all day and night if we were to analyze the origin of each minhug of each community in klal Yisroel) and therefore how our ancestors in the midbar applied the halachos to their daily life is different than we do today, 500 years ago and even 100 years ago. We need to follow daas Yehadus and minhugim that is practiced today.
Minhugim for me is not the same as for others in my community (not talking about family and Chassidus, but rather neighbors and freinds) and yet the daas Yehadus is the same for us and we are therefore obligated to follow that.
Daas Yehadus is disdinct for different communities and some don’t accept others opinion of daas Yehadus as being valid or accepted.
I’m not saying what my feelings are regarding socks or stockings I’m just saying talking about the facts.
We know that what Hashem does for us is always for the good, but that does not mean that is WAS something good
…but that does not mean we are AWARE of the good in the suffering.
Were bare feet allowed in the midbar?
The only answer I’ve heard was that yes but people wore long robes. But the same communities that don’t allow bare feet, don’t allow long skirts for women.
Was polygamy allowed in the midbar?
We can’t make assumptions on how to follow halacha in our daily lives based on how our ancestors followed halacha.
Therefore I keep on reiterating the importance on minhugim and daas Yehadus.
Teaching brides and grooms about communication and not being selfish is priority number one.
I totally agree with you on that one.
I’m glad you didn’t include love as priority number one as well, although love in a marriage is ideal.
True. Hashem also wanted the holocaust to occur. The point you are making doesn’t itself indicate either are a good thing.
A believing Jew knows that whatever Hashem does is good.
clearheaded, they don’t out of respect for the civil laws of the states they live in
Wrong, I know of at least one Yemenite with living in America with two wives. But again, that’s phasing out. Yemenite women today in civilized countries would not stand for it.
One can always say the second wife is female freind living in the same house and be married to her according to halacha.
In addition if polygamy would be the accepted practice of frum Jews they would definitely be able to practice it under freedom of religion, as you yourself pointed out yesterday.
There is definitely another religious group in America other than the Mormons you mentioned practicing polygamy. I remember reading about it, I just don’t remember the name of the group.
But again, if it’s not the accepted practice of our times, it’s because Hashem willed it to be so.
The Baal Shem Tov took no position on this matter.
That’s what I said in different wording.
Again, the precise reasons why the ban revocation didn’t go through doesn’t matter. The bottom line is that Hashem guides His world and He was the one that didn’t want the ban revocation to go through.
And many Sefardim, Yemenites, and other fine fully Torah observant Yidden have had multiple wives as recently as even after the State of Israel was founded after WWII, when they brought their multiple wives from their home countries to Eretz Yisroel.
Now even the Sefardim and Yemenites don’t take more than one wife.The Baal Shem Tov took no position on this matter.
The effort needed to get the ban revocation recognized in all communities he felt would be too overwhelming for him to accomplish
That probably means there was a lot of oppostition from other Gedolim at the time.
Also the Baal Shem Tov never spoke about the ban revocation so that definitely souldn’t effect the Chassidim even if it would go through with the Misnagdim (or whatever they were called at that time).
The precise reasons why the ban revocation didn’t go through doesn’t matter. The bottom line is that Hashem guides His world and He was the one that didn’t want the ban revocation to go through.
I know there is no way I would stay with my husband if he took on another wife.
I don’t know if many women would stay with their husbands.
That’s right. No shidduch crisis in the Litvishe/Yeshivishe world.
The Vilna Gaon felt it was time to discontinue the ban on polygamy
So why didn’t he discontinue the ban?
Well it depends. Chassidishe men generally go to work after 2-3 years in kollel, so it would be a very expensive propostion for them to have more than one wife, so I’m sure most would share my opinion. But I think the Yeshivishe men might takeh have a different opinion.
Nuch a mazal.
Minhug and daas Yehadus. I this status will not change even if the cherem is not valid anymore.
Nevertheless as far as point 2 is concerned, even though such a GET is technically valid in the eyes of halacha, it may have been halachicly wrong to have been done, and there even may be penalties involved for having done so. (i.e. if a husband violates Chrem Rabbeinu Gershom prohibiting him from divorcing his wife against her will. Even though the divorce he gave her was halachicly effective.)
A beis din is the one that completes the process of giving a get does not only make sure that the get itself is kosher but also that it is halachicaly acceptable to be done.
Btw, Cherem drabeinu Gershom was only valid for 1,000 and I think the 1,000 years are over already.
Okay, kasha if a valid get could be obtained for petty reasons then a valid get could certainly be obtained for abusive reasons.
A get can be technically valid even though the reason the couple got divorced was very petty and avoidable.
So if one can obtain and HALACHICALY VALID get for petty reasons (remember an halachicaly valid get for petty reasons) don’t you think Hashem created the amazing tool of common sense to know IN WHICH INSTANCE a get should be an option?