philosopher

I’ve read Beyond a Reasonable Doubt by Rabbi Shmeul Waldman and found it weak.

How so?

I think people also neglect the group of people who just don’t believe. They look for logical proof of the Torah and don’t find it, even when questioning some of the right sources.

There are VERY COMPELLING LOGICAL PROOFS OF THE TORAH’S DIVINE ORIGINS.

There is an element of faith in Judaism (hence all the ani maamins) and you can’t logic away faith.

I think faith is more like on what doesn’t explicitly say in the Torah like Moshiach will come again. Certainly we need faith even when the Torah is proven to be true and even if miracles occur before our eyes, because people with faith and people without faith see different things differently.

However, a lot of times with people who go OTD, the process starts when they are very young -early to mid teenage years. There’s a reason why they are called teenagers and not adults. There’s a reason we don’t marry off our kids when they are 13 and 14 years old. People are usually not mature enough at that age!

The Torah says that a girl of twelve and a boy of thriteen years old are responsible for their actions and it’s very interesting but it’s true that the process of OTD starts for some at early to mid teenage years- right around the time where people start being responsible for their actions! I find it amazing.

I’m not saying that one can’t change. I keep on saying that teshuva can be done as long as one lives, however that does not negate the fact that the choosing to go OTD is one’s choice.

Being mature or not does not take away the fact that one can choose to do good or bad. And although the process might start at 13 most who really go off the derech are at least age 16 and up.

1. ALL those who started out at 12-13 doing bad stuff did not end up doing it at 18.

Don’t start with “well they got help, etc.” Very nice but a lot of kids got help and it didn’t matter not one bit.

2. Teenage years, while being a turbulent time for some because they are trying to find their identity is not an excuse for going OTD. Trying to find oneself is a seperate issue from chutzpah, ingratitude- es kimt zich mir attitude, and hurting loved ones with their actions – this is something a good number of OTD’s carry over from their teenage years to adults and they don’t change.

3. Years ago people did marry in their teens proof that bechira has nothing to do with if one is married or not. Our generation marries later than previous ones because we, especially the women, expect more from marriage then years ago where they just paired together two individuals that the parents approved and that was that.

4. There are immature kids that don’t go OTD

I can’t answer WHY Hshm gave them those challenges if ultimately they did not pass them. Maybe they weren’t meant to pass them. I don’t know.

Aha. So just that those who sin could feel good about themselves, we aren’t meant to overcome our tests in life. In other words, if all is easy and keeping Yiddishkeit is a breeze, then great let’s do it. But if it’s a challenge then we aren’t davka meant to pass them. Maybe yes, maybe no, but those who went off the derech probably weren’t meant to pass them as their challenges were extremely diffucult to handle.

Yes that’s where our cavalier attitude to sin and our acceptance of others choices to violate halacha leads us.

the.nurse, are you saying that people do not have bechira, we are just preprogrammed robots?

Can you explain then of what purpose did Hashem put us on Earth for and why did He give us challenges if we are not able to overcome them?

Read Rabbi Aryeh Kaplans books. He will clear up a lot of the murkiness for you.

Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan’s books are fabulous! If you have questions about God or just want to learn about deep mystical topics that can really make you appreciate the beauty and depth of our Torah, read his books! They are great!

Beyond a Reasonable Doubt by Rabbi Shmeul Waldman is also a great book for those who have questions regarding Yiddishkeit.

I meant to right that there were others like me who asked and weren’t given answers…

You can blame people for going OTD, but if they were pushed -the pushers get most of the blame.

They will certainly have to give din v’cheshbon for their actions.

BTW, do you know anyone personally who went off?

Health, yes I do. More than one. Not everyone had a hard life, but one who used to be a close freind of mine had a very hard life. We struggled through the teenage years together, both of us confused. My quest for truth kept me keeping the mitzvos, she thought the grass is greener on the other side. Do you think I respect her?

There is hope for her though. She’s realizing that life is not greener on the other side and hopefully with Hashem’s help she’ll make a comeback.

I think that not only OTD kids are very sensitive. A lot of people today are extremely sensitive.

Sensitivity in itself does not cause people to go OTD. There a lot of frum kids and adults who are sensitive. In fact, because of my childhood where I was constantly critisized and degraded and tried to be forced into a certain mold, I used to be extremely sensitive if someone ever critisized me.

I made a conscious decision not to fous on what others think of me, but just to focus on doing the right thing. That took care of my sensitity, B”H.

Critisizing and degrading or spoiling children are some reasons that cause children to develope hypersensitivity. But also some children have geneticaly predisposed sensitive characters.

A man over 13 years of age (and a woman over 12 years of age) are responsible for their own actions.

A breath of fesh air here. I was starting to fell pretty stuffy in a roomful of excuses.

In order for mechanchim and hanhala to undergo training, they would have to a) acknowledge that there is a problem and b)go to professional (meaning COLLEGE educated) sources, to get that training.

a)there are problems even if the mechanchim try there utmost to do there best because

1. students can sometimes be unreasonable – unreasonably selfish or unreasonably sensitive

2.mechanchim are human and therefore by definition liable to make mistakes

3. yes there are “mechanchim” that are anything but that and should have any other job than a “mechanech”, but they are the minority.

b) excuse me for coming off rude but this is a joke. Go look at all the public school students into drugs, immorality, girls have such low self-esteem the only area time they feel good is when they get boys attention, loud and rude behaviour, teen pregnancies…Yes,yes we need college educated mechanchim. Yes, of course more social workers, psycologists…Ahem.

Now look at the majority of BY type and Chassidishe school and yeshiva students. Most are aidel, with good middos, they are light years ahead of those with secular upbringing.

Are there issues in frum mosdos that need a tikkun? YES, definitely. There are issues that need to be corrected. But applying an infected bandaid will only make issues worse.

In Egypt it was a minority of Jews who voluntarily left Egypt.

During the times of the Bais Hamikdosh, there were a large number of Jews who became Misyavnim.

In the 1900’s the Reform movement began.

Before the start of the Holocaust young Jews left Yiddishkeit in the droves for all type of “isms” -Communism, Socialism, Zionism.

There were always Jews who left Yiddishkeit throughout the centuries as this is BECHIRA- the ability to choose our spiritual destinies any moment of our lives.

Since Hashem created Man with the ability to choose his spiritual destiny, Man chooses. Because most humans do want to do good and not bad, but some still choose to go down the wrong path, excuses are needed for their devient behaviour. The same challenges that Hashem put before each human as a stepping stone to grow, can be claimed by some as THE CAUSE for making them slip down the slippery slope of sin.

Basically it boils down to bechira.

We disrespect our neighbor because we are insecure, our Rav because we don’t want to listen to him, our son’s Rebbi because we want to believe our son is eternally blameless, our mother in law for whatever, our spouse, our co-workers…

You are projecting here. How could you know the precise reasons of why one disrepects the other? Some people may have insecurity problems, but a lot of people do have valid reasons to disrepect their son’s Rebbi, their mother in law, their spouse, or their co-workers.

And if one disrespects their Rov they should find a Rov that they respect.

Is it really probable that when we disrespect a rasha it is because we are standing up for Hashem’s honor?

I can’t speak for others, but in my case, yes.

Do you think Hashem is happy when we use his honor as an excuse for our faults?

No, but why don’t you be dan l’kaf zchus and assume they are doing it for Hashem’s honor and not to prop up their self-esteem?

I agree that when it comes to minhugim then one does not have a right to put down the other. We do need to respect our differences and accept it as well. But as frum Jews, there is a line that we cannot cross by not disrespecting others sinful actions under the banner of being dan l’kaf zchus.

Let me ask you, would you not disrepect those who engage in same gender behaviour? I mean they are genetically predisposed to such behaviour. Can we blame them for enganging in immorality?

Well, being mechallel Shabbos, and other clear halachic violations of those who were frum and trample on our sacred Torah laws are an abomination to God who curses us if we don’t follow His ways.

My opinion is that this feel good respecting of others who violate halacha leads to (if not for ourselves then for our children c”v)an apathetic view of adherence to halacha which our ancestors have clung to even under the pain of death.

Health, just because others don’t agree with you doesn’t mean that they feel they are superior.

You should talk to average frum Bais Yaakov girls. Let’s see if the majority of their lives were smooth sailing without some pain and hurt caused by others, by other girls and mechanchim.

Life is not about excuses. Life is about growing. I’m not saying once someone left the derech they can never return. Totaly not. Teshuva can be done as long as one is breathing. However, to look for excuses as to why someone went off the derech is just that – looking for excuses.

There is no excuse for davka causing pain and hurt for others ESPECIALLY vunerable children. Those mechanchim or parents who do that will give din vechasben. However, sometimes a mechanich can make a mistake and as far as I know mechanchim are human and if one makes a mistake in judgement here or there, we must be them dan l’kaf zchus.

Btw, Health, in a previous thread you were discussing that sin is caused by a ruach shtuss. Now I find it interesting that those who go OTD with excuses of mental illness you excuse with the fact that you feel that they have a ruach shtues. How about applying that to girls who, yes they acted mean (although we can’t really judge them from hearing one version of the story – there might be a different valid version here)but let’s say they were mean because they had a ruach shtuess, acted silly and immature, but are basically good girls (hopefully) and excusing them with the ruach stuesh stuff as well as those who went OTD. Chazal did not say that only those with mental illness can be attacked by a ruach shtuess. So let’s get them off the hook as well.

aries2756, thank you for your kind advice.

As that person with whom I’m having “some sort of relationship” is a parent who verbally and emotionally abused me in my childhood and teenage years, because of the fact that kabod ov v’eim is part of the asserus hadibrus I cannot just lightly cut off all contact from that parent.

Although I’m not saying that how I’m relating to my parent is the way it should usually be done as every case is different, in my case I feel as the Torah clearly obligates us to honor our parents I cannot refuse to cut off from that parent completely because as of today, I can keep enough of a distance not to get hurt, but as it goes with senseless people you are bound to become frustrated. But I think that since it’s such a great mitzvah and an obligation to honor one’s parent, I need to take that frustration into stride.

As I said, this is “some sort of relationship” one cannot get too close with abusive people as they are bound to bite in the end (no matter how innocent they look), but I feel some infrequent contact is obligatory for me.

I certainly don’t recommend a relationship with abuse people, whom I call sharks, in every case, but when one can handle it, then one is obligated to do so (I would think) in the case of a parent. However a “close” relationship with abusive people, whoever they might be, as absolute no-no.

Being around sharks is dangerous -they can bite off huge chunks from their victim. You can only handle them if you’re the zookeeper.

When our gedolim make a decree they dont do it becuz of culture. What goyish culture does doesnt mean anything to us.

mosherose, you didn’t have to send that thought to the coffee room with the baal agaloh. You could’ve done it an easier way through the internet, although I know you don’t like to take advantage of goyishe influences.

We victimize ourselves over and over again when we remind ourselves of the incident and we experience it over and over again while our abuser or victimizer goes about their lives not giving us a second thought.

How true.

So who loses out and suffers when we hold a grudge and do not forgive? We do. So really, forgiving is a gift we give ourselves and it is a self healing accomplishment.

For one incident, I think it’s only fair to forgive someone as everyone is human and could make a mistake in judgement here or there. However abuse that was done continuously is harder to forgive and may take years of work.

I think it’s easier to just let go and not delve on what was done too much. It’s important that we learn lessons from whatever was done to us i.e. how to be assertive etc. and then there’s no reason to be so focused on what happened years ago. It’s important to move on, otherwise the only person we keep on hurting is ourselves.

What deaf person can’t learn basic life skills? What they can’t learn is mitzvos due to lack of communication.

Health, so if a deaf person will ask a Rov a shailoh if he’s puttor from living a frum life because he c”v wants to give it all up, do you really think a Rov will say they may do that? Quoting a Chazal to prove how a halacha is applied in all relevent situations is not the correct way to come to a conclusion of what the actual halacha is.

Maybe a parent was given a child whos personality irittated them, in order for them to learn to grow.

movingmountains, That’s why IT IS a perfect fit!

We are in this world to grow and to become better people by doing the mitzvos. That’s the only reason we are in this world. That’s not to say we can’t enjoy the pleasures of this world in the right context, but we are primarily here to grow spiritualy, by overcoming challenges. Life for a lot of us (and maybe all of us-although some do seem to have an easier life than others) can be VERY challenging, with parents, children or spouses. They are all the perfect fit our spiritual growth.

That what you’re holding so, fits only if you say That Mentally Ills are Not functioning

sam responsible, thanks, that’s exactly what I meant to imply. If one feels that mentally ill people are NOT functioning and fall in the category of shoitah then that’s their opinion.

My opinion is that while there are non-functioning humans that cannot take care of their basic needs, those who fall into the category of mentally ill people are oftentimes very high functioning indeed. Some of them (of course we’ll blame this on their disease) can be so cruel to others and terribly selfish and yet are very smart when it comes to themselves. Other people who were diagnosed with mental illness can be exceptional, accomplished human beings whom others would be shocked to realize that they are mentally diseased.

So here’s my opinion. Down syndrome and the like probably fall in the shoiteh category. But those who were diagnosed with mental disease, generally, cannot use that as an excuse for going OTD.

It could also be societal/cultural as well.

That’s what it is.

Like “hear nor” as smartcookie pointed out, is an accepted pratice by some ultra-Chassidishe couples. It is a “tznius” way of calling one’s wife in public. Walking behind the husband is an accepted practice of some Viznitzer couples (I’ve only seen that in Monsey).

In the opposite spectrum, a picture of a couple hanging on the wall could be an accepted practice in some frum circles.

I don’t think a picture of a couple hanging on the wall is an halachic inyan just like calling one’s wife “hear nur” in public, is not an halachic inyan. It is more of an “accepted” or “not accepted practice”.

The question is where is the fine line that divides the frum communities with those communities that call themselves religious Jews, but are not accepted by most frum communities as practicing the ideal way of Yiddishkeit? I’m not just talking about raw halacha. I’m talking about practices in all aspects of are lives that are subconsciously adopted by Yidden.

Judging other Jews for hanging up a picture of themselves and their spouses in their living room, which is accepted in some circles, is ridiculous. On the other hand, where does the accepting stop and the judging start so that we don’t end up accepting rabbas and the like who call themselves MO?

myfrien, I played around a bit to try to change my posting name and hit on this site.

If you drop the AKA, readers of old posts addressed to clearheaded will be confused who is talking to who.

Moderator maybe you can add an humorous subtitle with clearheaded in it? I don’t mind if it pokes fun at me.

Where can a poster change their display name?

myfreind, go to http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/wp-login.php

I really love your p’shat.

I have researched a phenomena called “poorness of fit”. In short, it explais how sometimes the personalities of a parent and their child clash, and leaves the blame out of the equation entirely.

Hashem is the one that gave the children to their parents created their personalities as well, and I certainly think He designed the perfect fit.

sometimes the personalities of a parent and their child clash, and leaves the blame out of the equation entirely.

Nunu.

Clearheaded -Not everybody who is mentally ill can’t control themselves and are Putter. Some can and some can’t. Stop trying to paint every mental patient the same

This is my opinion – if you don’t like it lump it – that mental illness is not an excuse unless someone can be called totally meshuga (don’t know a nicer way to put it)as to not know how to take care of themselves. When they don’t know right from left then they don’t know right from wrong either. Otherwise my personal opinion is that no one has the right to do aveiros under the guise of mental disease or other excuses. Take it or leave it.

How can you call this a double standard? Even if you went to Rabbi Weiss’s school and you are a Rabbah, you can’t pasken.

I didn’t extrapolate anything- you said -“mental disease is not an excuse for going OTD”. This is a P’sak Halacha

Maybe in your book this is psak halacha. In mine, if someone states an opinion I can agree with it or not, but I certainly don’t look at it as someone’s halachic psak.

What your saying is -mentally people are so twisted, that they know they are mentally ill and that they know they really can control themselves, but they want people to think that they went off because of their mental illness (which isn’t the case acc. to you) in order to fool everyone why they went off.

I don’t think they want to fool anybody. Some people use their mental illness as an excuse for going OTD.

Or are you saying people like pretending they are mentally ill, when they are not.

I never said that. I only said in previous posts that sometimes the underlying roots of the mental illnesses are not addressed.

People or even YOU saying that guy’s crazy doesn’t mean anything.

Whatever that means.

I never heard a person who was OTD say -“I’m OTD because I’m mentally ill.

Because you didn’t hear any body say that, does that mean that they could use mental illness as an excuse for going OTD? What’s your point?

People only admit to mental illness when they have a real diagnosis.

Obviously. Who said otherwise?

This sounds twisted to me and you call yourself “Clearheaded”!

This is the second time you are commenting on my posting name. I see it bothers you. Truthfully, I don’t like this posting name myself. I registered under that name once when I wanted to comment on a news post and was too lazy to try to change it untill the name really got on my nerves and I tried again yesterday, but it didn’t work.

But when I saw your post today I got second thoughts of changing the posting name and thought of davka leaving it like that.

But it would be immature on my part to not try to change a posting name that annoys me just because an anonymous poster has a bone of contention to pick.

I didn’t say that all OTD comes from mental problems.

And I didn’t say that you said that.

You seem to think you are a poisek by saying no mental disease is an excuse -you’re not!.

What gives you the right to extrapolate and say that I think that I’m a posek? As far as I know poskim don’t sit in the coffee room (especially as much as I do).

You are correct, it’s my interpretation based on many years of learning.

Interesting how you feel you have the right to interpretate halacha and when I do it you say that I seem to think I’m a posek. Talk about double standards.

This is an Oxymoron. You equate people with mental illness with Mummer L’hachas. By saying “guise”- I guess in your mind there is no such thing as mental illness -something that was just made up by a bunch of shrinks!

Please try to comprehend better what I (and maybe other people as well) am saying.

I didn’t equate people with mental illness with mumar lhachas. That’s false. I have said that mental illness is not an excuse for dropping Yiddishkeit.

When I say that they dropped their Yiddishkeit under the guise that “mental disease caused them to” that’s exactly what I mean – that they used their mental illness as a guise for dropping Yiddishkeit. You twist my words out of context.

Health, answer me clearly

1. Aren’t there or are there people with borderline personality disorder, bipolar, and clinical depression and other mental diseases and they are frum?

2. Do you think that those who are diagnosed with mental diseases would agree to be called shoitim?

“We were judging them up at the time they went off and at that time they were keeping mitzvos.”

I thought you’re not judging them? Anyway that’s you’re interpretation of the application of halacha.

“It seems you need to look down on all not-frum Jews, esp. the teenagers”

I don’t look down on non-frum Jews in general and never indicated as such. I do look down on those that could so carelessly and callously shed all vestiges of our holy religion under the guise of “mental illness caused them to”.

“Do you need to feel superior than them for your ego?”

This is not the first time you attacked me regarding my opinion where I don’t agree with you. I think you need to work on your ego first and maybe your urge to attack others who have a different opinion than yours will recede.

“No one is condoning their behavior, but they have to realize whatever the reason -the benefit of being Frum outweighs that reason! “

And therefore I need to agree that there OTD behavior stems from mental health? What’s the connection?

I also think that Hashem wants us to be more b’achdus and also to remember what we keep on forgetting – that we are still in golus.