philosopher

One’s upbringing is able to have very negative and lasting results on one’s psyche.To simply state that people in these situations should “snap out of it”, “deal with it”, or whatever, is not realistic.

I definitely agree with you on that and never said otherwise. Kids and teens who have been abused can be angry and confused, scarred and wounded and I never said otherwise.

Don’t you agree that at the very least she is LESS responsible than other people?

I’m not God and don’t have to agree or disagree, God is the Judge.

And if she is less responsible, could it not be feasible that she is fulfilling her responsibilities in a better manner than some people who you deem to be doing the right things?

Hashem has explicitly said that we cannot sin and there will be repercussions if we do. Some have unfortunetly forgotton that we are in golus and why we are in golus.

Those who struggle in trying to define Yiddishkeit for themselves, they don’t respect their teachers and parents but still want to do the right thing they keep Shabbos and basic halachos, yes they deserve a lot of respect.

But those who have cast off every vestige of Yiddishkeit, trample on the very basic of halachas, how in the world can one say they are fulfilling their responsibilies?

You as a parent are responsible if the kid goes off the derech and all his averos will be on your cheshbon.

After the bar mitzvah age, a child is responsible for their own actions. The parents will not have to give din v’cheshbon for the child.

If a parent abused or mistreated a child, they will give din v’cheshbon for that.

i did not talk about respecting the sin

Some people have talked about respecting others choice even if they are sinning or nachas even if they are not frum.

i talked about showing the kid acceptance even if he hasn’t made a spiritual step yet.

love and acceptence makes in a thousand times easier for a kid to come back, and even just to make that first step.

Love is very important – an OTD should never feel shunned. About acceptance – I agree they need to feel accepted as people, but not their sinful actions.

A frum Jew cannot respect and accept sinful actions.

And as I said before, not respecting sinful choices of OTD’s does not mean we can act in a disrespectful or demeaning fashion with them. We need to act respectfuly and not reverently as some are wont to do, as we do with every Jew.

But we should not and could not respect or accept any sinful choices that they make.

i hope for your sake and your children’s sake that all of your children will be clearheaded teenagers really.

I hope and pray this will be so, and I’ve also made a very big personal sacrifice for my children’s chinuch because of that, but ultimately “everything is in the hands of shomayim chutz yiras shemayim.”

because “nachas is not tied up only in returning to yiddishkeit” is a very very true statement.

If Yiddishkeit is of paramount importance to a Jew, then that is an absolutely abhorrent statement.

the first step an OTD kid makes to return is very often being clean, sober, or whatever else they were doing that isn’t what a Jew should be doing. and the only way that that will become ‘the first step’ is if those close to him show him that he’s giving them NACHAS, even if it’s not necessarily the most yiddishe nachas you can think of.

WE must remember that in all steps that we take we need not gefel for human beings, we need to gefel for the Aibishter and if for the Aibishter it’s not a nachas for that a Jew is sinning, and the Aibishter explicitly says so numerous times in the Torah and we are in golus because of sins, it should not nachas for us either. If an OTD kid or adult for that matter is on the road to teshuva and step one is becoming clean and sober, then there is indeed much nachas in that. But when that’s where it ends and an OTD goes on to lead an OTD life then there is no nachas for Hashem and neither should there be for God fearing Jews, until the OTD is on the real path to teshuva.

philosopher: So if you agree you are subject to your husbands authority, what’s the problem?

If I don’t spell things out very clearly then people misconstrue what I’ve written.

I have finished my one before the last post with the sentence:

em>Truthfully, while some things are a given that I yield to my husband wishes, we do mutually share a marriage where opinions are usually equally considered.

I wanted to stress that while my husband’s and my opninions are mutually considered equal, I still subject myself to my husband’s authority regarding minhugim and the like.

Oomis pointed out that sometimes the wife needs to take charge. Even with Rabbi Miller’s analogy of a husband being the captain, we must realize that Rabbi Miller never dictated to us HOW that should be done, and the fact is there are barely four halachos (maybe a few more that don’t know of) that show the husband is the authority in that particular area that halacha perscribed but not more, as marraiges are not cookie cutter shaped and the ikkur that Hashem wants of us is that there should be sholom bayis in the house.

In any case, I’m realizing that while I thought the cause of teens at risk should be analyzed, I’m starting to see that it makes no actual diffence as to what the cause is.

We cannot help it that there are abusive parents and that someone an treated OTD kid in a manner that caused them to go OTD. Hashem runs this world and whether the causes are behira or bechira for those who go OTD, the fact is that we cannot change the world.

What can be done in chinuch institutions, making sure that there are mentors kids can confide in, whatching out for signs that indicate internal turmoil i.e. slipping grades, being warm to the students etc., these are things that should be done to ALL students in our mosdos, all children of the Aibishter who need a little warmth and the feeling that someone cares for them, irrespective if they have ideas of going OTD or not.

WIY, you don’t really have to answer my last post.

The point that I’m trying yo make is that we are here in this world to overcome our challenges and become better people. There is a din and a Dayan, there’s Gehenim and Gan Eden, and there’s a choice to do good or evil.

How Hashem will judge us and others, while we may discuss behira and bechira, we cannot know.

But for us, sinning b’mezed cannot become acceptable.

sofdavar, the argument is about if the those going OTD have bechira or not.

max well, you are right as well, because whatever mitzvos Hashem obligated these 13 year olds to keep, they have the ability as well as the obligation to do so.

Btw, I wasn’t being sarcastic in my last post.

I really appreciate Mod-80 and all the other moderators in the CR.

Clearly what this says to me is that there is a maturation process. At thirteen we expect a youth to be able to handle certain responsibilities. As he progresses and matures towards twenty, he becomes more and more responsible for his actions, thoughts and ideas.

I agree. But whatever the Torah deems a a 12/13 year old to be responsible for, they have the ability to handle that resposibility.

Wolf and 000646 please excuse the long wait for an answer as I have said before I written a wrong megillah and pressed a button which somehow deleted the contents of my post.

Fist of all, there is no question that we need emunah. Emunah is a tool we use in aquiring the truth. Without emunah we can discount the most logical of proofs. Emunah is a spiritual concept and obviously if we can only go by physical proofs, then logical proofs which are not in the physical realm will be discounted as well.

The answers to the following questions are complicated and I will answer them as soon as I am confident that with Hashem’s help I can do so in an articulate fashion.

But it doesn’t matter, because even if I grant you that it is, I don’t see how this proves the Torah is divine. All it proves is that a lot of people hate us for a long time.

from Wolf

The fact that many people hate Jews for no reason just proves that many people are bigots nothing more. from 000646

I will answer this as soon as I can.

Do you think that Jew hatred is the only illogical long-standing hatred in the world today?

Well, which different nation was hated for so long?

Why do you say that? There are several religions that are of the same approximate age as Judaism — and they, too, have rules and regulations about their lives.

Which religions are of approximate age as Judaism? Christianity became a religion approximately one thousand years after that and Islam even later. Now these two religions which together are practiced by a majority of the world’s inhabitants are man made copies of the divine original. Can I ask you why, over one thousand years later than the Torah was given, couldn’t people come up with something, different new and exciting to appeal to the masses?

In addition, as the Torah and consequently the halachas were given to Jews, the goyim could not keep the mitzvos of the Torah. The Christians do not have laws that they must follow daily, the Moslems have some, but certainly not the amount that Jews have to follow the minute they wake up until they go to sleep. Between washing negel vesser, brochos, davening, brochos on food, watching oneself from talking loshen hora, eating kosher, being b’tznius… a Jew is never done.

Frum Jews are already programmed to think and act in this manner, we don’t even realize that every action we do is because of the halachos we keep. But ask any baal teshuva what the difference is between the life a frum Jew and those not keeping the Torah.

The only way we can be voluntarily controlled like that with hundreds of laws is because the Torah is divine.

Also, while the the way all these laws are applied to our daily lives is different than in the midbar the core halachas are the same. Could we take anything as an example that is as old as the Torah, that is man made, not stuff Hashem made like air and water, but man made ideas and objects that is that old and has survived this long that we actually live with today?

Not only did the adherence to the Torah survive all these years, but it survived the most trying conditions, when the Jews who are the ones living the Torah laws were banished from their homeland,disperesed throughout the world, killed, persecuted , went through forced conversions, they went through conditions were any other nation gave up their religion when they went through all of that like the Moslems who gave up their former Christian religion when it was forced upon them by conquering Muslims.

Also, the Jews are dispersed throughout the world today for hundreds of years already. Throughout all these years that Jews lived in different in different countries, their cultures and minhugim are different wouldn’t you think the versions of halacha would change? The way it is applied may be different for each mokom as well as each generation, but the core halachas are unchanging with time and place and religious Jews practice the same version of the Torah since har Sinai.

Even the Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, the Jews who do not even beleive the Torah is from a divine source always quote the Torah when they want to as their sources, lets say for ethical treatment of animals and such. It’s true they only refer to it when they want to, but one would think with their view of Judaism they would not quote the Torah to support their opinions.

First of all, there are plenty of legends that are beleived by many thousands and even millions of people to have happened in front of thousands of people (some supposedly happened as recently as the early 1900s i.e. the story of the “miracle” of fatima)

If there are plenty of legends that happened in front of thousands of people why do you bring me only one example?

I’m not sure with the story of Fatima you mean the girl you was dragged by a horse because she didn’t want to marry an Arab. If it’s that story you’re reffering to, than I don’t see why you say it was a legend. This was witnessed by a lot of people, I’m not sure if it was hundreds or not, and there is no reason this story shouldn’t be believed that it really happend. It might have been embelsihed, like the fact that she stuck a pin into her leg to keep her dress in place, but the main story could have easily happened. We are not talking here avout ten, twenty meshegoyim who claimed that they saw a heavenly spirit coming down from heaven or such mythical stories where we don’t believe stam anyone. But this happened in a town where all the inhabitants witnessed that story. Witnesses are witnesses.

If we are going to refute stories that are witnessed we can refute all of American and world history and just stay with the archeological digs in Egypt and South America and maybe some journals and books here or there. History is complied by those who have witnessed events and it was passed down. What “happened” between two, or thirty people could be a legend, but not what was witnessed by masses of people.

I will answer the rest of your posts when I get a chance to.

Oh my gosh, I had a huge megillah written for Wolf and let me see how many 0’s okay 000646 but I pressed backspace and the ENTIRE post got erased.

Gam zu letovah.

I’ll have answers for you soon, IY”H.

As for your ‘proofs’, I can only echo what SJS and rebetzin said. There are arguments to the contrary as well, and refutations to every point you’ve made, which demonstrate, at the very least, that there can possibly be other explanations. I am only debating with myself whether or not it is worth playing devil’s advocate here.

Bring it on. Let’s here you’re refutations to the proofs I’ve written about.

You are presenting your speculation as fact.

I try to write I think, or it’s my opinion. But since I write so many and such long megillas and because I’m usually in a rush to get my thoughts down between all my motherly duties, when my baby naps, the kids are playing outside or at night (when I really should clean the windows, wash the walls, and put away laundry… oh well), I sometimes neglect to specify my thoughts exactly as I mean it, just like I make grammar and spelling mistakes as well because of this.

I believe most of us in the CR are mature enough to realize when one is stating a fact or an opinion.

Now the Torah’s wisdom is forever and if a child is mechiav at age 12/13 to fulfil their halachic obligations then this halacha is so for eternity it doesn’t matter if they are ready for marriage or for work or not. They are still need to perform their halachic obligations.

The way halacha is applied today (boy, did we chew over that in a different thread) is different because our lifestyles are different than years ago. I’ll grant you that.

However, halacha as it is applied today is still halacha and therefor a 12/13 year old child is obligated to follow the halachas relevent for them.

Hashem’s halachas are binding in every generation – there are no exceptions. But since Hashem did not give the Torah to malachim his halachas are able to be carried out by humans whenever they are applicable.

Therefore, although because of the way we live today 12/13 year olds don’t get married, don’t work and generally are considered immature enough to exclude them from major decision making, they still have obligations they must fulfil and Hashem who created these laws that bind us in all generations knew exactly what could be required of 12/13 year olds. And we do see these cute “little” bar mitzvah boy, some of them seem to be wearing hats bigger than them, performing halachas that are an obligation to them.

And if they are obligated they also have the choice of c”v not fulfilling the halachas because of bechira, which we see some boys unfortunately do as well.

I am continuously amazed by the divine wisdom in the Torah which knew that even at what we consider to be such a young age, merely a child, the Torah knows that they need to fulfil their obligations at this age so that it will shape them throughout their teenage life and then the end result will be a man or woman who’s service to Hashem is already part of them.

No one is asking anyone kid to make huge, big decisions. the decisions that they are already making they must try to make the right choices and Hashem helps them.

My kids who are younger than 12/13, they are in their tweens,very much have the ability to choose between doing right or wrong in the decisions they face. These decisions are not major, it’s everyday behavioral choices, but they are still choices.

No, when they turn 12/13 they still won’t have the maturity to make major decisions but the Torah doesn’t require that.

aries, you make it sound as if kids in pain cannot make any decisions. You say “they want to rip and tear the pain off of their bodies, out of their hearts and their minds.”

First of all, don’t generalize. There are indeed kids that are in much pain. I definitely agree with you. There are also kids that are NOT in pain, they just want are just not interested in Yiddishkeit for various reasons.

Now we all have feelings and wants and opinions. In the face of halacha they matter not one bit. Therefor, if Hashem felt that a child of 13 whose in pain is still obligated to wear tztizis, he is still obligated, finsihed. If he chooses to do wrong and doesn’t fulfil that obligation, there’s the possiblity of teshuva. However that choice, the bechira of not wearing tzitzis is still his.

There’s no such thing that because he’s in pain he doesn’t wear tzitzis. Rather, because he’s in pain, he DOESN”T WANT to wear tzitzis.

I’m not saying how he will be judged by Hashem. I’m not talking about that, I don’t know and it’s not my business.

I am saying that

1. even kids in pain make choices

2. and those choices are called bechira

Kids generally go OTD much later than 12/13 years of age. Kids who make wrong choices by 12/13 doesn’t necessarily mean they’ll go OTD.

Great blinky! I’m so happy for you.

So were you confident or played nervous?

Because a child that went off the derech and left behind frum parents and siblings, frum friends and went off the derech not because he “went to” a better life but because he or she was running away from something hurtful and painful will not argue with you that the life they are now leading is “better”. They are not going to argue with you at all.

Mr. aries, OTD’s argue ALL the time. Please, while there are those that do want to come back they who won’t argue. those who don’t want to return to Yiddishkeit will repeatedly say how happy they are with their current lifestyle, that’s it’s much better and they’ll continuously argue about Yiddishkeit even if their arguments make no sense.

They might not argue with you because you respect them and accept them the way they are, with their current actions so why would they even argue with you?

Philosopher, there are compelling arguments for the divinity of the Torah, but there are also compelling arguments against.

Like what?

If you are talking about Eisav soneih yaakov, its actually Yishmael in this day and age.

First of all, not all Muslims are of Arabic descedants. In any case the Torah clearly says that if we won’t follow Hashem’s will we will be at the mercy of our enemies.

We know from the Torah that that’s what golus is. Being hated and persecuted by the nations.

<e>I’m not sure what your #2 means – because we still follow laws they are applicable? There are other religions that still follow their laws and customs, many years later.

I precisly mentioned tens of laws per day not some laws and customs.

The tribes in the jungle have customs dating back to who knows when as do all major religions. But which religion would people still follow if they had to adhere every moment of there lives to numerous laws?

From when we arise to when we go to sleep, every moment of our lives in dictated by halacha dating back to har Sinai.

The amish have even lower rates

The Amish have much smaller communities than the frum, hence the lower rates.

To be honest, those are the weakest “logical” proofs I’ve ever heard.

That’s fantastic. What are the strongest logical proofs that you’ve heard?

I attended a Chassidish high school.

Out of 30 girls only one went OTD.

I dont think we need to make major changes just for such a small minority.

We can always try to make improvements in the chinuch system, but a major overhaul we do not need.

The chinuch system is working wonderfully. I am b”H very satisfied with my kids school. There was one teacher I thought was absolutely terrible and ignored my child who bacame very withdrawn that year. I was very angry. But a one of my daughter’s classmates mother raved about how good of a teacher she was. Life is not black and white always. You can’t always win. Such situations are teachable moments too for kids. I always say that life is not exactly how we want it to run and kids need to realize that and know how to deal with such situations and not collapse when the slighest thing goes wrong. School is a breeding ground for such lessons.

All in all, I think most schools are doing a great job of educating the Yiddishe doros. Most principals and students do care about there students and try their best. Yes there are definitely some mechanchim that should absolutely not be in that field and need to find other jobs. But those are the exceptions.

I understand that someone past Bar/Bat mitzvah is responsible for their halachic obligations, but that doesn’t mean they are mature..

That’s right. They might not be mature enough for marriage but they are still responsible to fulfill their halachic obligations. Exactly.

It also doesn’t mean they have the ability to stand up to peer pressure or get the right answers to their questions.

No one drops out from one day to the next. It’s a process. If one wants to do good Hashem helps, and the same is with the bad.

Little decisions add up to create the person who drops out or stay frum. That is precisely why 12/13 year old are esponsible for their actions.

Teens today are not given enough acknowledgement for being the people they are and basically looked upon as the mixed up, immature kids. While teens don’t automatically make heavy choices when they turn 13, like if they want to be frum or not, it is the age where they do MAKE choices that all adds up in the end to become who they are unless they make a conscious decision to change afterwards.

Max well, you think a Bar Mitzvah kid is an adult? So, you would have no problem with your 13 year old son getting married?

I have already written about that. One is responsible for his at age 13 and this does not have anything to do with getting married.

Years ago girls got married by 12-13 and boys by 16.

In fact gypsies still get married by that age too.

Today we get married later because we want more out of marriage than years ago and we need to mature before we realize what with what kind of person we want to be married to.

However even if a person is not mature enough for marriage at age 20, they are still responsible for their actions. These are two seperate things.

I forgot if I show you it’ll come out in italics. Ha, ha.

It is easy for everyone to come forth with their theories , but to put it into practice…………….

I’m sure you’re doing a great job. Hang in there.

Maybe I shouldn’t have capitalized There are VERY COMPELLING LOGICAL PROOFS OF THE TORAH’S DIVINE ORIGINS, as everyones logic is different and those who want to SEE the proof, see it. And those who don’t, don’t.

I would not want to live my life not being sure if the Torah is true.

Here are what is for me logical proofs of that the Torah is divine

1. Eisav sonei l’Yaakov. In today’s times we see it in the nations’ illogical hatred towards Israel. Why the neverending baseless hatred towards the Jews?

2. The Torah laws are applicable even in today’s time, approximately 3,000 years after it was given. We’re not talking about two, three laws, we’re talking about tens of laws applicable each day for each Jewish male, less for women per day, but still hundreds of laws dating back to when the Torah was given. Shabbos, dairy/meat, kosher, etc. This is amazing and would never work would the laws be concocted by mere mortals.

3. Frum communities, while they have their share of social problems have major differences in percentage of crimes than the outside world

suicide

murder

immorality – which include out of marriage pregnencies, cheating on spouses, teenage immorality, same gender behavior

violent crimes

I feel that while there are all sorts of abuse, being a victim myself, I’m sure I’m not the only one, but I feel that the feeling that there are tons of victims and there is a wall of silence is untrue. I feel this issue too is pretty low in addition to the others I’ve mentioned, according to the non-frum communities.

Depresion is a rising issue but I feel that that’s manmade within our communities and were we to follow the Torah’s ways, like living b’tznius, within our means, not only regarding housing, but simchos also and other self made disasters life depression would be much less rampant than it is.

Were we to live Torah way we wouldn’t have so many depressed people. My point is that because the Torah’s is of divine origin it’s ways are pleasant. Not living according to the Torah’s ideals causes us problems.

Maybe you need to learn what a proof is. A proof is something which cannot logically be denied.

Everyone logic might be different. I would assume if the Torah giving to klal Yisroel were a mere legend it wouldn’t happen to 600,000 Jews rather the Torah would be given privately to Moshe Rabbeinu and he would pass it further.

Legends can be accepted as factual occurances if not more than a couple people claim that they saw what happened with their own eyes and people believe them.

You will never find a legend that 600,000 people witnessed at once. Such a legend can’t take flight.