philosopher

So then who is set in their way of thinking and is not open to changing it?

I have arrived to my conclusions after much doubt and searching and have come up with truthful answers. After coming to conclusions based on weighing the most challenging of life’s questions I will not change my mind because of that fact that a poster in the CR is stuck on the Aztecs or the Fatima story or some other inconsiquential subject. I don’t mind having a good argument, but I do mind going around in circles.

My questions, reasoning and probing was centered on life’s main questions similiar to the ones I posted to you yesterday (btw, there were three questions as you see even though I mistakenly wrote a 2 by the last question).

I have come to my conclusions. I am not trying to make you change your mind about anything as it says everything is in the hands of Shomayim besides yira Shomayim. So if Hashem gave the bechira for a person to choose what they want believe I certainly cannot change that.

I originaly thought the way you do but changed my mind after actually seeing both sides of the arguments.

So I hope you have clear answers FOR YOURSELF not for me, to the questions I presented to you yesterday regarding the crucial issues in life because one day you’re going to face these realities and there will be no hiding behind your choice to believe or not to.

Have you actualy looked into and researched these “proofs”? (BTW by “looked into” I dont mean read a book by someone who agrees with your preconceived view of things and how they portray their opponent’s arguments.)Or have you simply decided they are good proofs because you read a book by somone who thinks so, or havnt thought of any way to disprove them yourself?

The logical proofs I believe in are my own logic after doing research, thinking and analyzing. Just like I did in The Torah is Emes thread.

I certainly won’t take “facts” as such from scientists who are athiests and cannot answer the simple, basic question of how did life begin. They ignore that question and instead build whole buildings on no foundations with their “scientific proofs”.

I also do not believe other religions which are fake copies or other manmade junk that with basic common sense one can see they have no hands nor feet.

I originaly thought the way you do but changed my mind after actually seeing both sides of the arguments.

Wonderful. I’m sure you have all the answers I posed to you yesterday and otherwise I’m sure you are %100 that the Torah is not divine. Therefore, since you are so sure of yourself, since you are totaly convinced that you don’t believe the Torah to be divine , then you have nothing to worry about and enjoy your life.

Just remember, if the truth sometime hits you in your face there will be no excuses.

It may go up in edited form.

Mods, please don’t put it up only for my benefit.

I have no interest in going around in circles.

Im pretty sure my response here to your post isnt gonna be let through….but at least i tried.

000646 Thank you for trying. I’m guessing that this is only part of your post and the rest was not posted.

The truth is whatever true argument I will bring forth will not please you because you are set in your thinking so what’s the use of going back and forth.

You don’t have to answer me, but I think you should be clear on these issues for your own sake.

1. What is the purpose of life and at the end of a persons life what happens to that person? Do they just drop dead and all the thoughts, ideas, aspirations and feeling dissapear along with the body?

2. The physical body is an amazing tool with every atom working with amazing precision and the whole universe is astounding, with every single creature and inanimate object has their important place in our ecosystem and the heavenly bodies are awe inspiring. What is the purpose of this all? Who created this and for what purpose? Do you believe in the big bang theory and if you do how did life originate from dead matter and how did the matter that that supposedly collided with each other come to be there in the first place?

2. If you believe there is purpose in life then where do we find that purpose? Where do we find the answers about life and our Creator?

I have the answers so you need not post yours. I’m just suggesting that you be clear on these issues yourself because one day we will not be given the choice of what we want to believe the truth to be. We WILL face the Truth and if we have wasted our lives on narishkeiten what will we answer before God who has given us this precious gift of life?

areis, you’re amazing. I say what I do and you go and advise me that I should do what I do.

First of all, I have every right of being a freind to my freind and stopping that relationship when I felt I was taken advantage of and I didn’t wait around for you to tell me that.

Second of all, I repeat as I said before, I didn’t try to change my freind, I just tried to be a freind. Thank you so much for informing me that I am not cut out to work with OTD people. I never would have thought of that. Since OTD’s and I are really on the same page, I thought they would respect me as much as I respect them.

Don’t tell me you’re going to respond to that in a serious manner.

Last of all, you wrote

PHILO, the problem is that not everything on your mind or in your heart has to come out of your mouth. So if you see a child that is OTD, you don’t have to say anything. If you choose to say Hello, leave it at that. You don’t have to analyze them, or offer your opinion of what you think of them.

Don’t tell me you wrote that because of what I had written to apushetayid:

Yep, right. If I meet an OTD person on the street and converse with them or even if I don’t, if I’ll just want to greet them I’ll say “Hi, how are you? By the way, I just want to let you know, since I’m an honest person, that I don’t respect you because your an OTD”.

If you took what I wrote at face value and didn’t realize I was kidding then you are much more naive than I thought you were!

This may be a politicly incorrect thing to say and I’m not sure that the mods will let this up, but many people who are OTD are just as sure that being frum is wrong as you are that it is correct. The fact of the matter is there are no logical proofs that being frum is correct and the emotional benefits may not be apparent to somone who has not experienced them. Somone may also be of the opinion that they are not enough of a reason to be frum.

Whatever one wants to see they’ll see. Truthseekers find truth and those who don’t want to face the truth, do not.

You have to respect and accept that not evreyone is going to agree with your opinion of unprovable things …

Unprovable? Of course, if you want the proofs to be anything but, it takeh won’t be. Millions of people accept the murdering of others they deem infidels as rightous deeds. Why? Do you think they really WANT to know the truth? It is easier, more conveinint AND they enjoy the talking and thinking of murder (no not everyone actually does it, b”H)as American’s enjoy their baseball games. Would they really want to do the right thing they would not need to go too far to realize that murder is murder.

…and that thinking less of them and pitying them for it is going to come across as arrogant and wrong.

If the Torah spoke the truth about greater humans than OTD’s because the truth needs to be said regardless how these people felt, then we too cannot make decisions on what others feel. I’m not saying we should be rude to OTD’s but those who believe that the Torah is divine and observing the mitzvos is of paramount importance need to be honest with ourselves regardless how we feel about that.

PS. I do not want to debate so called “proofs” on YWN anymore then I have. Not because I can’t but because it is frustrating when your replys dont get posted or the threads get closed when you answer. If you want just research it and actualy read both sides of the arguments. In some cases you can simply google a proof i.e. kuzari proof followed by the word “refutation of”.

How can I find refutations to what I’ve said in the thread The Torah is Emes regarding the Aztecs and more importantly the tochechah?

philosopher: when your child comes home IY”H with a hundred on a math test, what will you say?

emoticom613, I have no idea why you’re asking that question but I’ll answer you honestly. I will would say to my child “Wow! You did a great job! This is amazing! I have to show this test to Tatty when he comes home!”

popa_bar_abba, if Chazal, or Hashem when He gave the Torah, was only thinking about how to make things more exciting and appealing to us then the entire tenets, the Torah and Chazal would look different.

They were not interested in making it attractive. Their only concern was Emes and what they wrote is only Emes. What is attractive doesn’t stand the test of time. Emes does.

We can try our our best to daven the right way and hopefully with Hashem’s help the wellspring of emotion will open one day.

But what is at the root of the mode of dress. It is to attract men.

Mod-80 I forgot to mention that while most frum girls do not dress to impress men in general, Hashem put into women’s nature to want to look attractive which that will be a help in finding a mate and having a good marriage.

And while frum girls don’t necessarily think about attracting men when they buy or wear clothing, they will do so when they are involved in a shidduch where the boy interests them. There’s nothing wrong with appearing attractive to a prospective chosson or chosson, but it is wrong to be dressed pritzusdig.

I’m tired of Jews blaming their own personal failings on others. Own up to what YOU do wrong and figure out how to help YOURSELF. You can’t change others but you can change yourself. Others may provide an easier path to sin, but you do the sin.

That sounds refreshing after all the excuses being rammed down the throats of the CR bloggers.

This comment is no shaychus to the previous shakla vetarya, but this topic is called respecting people, so may I ask what is the definition of respecting ppl? I’m sure there are different types of respect and different matzavim

Tam Mahu Omer, that question hits the nail on the head.

Do we respect any average person like we do a godol?

Do we respect the current President to President Reagan?

I think we respect people by their actions and choices.

I have less respect for people who hurt others than I do for animals as these peole have lowered themselves to a postition lower than animals because they have used their ability for bechira to hurt others. Animals who kill their prey do so because this is what Hashem programmed them to do. Humans have bechira in their actions.

Some people claim that some humans (this is different than sometimes humans don’t have a choice – I would categorize this as behira) don’t have the ability to choose. OTD in most cases, and all cases where one has settled into an OTD life, was because of their ability to choose a sinful life.

Some people feel they need to show MORE respect to OTD people because they might return one day.

Others, unfortunately frum people feel they RESPECT OTD’s CHOICES in life. Yes, they respect the fact that since they were ____ fill in the blank they made their choice to go OTD and we need to respect that.

We need to act respectful to OTD people but not accept their way of life as a legitimate choice nor respect their choice.

When you do a “favor” for another person you do so out of your own sense of goodness. When you continue to do so because you want to help that other person, you are making a choice whether you are doing this because this person needs your assistance (chesed) or do you expect something in return.

Depending on the nature of the relationship(meaning if the chesed is done for family memebers and freinds) , it is human nature to need appreciation from those you do chesed to and if someone just constantly turns to you for favors and doesn’t appreciate or acknowledge the favors with a thank you the desire to help peters out for most people.

You have to ask yourself, why am I doing this? Am I doing this l’shem mitzva because I want to do chesed or because I want to change this person and I believe I can help this person change.

Most people who help others do so l’shem mitzva.

When my freinds and I helped our freind we didn’t think she’s going to become frum just because we are babysitting her kid and we enjoyed conversing and eating in resturaunts. We felt we can give her space and enjoyment so that it might be easier for her to sort out her issues.

But in any case, that’s beside the point. The point is we didn’t like being taken advantage of by her not being appreciative like as if we didn’t have our families to take care of or a money tree growing in our backyard.

When someone does a favor for me I say “thank you so much”. When that favor is doen more than once I really make sure they realize my apprecitation. I think that is common decency and if someone doesn’t act with common dedcency then I wouldn’t bother going out of my way for them. I have enough with doing that for my parent whom I feel mechiav to do so.

We need to understand that WE can’t change others nor can we control others. WE can only change ourselves and control our own actions.

That is a very true statement.

The way we deal with others might change the way they react to us. So by doing favors for others, chesed, we feel good about ourselves that we do chesed.

That depends in each situations. Is someone taking advantage of you, are you doing more than ypu can handle, etc.

By helping someone to make them change their way of life, we usually set ourselves up for failure and for hurt.

That’s a true statement only if the person we are “helping” doesn’t want to change. Some teens desperately want to change and they want and need help with that.

When a person works with the at-risk population because they don’t expect anything in return, they love the children and want to do whatever they can to help, they will be successful with some and not with others, but every little step, every little connection or improvement along the way is a tremendous reward.

This is where we totaly disagree. I do not believe that a person who violates halacha can be considered as having been improved and if you connect with such people then whatever. The thing that should be of paramount importance to a frum Jew and what should be considered rewarding is an OTD returning to Yiddishkeit.

One thing I will say. No matter what a person thinks. A mitzva is a mitzva and even though they feel they might have been taken advantage of or they might not have been appreciated, they might not have seen an immediate result. But the kindness and concern shown did not fall on deaf ears or on a cold heart. YOU did have an effect although you don’t think you saw it. What was done for that individual stays with her through her journey and it will be remembered through the roughest and hardest of times. YOU never know when the mitzvah you did, will have the most or biggest effect on her and make the biggest difference in her life.

It is also a mitzva to refrain from being in the company of moshav letzem and people who sin and have no desire to change. In fact it has very negative spiritual effects on those who keep the company of those who openly and repeatedly sin, and it especially has an extremely detrimental effects if the “being mekarav” is being done in front of one’s family. Children who see smoking on Shabbos, etc. all sin being accepted because these “broken neshomos” might return someday can be negatively effected.

…AND yes BTW she turned her life around.

I don’t know what that means.

I was shocked! I was sure she forgot about me. Do you see? YOU have no clue what kind of impact you make on another person. Stop thinking about the fact there was no hakaros hatov and no thank yous. You really don’t need it. There is a long term result from your mitzvah.

If I would work with OTD’s (which I’m not doing for a variety of reason, but for those who do kol hakovod) then you are right. Regardless, you and I have a different opinion of what results are.

Anyway, it’s different when you act as a freind, not like a counseler/therapist. If you do a favor for a freind you need appreciation. Or maybe you don’t and that is a wonderful good middah. But most humans do need appreciation.

frum attorney, I’m glad you were smart enough to do what you felt was right for you by going to a “college yeshiva”.

It’s important to remember that the yeshiva must fit the teen and it seems to me the Yehiva you had different (I’m not talking about right or wrong – I’m saying DIFFERENT) standards that you had.

I agree with you that yeshivas (and schools too) should also have the option of hashkafa classes for those of us who want to know the WHY not just the HOW.

I still didn’t finish my entire refutation that I wanted to write in The Torah is Emes thread to some posters comments in the thread Cause for Teens at Risk.

I would have loved to finish that off before the thread was closed. Oh well.

Perhaps you meant well, but maybe your friend didn’t take it that way or maybe it didn’t come out that way

She didn’t have to take up the offers if she didn’t like it. AND she asked for favors from us as well.

The world is full of well meaning people who end up doing a lot of NOT nice things

If babysitting her child and going out to resturaunts with her on our tab means “doing a lot of not nice things” then you have a point.

You wrote to aries “However I don’t agree with your hashkafas regading how you relate to OTD’s and I think you are very trusting and a bit naive.

Make sure you don’t get burned. “

WIY, the truth is, that maybe aries won’t get burnt because if we don’t expect too much from people then we can’t get burnt. If we expect basic appreciation and manners from people that we help we can get burnt.

I will not get into how my freinds and I helped a friend that went OTD without any alterior motives, we just felt compasionate for her because she was in a very bad situation.

We went out of our way for her, but there was no thank you no appreciation, her basic manners were lacking. So of course, some will say, yeah well she was hurting, blah, blah and she could’t even say thank you, blah blah blah. My freinds and I felt washed out and used and just stopped giving.

So the truth is if you don’t expect too much from people you can’t get burnt. Yes, that sentence was a mistake on my part because some people don’t expect basic appreciation in return for their work.

If you feel that people should act like menchen you get upset when they don’t and take advantage of you.

With trusting I mean that, we can banech these OTD’s till tomorrow. The fact is that while I didn’t take a count of how many OTD kids were actually abused I can tell you that a large number of them were NOT abused. I have seen OTD kids going OTD because they wanted a different experience or other excuses which have nothing to do with being abused. Of course they’re gonna kvetch that they didn’t get enough att., a teacher picked at them, etc.

Life is not black and white. Just because OTD’s come with a boatload of excuses doesn’t mean they are such nebachs. I’ve seen people with harder lives than these OTD kids and they stayed frum.

If anything, it seems like he is being quite successful and he knows exactly how to deal with them.

Everyone measures success differently. I measure success by OTD’s returning to Yiddishkeit.

On the other hand you very likely have zero experience with these kids and technically have no right to argue because you cant discuss what you have no clue about

I know more than I’m going to write about. I have no interest of making a bigger hole in the can and letting out more worms. It serves no purpose.

The only way to have a clue is to have shaychis with the kids, or with those who deal with such kids and hear what they have to say.

How do you know from where I take my strong opinions from?

One thing I can tell you. I have seen what REALLY goes on, not what people claim goes on.

The power of teshuva and doing mitzvas is great, so is the power of evil.

There has been through the ages bigger and better people who couldn’t change the natural world order of bechira.

I am very suspicious of people who imply that all the experience they had with OTD was successful (yes blame that on my childhood/teenage family experience).

I don’t think picketing is a good idea. It will just create more problems and sinas chinum.

Let’s get to the source of the problem.

Girls in school need to be taught the halachas and motivated (I have given an idea for that earlier in the thread) to follow halachas.

Mothers need to be role models by following halacha and dressing well. But even if a mother does not care too much about fashion and doesn’t care to be fashionable (to each his own) a mother must convey the importance of being a tznua to her daughter.

Only if daughters respect their mothers will they take their mothers seriously. Having a kesher with a daughter and being sincere is of paramount importance in a mother/daughter relationship. (Or parent/child retionship for that matter, as well.)

Also if mothers of boys in shidduchim feel that looks in a girl is of primary importance, girls take notice and feel that they need to flaunt themselves. So mothers of boys in shidduchim if you have daughters and you want your daughters to be b’tznuas it’s important that you show what true values are.

All above is very important, but the most effective way to combat pritzus is the school laying down the laws of tznius standards the students need to meet to be accepted in their school and those standards need to be met whether the student is in school, at home or anywhere else.

Of course the school dress code need not be the same as the tznius standards which may mean that different clothing may be accpeted to wear at home and not at school. Clothing kids wear at home can be more casual than say uniforms, but the tznius standards for dress at home have to be set according to halacha.

WIY, please see my second post in this thread.

A frum Jew can own a store that sells non-kosher products, even a non-kosher restaurant. What do you think happens to meat that after shechita turns out to be treif? It isn’t all fed to dogs!

charliehall, not everything in life is done to the bare minimum of halacha. Even though practicing halacha is of paramount performance, just as there is a concept of basic manners – derech eretz, there is also a concept to of basic frum manners.

Every frum person walking into a grocery store owned by a frum Jew automaticaly expects the foodstuff to be kosher. I think that is basic frum manners that one expects from a frum owner. Also included in basic frum manners is the issue that is being discussed on another thread of not having women singers and music playing in the three weeks in a frum owned store.

While I do agree with checking for labels on unfamiliar food items, most people automatically assume that whatever is found in a grocery store owned by a frum Jew has at the minimum an OU hechsher.

Unless a frum owner has a supermarket that caters mainly to non-Jews, it is a breach of trust, unless one puts out very noticable signs thoroughout the store to indicate that there are treife foodstuff in the store, and definitely not good frum manners if a heimishe grocery store puts out treife food on it’s shelf.

kids at risk rabbi, you’re a real Rabbi with the right hashkafas that can deal with at risk kids.

I can bet that you love these kids, and these kids know it as well, as much as those who respect OTD’s choices in life.

A lot of scarred kids want to do the right thing, they’re just confused. And when someone like you, who is not playing to the tune of fuzzy wuzzy, all is good, it’s your choice, the main thing is that you’re comfortable, kind of fake song, helps them it’s gevaldig.

I really believe that those teens who want to do the right thing eventually sort out their issues, but those teens who are not interested in a frum life, mehn ken zich shtellen oif di kop, you can work your kishkes out, they won’t change.

Of course, there’s still the bechira that OTD’s have anytime in their life they want to change, but that’s irrespective of whether someone was there to respect their choice in life when they sinned. And while I keep on saying that we need to show love for OTD kids (just as we should act towards EVERY jew), and act in a respectful manner to them, we as believing Jews absolutely cannot condone a life of sin.

I think that frum stores which sell pritzus clothing, (pritzus is pritzus – it means very fitted tops and the like, not denim skirts which some frum women wear and some don’t) is like a grocery store owned by a frum Jew who carries treif foods in his store.

A lingerie store is a completely seperate issue.

Thanks Moderator.

I’m not sure how you define respect or what respect you are actually talking of however one thing is clear, any Jew even an OTD Jew needs to be treated respectfully. You may not disrespect, make a disapproving face, embarass, talk down to, hurt or even THINK badly about another Jew. If you feel like interacting, you give a smile and say hello and treat them like anyone else. You can disapprove of what they do but you can’t and are not allowed to judge them they sense it right away and all you have done is push them away.

It could be from all my posts on this subject on this and another thread you might have missed something that I wrote a few times about acting in a respectful manner to OTD’s.

Here’s just one example I wrote in one before my last post:

“And as I said before, not respecting sinful choices of OTD’s does not mean we can act in a disrespectful or demeaning fashion with them. We need to act respectfuly and not reverently as some are wont to do, as we do with every Jew”

I definitely agree with you that chinuch cannot be applied in the same manner as we did even only 50 years ago.

Perhaps that is the problem, as you say, the parents are the same. Today’s generation requires a different approach.

I do believe though that most parents approach chinuch differently than their parents.

However there is still a lot to be desired. I don’t agree with doing the correct things as parents, only because the kids shouldn’t go OTD. Although the goal is that kids should live a life Bderech Hachaim as adults, it is definitely of paramount importance, but we cannot go through life doing things, being scared of disiplining them or whatever choices we make, just so they should’nt go OTD.

What I find totaly missing today is that parents DON’T TALK ABOUT HASHEM! Yes, we say burach Hashem and that’s where it stays. But a lot of parents never talk about Hashem with their kids, or what a gift Yiddishkiet is.

MOST parents do NOT KNOW their kids and do not understand them.

A lot of parents don’t have time for them between their jobs and, dare I say it, a bunch of kids, they have no kesher to, because not everyone has the emotional kochos to have a kesher with 10 kids.

I do think that most parents are not controling, are nice, albeit frustrated by the pressures of life in the 21 century, but they do want to do and be the best parents they could.

Aura, I’m FFB and because I come from a dysfunctional family, I was “discriminated” against when it came to shidduchim.

I don’t think discrimination is the right word. I understand those who didn’t want me based on my family.

My kids are freinds with my baalie teshuva neighbors and these kids are in the same school as my kids. Would I let my kids play with just any kids from baalie teshuvas? No. But neither would I let my kids play with just any FFB kids either if I feel they have bad hashkafos.

In some communities baalie teshuvas have a hard time getting their kids into frum mosdos. But so do FFB, too. In some communities it seems as if the mosdos do a more thorough background check on you than the FBI does on terrorists. BT’s might not be so well known or integrated and can have additional problems getting their kids into mosdos because of that.

EDITED

oomis, we are not breathing fiery kanuas, however as Yanky R. said we cannot sugarcoat the truth.

We don’t need to put on a angry demeanor when interacting with OTD, they do need to feel loved, but they also need to know that they CANNOT be respected until they have EARNED respect.

Would anyone respect a frum person who is rude to others? Well why not, they can’t control themselves. Who said only OTD can’t control themselves? Doesn’t anybody think that frum people don’t have challenges as well? So let’s respect those frum people who abuse others, or behave in any other form of indecent behavour and we should be excused as well. In fact all of humanity should be excused for any sinful behavour.

After all, we are all genetically predisposed to certain things, we have all been influenced by out surroundings. I don’t think it’s fair that only the OTD’s get that privilege.

Let’s give this privilege of excuses to all of humanity as well.

As the liberals do.