philosopher

sofdvar, I highly doubt any Rov will tell you that you can only go out twice a month. I think your Rov will tell you that you shouldn’t go out more than you need to.

Nobody is objecting to the fact that kol kovida bas melech pnima. Everyone understands women and girls should not hang out on the streets, in the malls or anywhere for that matter, just for the sake of hanging out.

However to posken halacha from the sources that Kasha brought down, while it’s indeed impressive, does not mean that in actuality we women can only go out twice a month. We have already been through a similiar argument in the Feminism thread where I don’t remember who wrote that the Rambam poskened that a man has the right to divorce his wife if she refuses to wash his feet. We have argued to what extent minhugim and das Yehudi has an effect on interpreting halacha. The bottom line is that most husbands would first of all not ask their wife to wash their feet and one who would and the wife would refuse and the husband would seek a get because of that reason, the Rov or bes din I think would seriously question his sanity.

Let’s understand something. The Torah was given to humans be they men or women. There is nothing in the Torah or halachas that if they pertain to someone they cannot keep anywhere or anytime.

Let’s discuss REALITY and halacha is ALWAYS APPLICABLE IN EVERY SITUATION AND GENERATION.

For starters should girls over bas mitzva not go to school? Attending school makes them go out AT LEAST five times a week!

If a father can’t take his child to the doctor because he’s working, the mother is not allowed to if she’ll overstep her two times a month out of the house allowance?

Girls who graduated school and women until they have kids would have to sit home doing nothing.

Walking to air out or for excersize, getting together at a resturaunt with freinds or even going out with one’s husband should be abolished?

Not every man can go grocery shopping that would entail the woman of the house to go out AT LEAST 4 times a week.

What about buying shoes and clothing for kids. Evreyone who has kids knows that this is not a one time ordeal. You need to buy and exchange for size, return what didn’t fit well, etc., boys stuff from one store, girls from another,skirts from one place matching tops from another, etc., etc., etc.

There’s no denying that’s it’s VITAL in today’s generation for girls to play outside with their freinds, go to their freinds houses to socialize, (in the Rambam’s time I doubt they had such social scenes which today is vital)go to school for extra ciricular activities such as plays, and other such VITAL mental health (yes it’s mental health for the girls)needs.

Halacha is poskened by Rabbonim and not by bringing down short excerpts and posting them on the internet.

In the times of the Bais Hamikdosh girls would GO OUT and DANCE in the vineyards and there would be shidduchim made there. Would we have such a social scene today? Absolutely not. We need to remember that minhugim play a huge role in the day to day life of Jews.

The bottom line is that girls or woman should not hang out day and night in the street, but coming, going, socializing in front of their own houses (if applicable – in the city in front of aparment buildings it might not be the correct thing to do)

Nobody’s going against halacha if we go out according to our needs. We women can still act btznius even though our needs our different.

Let’s be realistic. Someone who forbids to let their wife and daughters go out not more than twice a month would be considered abusive two say the least. At to that that such a man would probably be considered mushega.

Kol kevuda bas melech penima means that girls and women do not stam hang out, look for attention from men and boys, and are aidel and refined. It also means they respect and understand the fact that they should not congregate on the street or in front of a yeshiva or bais midrash and not walk in a loud or wild manner.

Kol kevoda bas melech penima means that not a women’s dress, not her job (other than being a mother) and not her physical guf is her kovod. Only what is hidden, her soul and her tznius, and the ruchnius that she permeates in the penimious of her house, that is her kovod.

I cannot imagine not letting my daughters visit their friends or chasing my girls in when they’ll be teens because they can’t socialize in front of our house.

Emphasis should be placed on not laughing loudly or acting untznius and wild. But we have to let them live!

If girls are indeed congregating in places that are near yeshivas batei medrashim and the like, for hours and/or loudly then there is indeed a problem here.

The reason there are tons of girls on the street is that b”H there are tons of frum girls! They are going and coming and socializing. There’s nothing wrong with that unless they are being very loud and raucous.

yb613 (yeshiva bochur?)I gather you’re not a girl, so if it bothers you try to stay off the streets.

Some people who think of themselves as optimists should look over their posts to see if what they write is consistent with how they think of themselves regarding seeing only the good in others.

If they feel that they are judging things that need to be discussed so they can be corrected which is the point of airing out thoughts in the CR, then they can’t jump on others with snide remarks when the others are judging situations and they don’t agree with their opinions.

One can counter opinions and disagree, that’s the point of a good argument so all angles can be explored, but one cannot attack the others right to judge.

Moderator-80, thank you, thank you. I don’t understand why I’m being judged for something which should be self understood for every frum Yid.

gavra, I have cotton gloves that I put polish on and then smear the polish on the silver.

Which gloves are you refering to?

Wolf, at least your wife is spared from polishing silver. It’s one of my least favorite household tasks. (Actually which household chore do I like to do?)

The point is not to look down on others. I sense that you are condescending to those who arent up to your frumkeit standards. We cant judge others

WIY, isn’t that statement a little hypocritical from someone who wrote:

I find that as long as daddy is in Kollel he is all holy and the house is Torahdig but then once he leaves he drops in Ruchnius like a stone in water. What do you think that does to the family? They all drop with him. A non Kollel family doesnt have this phenomenon.

And someone who opened a thread regarding those who do not wear hats or jackets during minchah?

Fine, you don’t judge those who sin openly and consistently, but at least don’t be consistent and don’t judge ANYBODY, including me.

We have to know what they do is wrong and educate our kids properly, but if we tell our kids, dont dress like that Jewish girl, shez a prutzah she dresses like a shiksa you have done more bad than good.

Now what makes you think I ever said don’t dress like a particular girl, she’s pritzuh? Actually b”H I personally don’t live near pritzusdige women, none of my neighbors are pritzus, b”H for that, so I never said anything of the sort. Would I live in a neighborhood where pritzus in the norm I would tell my kids that we are very proud to adhere to halacha, we are not cheap, we respect ourselves and therefore we cover oursleves according to halacha. And even if there are frum people who don’t follow halacha that doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.

Now if you don’t agree with my chinuch methods, I can’t help you, but I certainly will not come to you for chinuch advice.

You have no right to look down on another yid, or to hate them in your heart for their lower level of frumkeit.

As I repeat like a broken record, I look down on people’s openly, deliberately, and continously flouting of halachah. I never hate ANY human being, whether they are a non-Jew and especially if they are a Jew if they have not deliberately hurt anyone.

WIY, isn’t that being a little too judgemental on all kollel yungerleit?

Oh and before I sign off and go clean up the kitchen I want to apologize again to Mod-80 for thinking he wrote about “the deep theory end of the continuum of science”. I thought you wrote that because I had no idea what I wrote. I was probably in a rush then and when I came back I was like, hey I never wrote this, I have no idea what this means and I thought you put it in to clarify what I meant.

So I went back to your post about the contuinuum in science (I’m not really sure how you use that word) and there was nothing about “the deep end of the continuum of science”.

I must have come to a wrong scientific conclusion.

🙂

Can we arrive at definite scientific conclusions?

I think only in the areas that we can physically reach today can we reach to scientific facts. Wherever we can get to whether it is in the deep depths of the ocean or in outer space by rocket and sattelite can we come to some understanding of real scientific facts based on our current capabilities.

So whether it is proving scientifically what was earlier in time like the theory of evolution or what is in deep space where it is beyond our capabilities to reach by rocket or sattelite, or what will be in the future like predicting global warming is based in theory and the scientific community needs to come clean and admit that their so called facts are theories. They have no right to tout theories as facts.

What does judging mean?

Nobody’s saying that you can judge others by judging anything personal about a person who doesn’t dress b’tznius or otherwise. Nobody’s making judgements such as does her family dress that way or is it only her, why does she think she has the chutzpah dress that way, etc…

One is allowed to make judgements of others as to how it would effect them. Can my kids play with the kids of someone who does abc or will it have a negative effect, etc.

One can also say constuctive critism, provided that it’s valid.

Nobody was writing against snobby billionaires and their airplanes.

But okay artchill, you don’t want any discussions about mansions and excessive spending. So tell me, how was your day today?

I meant to write such a life is not a chiuv for those who can’t…

Wolf, just checking up if everything’s ok . You seem to be in a very self critical mood today.

Okay, thanks Mod, I don’t remember writing deep theory end so thanks for that. I think that sums it up very well : deep THEORY end of the continuum of science.

ZachKessin, I think we are arguing about something we basically agree on with little differences. I wrote:

I am not denying, if we peel away the scientific theories that scientists have, and look at the facts that are known today to us humans that there is indeed a lot of knowledge out there.

What knowledge is based on facts and I agree with you that we know more today than we did years ago and in and the future we will expand on that knowledge.

Let me explain what I meant with the following paragraph:

However, I am assuming you agree with me that in 200 years hence there will be a lot of new information that will make the facts and theories and knowledge of our generation look like we were in the infant stage at best and foolish at worst.

Just as in past generations people believed in foolish ideas for example idolatry and they backed it up with “scientific proofs” of their day and today we know that the sun is not a god or stone cannot be a god so too eventually the “scientific facts” and theories of this generation, for example the THEORY of evolution which is accepted as a fact in a lot of academic institutions and by scientits worldwide will be looked upon as foolish. I believe global warming will belong in the same foolish category.

On the other hand, our knowledge of REAL SCIENTIFIC FACTS is just in the infant stage.

I think we basically differ on the computor model issue. I do not believe computor models can give us facts when they are built on theories.

As Moderator-80 wrote frequently there are widely differing and even opposite results depending on the assumptions made.

A computor model cannot produce a realistic answer based on assumptions. It can only produce a realistic answer when the information provided for the model is factual, but I don’t know if scientists ever use computor models if they have ALL the relevent facts.

Thanks again for the clear answer you posted yesterday on the topic of Dark Matter, Dark Energy and black holes. I really enjoyed reading that.

ZachKessin, I am not denying, if we peel away the scientific theories that scientists have, and look at the facts that are known today to us humans that there is indeed a lot of knowledge out there.

However, I am assuming you agree with me that in 200 years hence there will be a lot of new information that will make the facts and theories and knowledge of our generation look like we were in the infant stage at best and foolish at worst.

The knowledge that we know today is not even a drop in the bucket to the true reality out there.

Maybe in fifty years I will ask you if you know the definite answer to what dark matter and dark energy is. Maybe by then numerous facts will have been disproven so why would I bother to learn intensively about this subject? Especially since I would have to use math which is a subject I prefer to stay away from with a ten foot pole.

Moshiach will hopefully be here sooner than that and then we won’t have to wait that long for scientific answers and the truth will be revealed to us.

charliehall, there ARE scientists who do not agree that there is a long term climate change. The climate changes all the time. I highly doubt the our plannet’s climate is the same as it was at the begining of creation.

Solar energy is currently not economically competitive with oil, gas, coal, or nuclear without massive government subsidies

The gov. has expensive safety and environment requirements for new buildings and houses. There is no reason that the government can’t require solar panels that are already on the market the as one of the new requirements for new buildings and houses. The cost of these panels are a few thousand dollars, as much as a new bathroom.

Also in the auto industry, just as the government has safety and environment requirements they also need to have requirements that new cars, say in 15 years, need to be powered at least %40 by solar energy and the milage per gallon of gas needs to increase. I think that’s a very viable option.

But I don’t think it will happen because of all the lobbying that will result would the gov. put forth such a plan.

Is it 3500 – 4000 PER child for someone with 6 tuition aged children? What part of the US do you live? (I assume you are in the US.)

Missme your assumption that I can get an pay lower schar limud based on the number of children I have in mosdos isn’t correct.

First of all, assuming I have six kids, one of them is still a baby. Second of all, if I would only have boys it is very likely that one would already be in yeshiva or going into Yeshiva so that makes it four in one cheder. But it is highly likely that I would have daughters as well so that makes it less children in cheder as my daughters attend school. Therefore I wouldn’t qualify for a discount, unless all I only had daughters which isn’t the case.

Most people do pay between $3,500 and upwards in Chassidishe mosdos. I would assume Satmar in Brooklyn is the only mosdos that charges less.

I don’t understand why the government cannot do something constuctive and make the industries incorporate SOLAR ENERGY!

Solar energy leaves no carbon footprints!

Kasha, right on!

WIY, maybe you are not judging those who are sinning but you are certainly judging those who are concerned about chillul Hashem!

Don’t you think we should not be focused only on not upsetting people and start thinking about not upsetting the Aibishter? How do you think Hashem “feels” (no He doesn’t feel) when He sees His daughters in skimpy clothing, their knees and thighs getting uncovered with every slight movement, tight clothing hugging their bodies, looking like the cheap nochrim?

Do you think He has nachas from that?

I don’t remember where I heard this but if one is not sure whether their action is a mitzvah or aveirah they should look at the outcome of their action.

If there will be no change because people will feel judged that they are judging not tzniusdige women and won’t take action because of that then how do you think the next generation of Yiddishe girls will look like if their mothers don’t impart this very vital mitzvah of tznius?

Tznius is the FOUNDATION of a holy nation.

Is it 3500 – 4000 PER child for someone with 6 tuition aged children?

Approximately that amount of kids b”H. Figure one more or one less. (I’m trying to stay anonymous, LOL.)

What is “MOFES”?

MOFES is the unMOFES that will put America in der erd, but it’s still a mofes for those who get it till Americas gets there.

MOFES is medicaid, food stamps and section eight.

In chasidish schools standard tuition is often about 2000 per child.

Not where I live.

Where I live the average is $3,500 to $4,000 per child.