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Oh and I forgot, sephardic.chabadnick, chazak veyameitz!
sephardic.chadnick, I see you are made of tough stuff, a strong character that can overcome life’s diffulculties. Some of us seem to have more tests thrown our way.
First of all, I would like to suggest to you, don’t get bitter. I really understand what you are trying to say, I myself went through political favoritism, even though I am frum from birth. However, DO NOT GIVE UP! You will make it in the end. If Rabbis are with you regarding your daughter’s conversion, then push her into yeshivah. Push and push and you will get there.
But first of all, to work it the right way, why don’t you sit down with the principal of the yeshiva and ask him why they are doing it to you, why they are playing favoritism. You might find out something that may help your child get accepted.
You are an honest and strong person. Realize that even frum people need to grow in that area. So don’t come on too strongly. Give out your opinions in places such as the CR or other places that you can vent and let people hear the truth. If you tell it to their faces, they’ll reject you, unless you tell it to people that understand. Most people don’t.
gavra, I totally agree with your assesment. But my theory regarding having no yiras shomayim in certain areas is because there seems to be blockages that people have towards their sin of choice that escapes their fear of heaven which they do have otherwise. I have seen women/girls daven with great concentration, having that personal connection to the Aibishter, while their knees are uncovered.
These women/girls are yirah shomayim. They will fear other sin like loshen hora, but because of peer pressure or other reasons, they do not have a fear of Hashem when it comes to tznius.
We all as humans have failures, we struggle with our yetzer hora, but usually if we fear Hashem we can say next time we won’t get in kaas, next time we won’t speak loshen hora, but there is an awareness of sin.
Lgabeh tznius, which is not a character habit that one chaps afterward, rather conscious desicions which cloths to buy, some people who do have yiras shomayim simply will not think about whether they are doing wrong tznius-wise even though it’s pretty obvious, for example they wear very tight-fitted clothes.
Gavra, my apologies. I was partly refering to yiras chet and I should have mentioned that my “vort” about yirah/yiras shomayim was my own. I usually do say that, but here and there I forget to indicate as such.
Yiras shomayim of Hashem is the only yiras shomayim that exists.
You may be refering to Yiras Chet.
There is no yiras chet without yiras shomayim. The two are entertwined. How can you fear sinning without fearing Hashem? Or how can you fear Hashem without fearing to disobey His laws?
Sometimes, a woman who is not betznius has a total lack of yiras shomayim and consequently a total lack of yiras chet.
But yes, in certain areas, one can fear Hashem and yet for various reasons will not fear sinning in a particular area, so I guess that would be reffered to as a lack yiras chet. But I would think that a lack of yiras chet, even in one area, is a lack of yiras shomayim in that particular area, because refusal to acknowledge the severity, or excusing oneself with various excuses, show that one does not fear Hashem when it comes to a particular area where one sins continuously and openly. We are not talking about mistakes, beshogeg, but rather openly violating halachas. It may very well indicate a lack of yiras shomayim and consequently yiras chet in one particular area, I would think.
Now, here’s another point of view.
Men have no business staring at other women. It’s true that I don’t have a man’s yetzer hora and I don’t understand what that entails.
But is it fair to your wife, beside of to yourself, when there are men that keep on staring and looking at women? Or talking to them in a certain way, I don’t have to elaborate. I have nebach seen wives, all dressed up and glamorous, they their dress and manner say “look at me, look at me”, because their husbands don’t look, they are busy staring at others.
These wives feel like something is missing and try to dress in a way that gets them attention because they feel it’s missing.
I’m not excusing those women’s behavour, but husbands should make sure their wives feel loved and appreciated and beautiful. And they should also say we don’t want you on the streets dressed untzniusdig. And the bottom line is that men who stare at other women should refrain from doing so. It makes their wives feel insecure.
But it was said earlier that I wouldn’t wear one even if I liked the look.
That’s precisely why one and all would think you became Chassidish if you put on a shtreimel.
Of course. Are you saying that the problems we see with non compliance with Halachic Tznius are due to a lack in Yiras Shomayim?
Yes, there is definitely a lack of Yiras Shomayim in the areas of tznius, but mainly it is lack of acknowledgment of the vital importance of tznius and the terrible consequences when we are not betznius. By terrible consequences, I don’t davka mean that Hasehm will cause us tzaros, although that may as well be. Rather I mean the steady and unconscious weakening and corruption of our kedusha which effects ourselves and our children.
Lack of yiras shomayim in the area of tznius does not necassarily mean that one is lacking yiras shomayim of Hashem in other areas, for example, loshen hora. There are very tzniusdige dressed women who have no yiras shomayim in other areas. One can be a yirah shomayim in one area and not the other. Therefore we need to have YIRAS shomayim, not just YIRAH shomayim. However lacking yirah shomayim in the area of tznius can eventually cause a total lack of yiras shomayim in all areas, sometimes not for the untzniusdige woman herself, but for the next generation. Certainly there is a downgrading of the entire community in yiras shomayim when frum women are not dressed or don’t act btznius.
ir, you and I believe that what our Gedolim poskened regarding tznius is halacha, but some in the CR don’t see them as their Gedolim. They say their Rabbis poskened differently and everything else is chumros.(No not gavra, whom I answered looks at these halachos as chumras.)
If you look at it that way, then these chumros are essential to our continued adherence to the halachas of tznius.
ir, Torah (learning AND living) and tznius is what helps us in our struggles against the y”h, so consequently this is part of what helped us adhere to Torah living. But it’s a cycle. Learning for the sake of learning about our traditions without doing the mitzvohs of keeping Shabbos, bris milah, eating kosher, etc. will not get us too far. Therefore chumros help us to ADHERE to halacha and to practice and live with halacha.
Remember, part of what the Chashmonuim fought the Greeks was because of Shabbos and bris milah too.
Chumros is not the right word, it’s true. But I am talking here to people who see it as such, much like I see some very frum people practicing what I feel is chumros that the Torah doesn’t demand of us.
But the truth is, whatever keeps us from violating halacha is part of halacha and they are not chumros.
mbuchar, most people would assume, when they see a person wearing a shtreimel, that he is Chassidish.
I am not sure if anyone really cares
sephardic.chabadnick, I care.
I feel for you and I see you’re in pain.
Maybe someone can tell me: Is Hashem trying to tell me something?
Avrohom Avinu was tested with ten nisyonos. Dovid Hamelech went through a life full of hardships. Hashem tests the people He feels have the stregnth to withstand His tests which make them stronger and greater people.
Do I just not belong with my own people?
If you are Jewish, then you belong with the Jewish people, even if they are causing you pain.
I actually wanted to start a thread on that issue, but I felt that I will be misunderstood and considered judgemental so I didn’t. sephardic.chabadnik tell me if you feel my assesment regarding this situation was made in error, or if you feel I am right, please let me know.
I feel that there is an entire mass movement of making BT’s. People who are Jews are being shown the beauty of Yiddishkeit. These people get attracted to the truth and start living that way of life. Once they do that they are left to their own devices, the support and encouragement gets forgotton. Instead of being there for the BT’s who made tremendous sacrifices to live a Torah life and could use all the encouragement and support at least these BT’s(who are btw, on a higher level than tzaddikim) are forgotton and instead the focus is on the new batch of mass produced baal teshuvas.
But more important than support and encouragement they need a freind. Whoever guided baalei teshuvas into their becoming frum, need to be their as they enter the new world and when they are living a Torah lifestyle and be there for them as a friend.
We don’t need to worry about what will happen with the rest of klal Yisroel that is drifting away (okay I’m gettin ready to dodge bullets here from other posters). That is BEYOND our control. What is in our control is those whom we bring closer to Yiddishkeit, we need to be there for them. We need to be their freinds and help them with their needs. They are not only neshomos that you’ve helped becoming Jewish and finsihed, your done. They are people with feelings and with struggles, especially with their new life and identity. They need you long after you’ve introduced them to Yiddishkeit. They need you as a freind for life.
sephard.chabad., tell me if I’m with my assesment of this situation is correct and if you think this is the problem in your situation as well.
sephardic.chabadnik, one thing though I do understand the community you are in. The fact is, although it might be painful to face, your daughter is as of now not a Jew and therefore she can’t be accepted into yeshiva. About children of full fledged goyim being accepted, it is most probably due to the fact that only the fathers are non-Jews. If the mother of the child is a Jew, then the child is too, regardless if the father is not.
Aboslutely do not throw in the towel! You are already here! You are close to Hashem, the God of your father and forfathers, stretching all the way to Avrohom Avinu! Do not give up! Challenges eventually pass. It is hard. It might take a long time, but you will eventually be at peace with the right decisions you make.
Remember Hashem is with you ALL THE TIME. Cry to Him, talk to Him. You are in a postition to be very close to Hashem because you are being moser nefesh for the truth and the ultimate Truth is Hakodesh Baruch Hu.
May Hashem give you the strength and courage to continue and may He grant you peace and serenity every day of your life.
sephardic.chabadnick, you will see, if you make the right choices, you will not regret it.
Wolf, if you put on a shtreimel I would assume you converted to Chassidishism as opposed to putting it on because you like the look.
…if I see someone wearing a streimel iwould assume the person is chassidish (not exactly a chassid though)
I think most people would.
gavra, I forgot to mention that Satmar, although they have very strict tznius guidelines, have a pretty diverse oilem.
There are women who wear only shaitlech and there are women who wear shaitlech with hats and there are women who wear shpitzlach (headscarf). There are fashionably dressed women (I’m not talking about pritzus) and women who think it’s an aviera to dress fashionably. There are people whom you can call baal habatish (men included) in lifestyle and dress, there are simple people and peopel in between. Bekitzur, while it’s true that Satmar has a stricter tznius code, there are all kinds of people in that group. I can say the only thing the majority of Satmare all over the world share equally is their anti-Tzioni shitta.
Btw, Ittisa, if you don’t want to know what flouncy means I won’t enlighten you. 🙂
P.S. In my previous post, the second to last paragraph is unclear. I meant to write that the reason why these chumros are crucial to our observance of halacha is because the modes of dress and lifestyle continuously change and therefore the chumros that our Gedolim decree and minhugim that evolve in klal Yisroel, allow us to adhere to the letter of halacha in every generation, since Matan Torah.
thanks blinky.
wolf, I was totally not offeneded.
“How does an individual know if he is doing Hashem’s will and following the right derech?”
The ONLY answer to this question is to have a Rov.
gavra, True, but a Rov or a Rabbi, whatever you want to call it, can also be Conservative. Or a Neturei Karta. One needs to be clear that the derech mehalach they are following is truly for an oivad Hashem.
P.S. The Chassidish (really Hungarian/Satmer) Mehalech (in general, Clearheaded!) is more Machmir regarding Tznius. This is NOT halacha Pesuka, but none the less should be applauded (within reason).
Tell me about it. Although I’m not Satmer, I know a lot about them. I look up to those who wear a shpitzel and the like, but would I grow up in that community, I would have a problem as I don’t think I could wear one. They are very machmir about tznius. Good for them, but of course, we are not talking here about what some feel are extreme chumros, rather chumros that are very reasonable and accepted by all over the world by frum communities, Chassidish, Yehsivish or otherwise.
The reason why need these chumros are because as the modes of change dress, the application of halacha changes. These are not chumros to make life harder, rather they are minhugim we adopt, as our nation has adopted throughout the centuries, to adapt our current lifestyle so that we can live according to halacha.
I’m not saying one needs to continuously look to be machmir. But the derech one a Yid needs to be on is a derech a derech of true avodas Hashem. One needs to fit in their current lifestyle into the parameters of halacha, not halacha needs to fit into their current lifestyle.
All we have left to rely on is our Father in Heaven.
gavra, that is true. But when talking about yirah shomayim, it is completely up to us. As Chazal (I think it think the source for this posuk is Chazal) say everything is in the hands of shomayim with the exception of yiras shomayim.
squeak, you are right. I like your post.
And Wolf you are right too regarding tznius not being the same as busha.
Okay, tznius does not mean busha. Tznius means modest.
But busha can be a positive trait as well. Sorry I don’t rember the source but the Yidden as a nation are called beyshunim (provided we don’t bury that under layers of brazeness).
Wolf, there is busha and there is busha. Busha can mean shame. But in a different way, every woman inherently has a sense of busha that is actually a wonderfull trait Hashem has given women to help them instinctively understand that they need to be modest, not brazen.
Unfortunately, in this day and age that busha has gone out the window. The more brazen one is, especially regarding relationships with the other gender, is admired by the goyim. It’s true that we are not there yet, but the brazeness that some frum women possess, the way they display there bodies for all the world to see, there lack of shame, only leads the generations to fall lower.
When Jewish women, the foundation of her family cheapens herself, it drags the whole family and future generations down with her.
Conclusion: Women should dress in brown homespun gowns with turtlenecks, long sleeves, 70 denier minimum stockings and a snood.
No one, in any way shape or form, implied that that should be the case. Why are you deliberately miscontstruing what I said?
What is so hard to understand that tznius that the exact definition of tznius means modest? It doesn’t mean showy and it doesn’t mean ugly either.
Shiny metallic, for example shiny gold shoes ARE SHOWY(unless perhaps if one is colorblind).
A women who is betznius would NOT wear shiny gold or silver shoes. And you know what, there are beautiful, refined shoes that look better than cheapy looking shoes. For example, a toned down pewter or bronze shoe is absolutely beautiful (in my opinion, anyway). It is not shiny and showy, but in the right hue, is beautiful and refined.
…hence we have shivim panim l’Torah, all of them there to help fulfill Hashem’s intent, and none of them in 100% agreement.
Well the Conservatives’ also claim they are fulfilling Hashem’s intent. How does an individual know if he is doing Hashem’s will and following the right derech?
The answer is what is the end outcome of following a certain derech? It doesn’t davka mean that those who appear to be the most frummest cannot be the most krummest. For example the neturei karta appear very frum and yet they are in cohorts with our enemies regarding our enemies intention of ruling over E”Y at all costs and that can c”v be disasterous. However in their blindness, they convince themselves that they are doing Hashem’s will while they are not.
In all the cases, the end outcome is the key to knowing if one is on the correct path. Same is when following a derech that always repeats the mantra of “where does it say, where does it say, where does it say. “
There was a gate around har Sinai that symbolized that the Torah needs gedarim so that we will not violate the law. But there are “shittos” that feel there is no need for the gedarim. Minimum of what is required they will fulfill. So therefore we have trespassing of halacha.
oomis AND SJS, threfore, we have women that are only focused on where does it say that a woman has to do this or that. That’s why we can have women who see no wrong in bright clothing because if everyone will do it, it will be accepted, wearing shiny metallic shoes, if done by the whole oilim goilim can be accepted, etc.
But the ENTIRE DEFINITION OF WHAT TZNIUS IS, busha, hidden, basheiden is being trampled upon.
All in the name of “we don’t need chumros” because “we follow a different shittoh”.
And you know this how, exactly?
How would I know this? Like I know a lot of things. Open your eyes and you’ll see as well.
What circles of boys and girls have you moved about in freely? I have myself been in such circles, and my daughters go to singles weekends in such circles, and NOTHING bad ore ven remotely bad has EVER happened,
I’m sure you transmitted your values to your children and also you’ve had much siyatta dishmaya and everything worked out great.
…and it is kind of loshon hara for anyone to say differently with no basis, just because their own hashkafa does not hold by this. Yes, SOME mixed groups of kids MIGHT have a problem (they would under any cicrumstance), but modern Yeshivish kids know proper behavior and are very respectful of frum boundaries.
Not everything that you disagree with is l”h. I have not named any group, and the only “sin” I did was the first time around I did write the word “group”. And btw, if there were no problems within that group why did people assume I spoke about MO? People made the assumption on their own. But in any case, they were right I shouldn’t have written the word “group”.
There is plenty of heartbreak potential in all shidduchim, no matter how they are made
I didn’t say otherwise. I only wanted to point out that it’s not all fine and dandy your way either.
msseeker, I just read your previous post and it sounds exciting!
Moderator how can I get msseeker’s email?
YEs you can, and you should. People have the absolute right to know the HALACHIC (not minhag of some, not chumros of some)sources when someone is trying to tell them they are doing something the wrong way. Otherwise, the person who is giving them mussar should stay silent.
And what chumros are you reffering to? The basic definition of what tznius means? Tznius means basheden, it means having a sense of busha, it means hidden.
So exactly how does a long founcy wig fit in with the definition of tznuius? How does tight fitting clothing fit in with that definition?
There is nothing to explain if you cannot understand the basic concept of what tznius is all about. Once you understand that then we can talk about different halachos, shittos and minhugim that different and their sources.
BTW, not only does it NOT say in the Torah that a man cannot have more than one wife …
Exactly that is my point. Driving a car on Shabbos, having more than one wife, etc. these are all things that Rabbonim later enacted to keep klal Yisroel on track. So are the halachos regarding tzniusdige dressing that are current in our times enacted by Gedolim. Who are your Gedolim? That’s the bottom line. If I will quote you Rabbi Falk, whos halachas are accepted worlwide by frum communities you may say that I have a different shitta than him. So what’s the point in discussing sources? Let’s not do that.
Let’s go to the simple definition of what a tznua is.
A long, flouncy shaitel doesn’t attract negative attention?
Skin tight clothing doesn’t reveal the shape of the ,/em>
body?
Very bright colors doesn’t attract attention?
Very shiny mettalic accesories or shoes don’t attract attention?
If you answer in the negative here, then whom are you kidding?
Hashem allowed MANY things that we no longer do today because of the takanos of our Gedolim, who were invested with the halachic power to do so. But if we accept that the Torah is perfect as it came from Hashem, it does leave way to say that His intention was a little different from theirs, but they obviously saw a need to enact gedarim to preserve His intent.
Your contradicting yourself here. On one hand you are saying that “it does leave way to say that His intention was a little different from theirs” and on the other hand you are saying that “they obviously say a need to enact gedorim to preserve His intent”.
The question, philosopher, is are accomplishing something or just talking lashon hara? If all you are doing is arguing and ranting about what “they” (usually women) are doing, then it is lashon hara plain and simple.
First of all, nobody can know who gets influenced and what kind of hoshpoah somebody has. Just as TV and secular media can have an hoshpoah, so can talking and discussing frum issues. You don’t know. Second of all, one is allowed to discuss tznius/untznius just as one is allowed to discuss business ethics/cheating. If you feel otherwise then I question how you could’ve post your comment regarding ethics as that would’ve been loshen hora on the people who don’t practice business ethics. Furthermore, by your feeling of what halacha of loshen hora is, you shouldn’t have clicked on this thread as by clicking on this thread and knowing what the contents of this thread are then you are, by your standards, violating the laws of l”h.
I don’t know how you get people to dress more tzniusdik but judging from the language and the tones here, I don’t think anyone would be inspired to change their dress by reading things here.
You might not be. There are others with different opnions and feelings, thoughts and behavours, out there.
Again, it is amazing how often the CR ends up as a place to say how awful women are and how they are stopping Moshiach from coming. Amazing how you poor, unfortunate men have to put up with the likes of us
Interesting, I don’t remember ever seeing posts about how awful we women are (that would include me as a woman) and that we are stopping Moshiach from coming. I guess people read what they want to.
I use the screen name “Just Me” becaues I realized that that is the only person I can change. I do my thing and I try to live in a way that would give nachas to the Rebonon Shel Olam, my Tatte, and try to just ignore the bad that many other people do. I do what I can for kiruv (I’ve been involved with Project:Yes, Aish HaTorah and Partners in Torah) but in the end, I think being a good Jew and showing that you can be frum and not obnoxious is the only way.
I have been through that before. Somehow, if one doesn’t like what’s another is saying they label them obnoxious and judgemental.
Why did you write that you’re happy to see that someone (me)agrees with you regarding business ethics? Am I not being obnoxious to others when I agree with you?
I have a very big suspicion that those who hock against the idea of having tznius discussions, calling those who stand up for halacha obnoxious, judgemental, etc. would fall all over themseleves trying to get in a word in a thread about business ethics against those who do not practice it.
okay, aries, I hear you and I get your point. But I don’t think anyone in the CR goes to every thread you mentioned, and puts in their two cents in a judging type of way. Everyone is judgemental in their way, and soemtimes they make a good point even if it’s a negative point. I personally have agreed with some of the things you said even if it was judgemental.
This is a nice forum to discuss issues, (a big thank you for the moderators) and I think we can all learn from each other.
just me, first of all, you never know who reads these threads and if it effects anybody. And even if it doesn’t, regardless, we must do our part. Hashem doesn’t expect us to change anybody and neither should we think we can do that in the CR, but we are mechiov, if we see something wrong to talk about it. But that doesn’t mean we should excusively focus only on the negative aspects of klal Yisroel, we b”H have amazing communities, people who do chesed and good deeds.
I don’t think Hashem wants us to go into the streets and scream out our opinions. I think He wants us to discuss what is right and wrong in a suitable forum.
Aries, why do you assume it’s okay for you to have been posting all that you did about men and women (especially about women on vacation) and then you say that you doubt a Rav would give a heter for it?
Trying to be quiet here, and really this is my yetzer hora talking, so yeah, I know I gotta work on that.
BUT TALK ABOUT HYPOCRITICAL, MAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
oomis, where did you see in halacha that one is not allowed to go with a hot pink tank top, provided they are wearing (a skin tight, of course) t-shirt underneath?
We follow gedolim and we have gedorim so that we do not come to violate halacha. After that we were also blessed with seichel, common sense, if of course, it is used in the proper framework.
Now it doesn’t matter if one is wearing a shaitel or if a girl’s hair is styled in an extremely long and flouncy hairstyle, the fact is that it attracts negative attention and a woman who has the proper feelings for tznius automatically understands what is pritzusdig and what not. You cannot always say, I don’t know where it’s written…
Whatever causes a woman to be ostentatious and cause negative attention to herself is a violation of tznius.
That does not mean that women cannot be dressed in a beautiful manner. Refined does not mean nebby. We don’t need to be dressed in baggy clothes, just not tight. We don’t need to wear a shaitel that is totaly chopped, not washed and looks like a bathing cap made of hair (like the old wigs), rather a wig should be styled beautifuly, but refined and aidel . We don’t need to wear only black clothing, we can wear refined colors.
If one’s life is not clearly defined, rather we go by it doesn’t say this or it doesn’t say that, then it’s extremely similiar to the Reform, Conservative and all those who follow a mushy type of it-doesn’t-say-anywhere kind of Judaism. Where does it say in the Torah that a man is not allowed to have more than one wife? Where does it say that you’re not allowed to drive with a car? Gedolim paskened? Well, they don’t follow our Gedolim! They follow their golumim.
Our Gedolim clearly poskened what is right and wrong and we need to follow their guildelines.
As a business person, I would like to see some rants about men and business ethics.
just me, why don’t you open such a thread? This is a serious issue that needs to be addressed and discussed.
koachshticka, I totaly agree with your post, accept the last line, as common sense is not defineable.
Each of us have different common sense, so therefore we need to follow halacha.
Halacha does NOT forbid women from going out when they need to. Halahca DOES forbid tarivos and untznius action and dress.
It’s why I’ve been trying to limit my time on CR and you know some of these threads that should clearly be women only?
The person who opened this thread is clearly a male and he should have the option of airing out his complaint. I see nothing wrong with that and with women and men putting forth their point of views. Maybe the that person learnt something, maybe each of us learnt something from this thread. Which is as it should be. We don’t have to become staid unthinking dummies.
Do you know that in the Torah there are plenty of things that pertain to women only and men learn about that?
On this site no one knows who we are so there is not tarivas, and I think it is the proper venue to air out problems and opinions.
As we are all destined to end up in a box after 120 years, it behooves us to try to all be more tolerant and accepting of Jews whose hashkofos might differ from our own, than some of us seem to be.
Nobody should have a problem accepting different hashkofos, but we should not have to agree with opinions that are clearly against halacha.
I am perfectly comfortable that HKB”H is okay with it.
How does TV, which spews forth immorality and indecency down the toobs fit into what Hashem is asking from those who fear and love Him, that we be a HOLY nation?
Men in particular, even more than women, have stringent halachas on what they are allowed to gaze at and what not.
I’ll bet they’re all turning in their graves the way yiddishe techter are dressing based on their rulings.
They are not turning in their graves because it’s not their fault that women dress not tzniusdig because of their rulings.
If we play around with Hashem’s laws then its not Hashem’s fault either. Halacha is halacha.
Btw, Rabbi Falk has an excellent book regarding the halachas of wigs. Sorry, I can’t remember the title of the book.
Also does anybody know where I can get a relatively low priced (not more than $600), good quality European hair wig WITHOUT a skin part? I can’t find such a wig anywhere.
In short, I reject any and all ways that people try to put me “in the box” …
Wolf, I would never put you in the box because I wouldn’t know where to find a box large enough for an adult to fit in. 😉
gavra, where do you see my opinion contradicting yours?
Wolf, you don’t have to agree with me, but I think the frum world would classify you as MO because of the TV in your living room and other things about your lifestyle.
Again, you don’t need to agree with me or anyone else who would label you MO, but that’s how I see it.
If we want to break things down to small particles, we can do that with everyone, and everyone has a little bit from here or there. But the labes MO, Yeshivish, Chasidish etc. does loosely describe the persons hashkofos.
For example, I am Chassidish. Now if I’m going to analyze where my hashkofos fit into the Chassidishe world, I may end up only a bit Chassidish. For example, I drive and most Chassidishe women don’t drive. Does that make a bit Yeshivish? Although my husband is a Chassid of a Rebbe, me personally, I call myself a Chossid of the Aibishter. Basically, while Rebbes are surely tzaddikim, I’m not particularly enamored of anyone (my husband doesn’t like this to be sure, he thinks I should feel his Rebbe is … THE REBBE), but that’s what it is. While I like the Chassidishe way with men going to Rebbes and tishen for my husband and son, personally I would never care to go to a Rebbe’s tish, or be become a “heisa” (hot) Chassid of a Rebbe. Does my not being enamored of any Rebbe make me Litvish? I don’t think so! Everyone including myself, would still describe me as Chassidish. My first language is Yiddish, my husband wears a shtreimel, my son has longer peyos than the Yeshivishe do, etc.
We are ALL entirely different individualy, but still people in general, basically will fit into a specific category as well.
SJS, you missed the point of my point. Whether or not you feel the knee may be halachicaly uncovered, the minute part of the knee gets uncovered, the thigh gets revealed as well.
And that is because of simple human biology. The knee is appr. 2″ high and the the thigh is attached to the knee. If you don’t believe me do some research (just kidding) Therefore even if your Rabbi tells you that the knee is not part of the shuk, if the knee does get uncovered, the part of the thigh in the majority of cases gets uncovered as well.
Aderabe, if you don’t believe me, try on your straight skirts which reach your bottom part of your knee and sit in front of a mirror. Check out what gets revealed when you are sitting.
Even if the skirt is very flairy and won’t reveal part of your thigh in front of the mirror, when going up steps and sitting into a car it will definitely reveal part of your thigh, because as I’ve mentioned, the knee is only about 2″ high and unless you’re wearing a skirt made out of cardboard which will stay in one place, your thigh lower thigh WILL become uncovered.
oomis, what you are saying sounds all nice and dandy, but in the reality that we live in today it is not like that.
For every few nice couples that meet like this there is one that were either a couple before they got married (not saying in the end they did get married) OR AT LEAST violated the halacha in different ways, such as touching each other.
In addition, there is plenty of heartbreak with your approach as well.
Wolf, no need to apologize, but it was nice of you to do so anyway. Sometimes what we want to say comes out sounding more sarcastic than we intended it to. I didn’t take it as an insult.
But in any case, you are right and I do want to aplogize for my words “an entire group who call themselves Orthodox”. I’m sorry for that. Below is my revised paragraph. Please do not take it as an insult of an entire group and if you fell what I’m saying is not the truth, then we can discuss this. But this is what I see and know is happening.
I don’t want to talk against people who call themselves Orthodox, but what sometimes goes on in circles where boys and girls freely meet, I cannot begin to tell you. Nor do I have to. I’m sure you know yourself what goes on.
I am not indicating whom I was talking about. All I am saying is that in circles where girls and boys freely meet bad things happen.
I personally have nothing against MO’s in general. As I have mentioned in another thread, there is a Young Isreal shul in my area and the people who daven there and they are very nice and frum. I’m impressed by their sincerity, derech eretz, and freindliness. Sometimes I don’t understand why some frum people call themselves MO’s because there are so many variations of MO’s. At one end of the spectrum there are very frum people and at the other end of there are people who clearly violate halacha or Mesorah and purport their hashkafas to be the true ones.
And the fact is, that teens and young adults who meet informaly, VERY OFTEN do behave in a fashion and sometimes even worse fashion than kids from Chariedi families who are called kids at risk. In such settings it is very easy to violate halacha.
I think now many parents of girls almost wish their daughters could meet boys on their own.
That will cause a crisis in a different way.