philosopher

hereorthere, Some minhagim that are adopted by a large part of klal Yisroel are not shaalos to be asked. Taking an example of the afikomin as I’ve mentioned yesterday, let me expound on this. My husband will not ask a shaalah if he is doing the right thing here because this is how his father, gandfather, uncles, cousins, his Rebbe and his fellow Chassidim do it. This is a minhag.

Now minhagim are what large segments of frum Jews adopted depending where they live. This is transfered from from father to son and within a particular community. There are no shaalos to ask here.

Then there is Daas Yehadus, what is the accepted practice in klal Yisroel in each generation. My humble opinion is that this becomes minhagim.

Now some people on this thread judged minhagim and das Yehadus not to be within the parameters of halacha. That is not for us to decide. Only the Rabbonim can do that.

Halachic shaalos come up when one doesn’t know what the din or the minhug is. These shaalos can be like what do I do if I used a milchig fork for a hot fleishig dish or asking one’s Rov if they need to or what they should and how they should check for worms in fish.

I just powerwalked and met two Chassidishe women in turbans and SAS shoes powerwalking. Now these women who are bringing up large erliche families are being judged here, because they like me could’ve jumped on the treadmill and then sat outside in the backyard where nobody sees us. Instead we went for a powerwalk.

So that’s it? If some people in klal Yisroel does something that is in the eyes of others assur the other has a right to judge them?

missme, you wrote “well, if the Rabbonim insisted on them following things K’Halacha, there might be a revolution by those people. They might go completely off the derech. So the Rabbonim don’t crack down even on things that are really kneged halacha, so that they can convince these people to at least keep some of the important stuff. “

What you are essentially saying is that Rabbonim are not assuring things that should be assured because the people will rebel. I don’t understand how any person can say Rabbonim are not acting in a certain way where they don’t speak out against people doing the wrong thing because of the tzibbor’s reaction. Goodness!

Now when I explained to you that the Rabbonim are not afraid of a “revolution” because they have assured a lot of things for our generation, you still attack me as you wrote ” clearheaded… what’s your point in saying that numerous ossurim Rabbonim have made in our current times, that our parents were never restricted of?? are you chas vshalom thinking the Rabbonim Shlita (or zt”l) made things up??? c’v!! “

I have NOT EVEN REMOTELY implied that Rabbonim make this up! I have as explained above said that Rabbonim assur a lot of things these days and they are not afraid of a revolution. Is that what you think of our holy nation that we will rebel if we are told to do something?

Furthermore you are bashing me, a woman who sacrificed a lot to do right thing and GO AGAINST MY NATURE TO STAY HOME AND BE A STAY AT HOME MOM FOR MY BABY AND BE HOME WHEN MY KIDS COME HOME. I don’t understand how anyone could bash someone saying that being home is boring and despite that stays home because she feels its right. Do you thing I created my inborn nature, or do you think Hashem gave it to me?

I don’t undersatnd how one can bash someones stating the facts of life (me), klal Yisroel, Rabbonim, or debate reality because it doesn’t fit their beliefs. I don’t think that’s called debating honestly.

If you want to see how I debate in an honest fashion, go look in the Worms in Fish thread and see how after one post I was debating something that I wasn’t sure what halacha as it pertains to me (i.e. what my Rov holds- Rabbonim have different opinions on this issue)is. I called up my Rov and got my facts straight. And then when I made an opinion regarding this halacha and someone condradicted me and also suggested I ask my Rov why he poskened as he did. Despite feeling uncomfortable to bother him, but wanting to know the facts I called up my Rov again. Sure enough that other person was right and I conceded to that other poster by saying he’s right. Check it out. you can see exactly what I’ve written in the Worms in Fish thread.

That’s called debating in an honest fashion. You get your facts right and don’t attack the other person for having a diiferent shitta than you.

I wanted to finish off with air out, not air when I go to the mall. In any case, yes I will be judged for going to the mall by Hakodesh Burach Hu himself who sees and knows what a sacrifice it is for me be a stay at home mom.

If you want to make sure that every aspect of your life is observed according to “explicit” posukim and meforshim then go ahead. But you cannot critisize me for disagreeing with you.

EDITED

hereorthere you wrote” You are not doing anything “different” with it, then how it was meant to be used.”

Who said that I did? I said that it is applied differently today, not that it is applied differently than how it’s meant to be applied.

You said “Perhaps you could say, that details of which aspect of the Halacha are in effect, have changed, but nothing in the Halacha has changed, since it includes all its details. “

Fine, you could say that but that still doesn’t change the fact that halacha is not lived in the same way as generations ago simply because the lifestyles were different and they couldn’t be applied in the same way.

Notice that I don’t say halacha changes to our lifestyle I say halacha is lived differently.

“Women have to understand that the natural way is for men to rule over them. Women are not meant to be leaders or out in public more than necesary at all – see the Rambam on that. “

Yes sir. We’ll make sure to only go to the market when necessary, once or twice a month.

Otherwise we women are absolutely trampling on halacha – not.

hereorthere, our minhag is not to be makpid what time we eat the afikomin, although I’m so tired my chatzos, I definitely would like my husband to be makpid on eating the afikomin before chatzos, but he is still in middle of discussing yetzias Mitzrayim by chatzos, as per his minhug.

Your saying “This change was already IN the origional Halacha, because the Halacha states that a man may have ONLY as many wives as he can take care of to their satisfaction (not an exact quote but the basic halacha as I understand it).” I’m not saying that the change cannot already be in halacha. Maybe if halacha is learnt correctly there can be found all the changes of how we live halacha in the original halacha. But the metzias is that this halacha is lived differently today.

Kasha you write”Incorrect. It is possible the majority practices a certain halacha incorrectly”

Nu go ahead. Take any of my examples and explain how you live them differently, according to your ideal of how halacha is supposed to be practiced. Buy a slave, take two wives, force your wife to wash your feet, whatever. The main thing is that you are the one that is a faithful servant of Hashem.

EDITED

I have NOT argued against our meforshim. Give me one instance where I did. I have merely stated WHY either a Rov will not accept someone’s excuse for divorcing his wife because she doesn’t wash his feet, I have explained why even though according to the Torah having more than one wife is allowed frum Jews have adopted a more stringent practice, and whatever other example I’ve used throughout this thread is what IS the practive of klal Yisroel in these times whether you like it or not. Just because my argument clashes wiyh YOUR position doesn’t mean

a. that my position in this case is not correct and

b. that even more importantly, chas vesholom I am arguing against the meforshim. It is incorrect and unfair to say that I did. I never said the meforshim are wrong or even that I don’t agree with their opinions. I HAVE SAID that the practical application of halacha has changed throughout the ages and if you do not agree then you ARE arguing against the metzius.

In fact the only person I have argued against is you, not chas vesholom our holy Rabbis. It is because you think that your position IS the mefarshim’s that you THINK I’ve argued against them. However I do not agree that YOUR stand IS the meforshim’s stand. And because of HOW KLAL YISROEL PRACTICES HALACHA your stand CANNOT BE CORRECT. AS I HAVE BROUGHT DOWN INSTANCES THAT ARE HALACHA THE WAY THE MAJORITY OF KLAL YISROEL PRACTICES. If I am wrong in any instance of how halacha is practiced today that I’ve bought down throughout this thread, whether it is about the slaves or anything wlse, please let me know.

I do need to make one correction when stating that there are people who have a minhug to eat the afikomin after chatzus. I meant to write that there are people who are not makpid to eat a afikomin before chatzos even though it clashes with halacha. Now whether you like it or not, a large number of Chassidim including my husband’s rebbe are not makpid to eat the afikomin before chatzos. They expound on the Haggadah untill way after chatzos and only then eat the afikomin.

Now last but not least. Ruling over one’s wife can mean in minhagim as the wife adopts the husbands minhagim after marriage. It does not explictly say in the Torah that the husband rules over his wife in every aspect.

Kasha, you wrote “clearheaded: I quoted verbatim an explicit Mishna, without offering an interpretation. The interpretation was yours, not mine.” So what what is your point by bringing this Mishna? If your point was to prove that women are not eaual because they are under someone’s reshus, I proved you wrong.

In addition, you keep on stating that it is an explicit posuk in the Torah that a wife is ruled by her husband. It is not.

Maybe the meforshim expound on a certain posuk in the Torah. Which meforshim are you talking about?

Kasha, I’m getting tired of arguing with you so even though I might not answer your predicted confutation, I have not conceded deafeat.

kasha, you have a very simplistic and unhealthy view of the term that a woman is merely a chefetz.

1. a chefetz cannot refuse not to be bought. A woman may choose not to marry at all. Unlike a man, a woman has no chiuv to get married.

2. Were a woman an object to be aquired then she would not be able to refuse a person who wants to aquire her, like a slave could not refuse to who would buy him, or a chefetz demanding who it’s owner should be.

That is regarding whether a woman is an object.

There is a completely different factor of whether women are equal to men. Now of course those who believe that women are mere objects will surely not think that women are equal to men. However since women are NOT objects we can discuss equality. As I have already pointed out on a previous post, women are different but equal to men. How that is carried out in terms of how a husband treats a wife is depended on the makom.

Now halacha doesn’t change, however lets take an example of a slave. You have all the halachas in the Torah regarding a slave. Were a person to own a slave in modern times, even if he acts within the parameters of halacha, he will be considred a cruel person by everyone, including the Rabbis.

Therefore, while halacha doesn’t change minhag hamokom does and it would be cruel to treat a wife as women would be treated in Chazal’s or Rambam’s times.

cherrybim, the sun can revolve around the planet Earth as well as the earth revolving around the sun as in space it’s all relative. The heavenly bodies are revolving around each other. Some scientists talk about the subject matter of relativity.

In any case, is science conclusive as of today? Do scientists know everything there is to learn about the world? Definitely not! Experimenting and exploration is going on full force by tens of thousands of scientists in hundreds of feilds. We have not arrived at the sum total of all truths, which will iy’H be when Moshiach comes and our eyes will behold the truth.

Until then what we know today can become outdated because of new data tommorow. Now Moshiach should be here by then,but our generation who believes in science that we know today to be facts will be definitely be proven otherwise in 150 years hence and we will look like fools just as we look at the people who believed those “facts” of 150 years ago to be true.

Wolf, would you make the same argument about Moshe Rabbeinu being human and infallible as you do about Chazal?

Chazal were molachim, they were not mere mortals and whatever they taught was from a divine source.

While I generally agree with you wolf, I take exception this time with your line regarding our great Rabbis because thinking that their words do not apply to us has led numerous people down a slippery slope.

Now whatever Chazal have said about woman can apply. That does not make women inferior in intellect. Chazal just show that womens’ thinking is inferior in the situations that they spoke about. However that doesn’t mean womens intellect is inferior in all situations. In fact in other situations their intelligence might be superior. Women and men think differently, their thought patterns are different and women learning to be rabbas are not learning like men are learning in serious yeshivas.

That does not mean women have overall lower intelligence. Not at all. Women have a binah yesierah. It is a DIFFERENT KIND OF INTELLIGENCE THEN MEN. It’s as simple as that. Women learn differently and think differently, but we are not less intelligent.

Now were I a man who learns Torah, I would be able to bring numerous sources on the intelligence of women. And I am also certain I would find sources which state that womens’ intelligence is greater in certain situations then men.

I’m repeating what I said before, no gender as a whole is better or smarter than the other, just different, each with their maalos and chasronos.

I love Meyer Bendet’s books, but I have not seen them around for quite a while.

He wrote True Identity and the sequel Double Identity

The Orphan – two books

Our Man in Russia

The Accused – two books- this is definitely the BEST novel I have ever read!

There’s another great book that he wrote but I forgot the title

He is definitely the best frum author in my opinion.

Marcus Lehman’s books are also good.

Wolf please don’t take offense, but I do think babysitting as a profession belongs to a woman.

Just-a-guy, are you talking about babysitting as a father babysits his kids or babysitting as a profession? Those are two seperate things.

I do think a babysitting profession belongs to a woman. There are unbecoming manly jobs for men too and a man does not need to act in a woman’s role for parnossah. That’s doubly unbecoming.

Sorry, I meant to write Rabbis , firefighters, soldiers,etc. are manly jobs and women occupying such roles are not doing Hashem’s will for the gender He created them for.

It is indeed very telling that those who have disputed what I have written in my previous post, have skirted the issue regarding being assertive when the husband is veering from the right path or making bad decisions. I know what I’m talking about. I have seen cases where the woman has blindly followed the husband and it led to disaster and I have seen the fakerte instances too, where the wife stood up for what’s right and that led the husband too comply with doing the right thing (of course that must be done in the right way).

I cannot bring sources regarding the topic of submissivness as I am a woman who doesn’t delve in actual study of Torah (I’m not a feminist). However, I would venture to say that even while Rav Miller spoke about women being subverssive, where he to be asked whether a woman still is mchiuv to wash her husban’d feet, when she doesn’t wnat to, I highly doubt he would say that she must do that.

There is such a concept of the “fifte shilchun aruch” i.e. common sense. For example, if a woman has born a girl and boy and she doesn’t want to have more children because she is not michiav to do so al pi halacha and her husband too has fulfilled the mitzvah of having children. Will any Yeshivish/Chassidish Rov agree with her? Why does she need to seek a heter anyway if al pi halacha she is in the right? That’s where the fifte shichun aruch comes in. Maybe we can even call this daas Yehudi.

The same is with the issue of women being submissive. If today a man insists that his wife wash her feet and she doesn’t want to, I highly doubt where he to ask a Rov what to do with his insubordinated wife, the Rov would tell him to divorce her. It is much more likely the Rov will tell the husband to cut out the shtuss.

I think this thread is becoming rather pointless. What’s a difference who should listen and obey whom, sometimes the wife’s opinion is correct and sometimes the husband’s. If everyone understands their tafkid in life, be they a man or woman and there’s mutual respect and honesty in the marriage then it will be sholom v’shalvah.

One thing I can guarantee you, I nor any frum woman will wash their husbands feet.

May I be so bold as to suggest that’s it’s because young people feel they need to get “the perfect” shidduch and that doesn’t materialize because as humans everyone has their faults. And when you spend more time together the negative characteristics come up. What is a girl or boy supposed to look away from when they see their chosson/kallah has some anger management issues or not enough sensitivity or is conceited or any other of the myriad negative but human characteristics?

What could a person look away from?

Well, the easiest thing to do is call the whole engagement off.

mazal77 thanks for the chuckle.

smartcookie, you are indeed a smart cookie.

movingmountains, I asked the same question on another thread and got answered by Daas Yochid. I copied his translation onto this post.

Anovim lyrics: (not my translation)

At the hour that the king moshiach comes, stands on the roof of the beis hamikdosh (holy temple) and he announces to Israel and says:

Anovim anovim, (modest ones) the time of your redemption has come, and if you dont believe, see my light that shines

boredstiff, Anne Sez? I’ve never heard of them. Where are they located and do they have a website?

artchill, I’ll tell you another thing, besides for the prices, why I can’t shop at frum stores (I’m not degrading frum owned stores, they have their advantages for those who do shop there). I don’t know where you live, but where I live the frum women’s clothing stores basically carry the color BLACK. Black, black and black again. HELLO, I hate black.A black skirt and shoes is were it ends for me. I love color! Pretty purples, different shades of blue, pretty beiges, rich browns. I once asked a saleswoman why they basically carry the color black, she said anything else doesn’t sell well. This is the color that women buy. It’s not the frum stores fault that they barely carry clothing with color. They are only providing for their clients what they want.

Talbots, Macy’s and Lord and Taylor are expensive and that’s why I wait for the sales. And I signed up for e-mail coupons.

I don’t buy a lot of stuff, I don’t have the money for any extras but whatever I do buy I make sure it’s good quality with a nice fit and I find that to be only in the more expensive stores.

Here’s how you find cheaper stuff at talbots online.Go to talbots.com and click on sale. They keep on getting new stuff in every week or two. Checking under outlets is mostly a waste of time and is not cheaper. Also sign up for e-mails to be informed when their sales stuff goes on sale for further reductions.

Now you won’t find what your looking for every time you search, but if you enjoy browsing on line, then eventually you’ll find nice things. If you don’t enjoy browsing then it’s not for you.

You should not have a problem with their 25″ long skirts when you hem them down an inch if the skirt is not a straight skirt.

Lord&Talor and Macy’s also have fabulous sales. I just brought a $215 spring jacket for $64 at Lord and Taylor.

You can barely find tznius clothing in most non-Jewish stores after their spring collection sells out and they only have their summer collection in. With their spring, fall and winter collections you shouldn’t have a problem if you look in the right places.

The bottom line if you want good quality is – you need to wait for the sales, enjoy looking for bargains and only buy with coupons.

Thanks mischiefmaker for starting this thread.

It’s not only where you shop, but how you shop is equaly important. If you learn the art of shopping, you can get great quality clothes for a fraction of the cost.

For example, I saw a beautiful skirt that I wanted on Talbots.com. The skirt was $100. I waited and checked every other day if the skirt went on sale. Sure enough it went on sale and combined with a coupon, I snagged it for sixty dollars. Sometimes by the time the sale starts my size is sold out, however I still would not pay full price.

%40 off is only when I was davka looking out for an item, however I generally buy when stuff is at least %50 off and mostly %60 off.

Quality and good fit is very important. That’s why I generally shop at Macy’s, Lord and Taylor and Talbots. They carry good quality clothes, are mid priced and on sale you can get bargains.

Also for fit it’s important to remember that women and girls 5’4 and under should get dresses, tops and coats in petite. I buy skirts in Misses sizes as they are longer. When I need to legnthen a skirt or dress more than the hem allows, I add a matching 1&1/5 inch ribbon on the bottom.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that the most important ingredient in chinuch is siyatta dishmaya. First and foremost.

That’s true. Some tunes composed by by Jews sound more crazy and wild than the some composed by non-Jews.