philosopher

Kasha my last post wasn’t clear what my question to you was.

If you are saying that if dayanim are involved in the process of get then my common sense doesn’t apply. Haowever, that contradicts with what you are saying that people are getting a get for petty reasons.

So are there divorces for petty reasons they all have a valid get, or not?

Divorce is an absolute last last resort in all cases, to be avoided.

Kasha, this sentence is contradictory, as I think that is what you are relaying is.

In a gittin case, dayanim always need to be involved. “Your common sense” plays second fiddle to the “technicalities” of halacha.

Exactly. That is why there are so many divorces.

Tehcnicalities of halacha and in this case divorce, have nothing to do whether we apply them in a situation where one has used their common sense in effort to obtain it (the divorce).

Apparently the Rosh Yeshiva quoted by another poster earlier in this thread disagrees with you. The R”Y told the wife to stay married

With all due respect, I believe that that poster is not privy to all the details in that story.

I think no one really knows what’s going on in someone’s marriage even if one spouse realys information to their freind because

nobody says to their freinds the whole truth and nothing but the truth about these things, especially if they are the guilty party and don’t want to admit it.

Halacha is full of “technicalities.” Every technicality is relevant and binding

And where exactly did I say halacha is not binding?

Halacha dictates every moment of a Jew’s life, however as human beings Hashem gave us common sense too to know how to go anout our BASIC human reqirements without having to call our dayanim.

Maybe your common sense is different than mine. My common sense tells me that if someone hurts me deliberately on a constant basis, I stay as far away from that person as I stay from a shark.

However the development of love between spouses as a process of work, he has said many times, is a very important concept, though not the most important thing, which is developing a partnership to serve Hashem, ideally bolstered by a strong, true, and enduring love between the spouses.

Mod-80, that is the ideal marriage.

However, factually there all kinds of people out there that don’t live according to the ideal way.

Some men? ALL men.and I mean GOOD. Period

A large part of Chassidishe men weren’t educated by their mothers and still believe in “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”.

Depending on where one lives, there are a lot of dowdy Chassidishe women with happy husbands (not saying in all cases, but in general it’s like that).

You’re not married more than a year or two, are you?

smartcookie, how did you guess? I’m married for one year and two months. Oh, and I forgot, plus an additional 10 years as well, b”H.

You call that spoiled to want more out of life????

Wanting more out of life then Hashem gave you? Yes.

If Hashem commands us to experience joy from our shloshes regalim which come about only three times a year, kal v’chomer that He wants us to be joyful in marriage which is 24/7. Any Jew who believes itherwise, does not know the meaning of the joy of Torah, and will have a tough question to answer when after 120 years Hashem asks why he did not avail himself of the joy in this beautiful world that He created.

Nobody is saying that we shouldn’t try to make our marriages more joyful or loving, for that matter. But reality is that there are some who don’t know how to love a spouse in the way they should.

I take it that you are implying that divorce is actually a good thing because it makes a person free to be able to have a chance at a loving marriage and consequently serve Hashem with joy.

That’s a new twist. Hey, divorce is actually a good thing!

Oomis, I definitely don’t agree with you on this. Can one say that there’s riches in this world and since money gives me happiness (honestly it does, one of the most pleasurable things for me is going shopping for clothing and accessories- not grocery shopping!) and I must aquire it even if it means to ask for charity, otherwise Hashem will ask me why I’ve not partaken from the joyous things in life? Puleeez!

You make it sound like most couples run to the divorce lawyer at the first sign of trouble.

Wolf, where exactly did I insinuate that couples run to a divorce laywer at the first sign of trouble?

I merely said that there are a lot of ways that there love can be missing from marriages and I don’t think that it’s right to divorce because of it.

The vast majority of people, I believe, try very hard to save their marriages and come to a decision to divorce only after much soul-searching, contemplation and quite a few tears

I never said that people don’t try hard to save their marriage, however they try to save the marriage they way they think the marriage is supposed to be, not the way it was meant to be.

Not everybody is Wolf and Eeees. Your marriage is your marriage. Every two individuals make up a different kind of marriage. Hashem is the one that ultimately decides what kind of marriage each person has.

Now I have never installed cameras in every Jewish household to know whether the majority or minority of marriages are filled with love or not, but my gut tells me that part marriages are loving, part are kacha/kacha and part are missing thae love factor. Now if all the marriages that are missing the love factor disolve, it won’t be a pretty sight.

Whoever has a loving marriage realize it’s a bracha, but people are blessed in different ways.

I commend each and every person that is struggling to be happy and content in an unloving marriage and mark my words, you will see, iy”H you will still reap much reward. Chaziek veyameitz!

I know I may sound very callous when I give such advice for others, but I’ve made a lot of lifelong personal sacrifices (no not in the area of marriage) in my life and I’m very proud to have made very difficult but right decisions.

Happy, I’m not going to deny that there can be a ripple efect.

Okay so to make sure there’s only joy and happiness the world all over in marriage here’s what’s going to happen

A couple gets married and realizes there’s no love in the marriage

Divorce

A couple is married 20 years and the love cools off

Divorce

A spouse has an hormonal change and needs more halacha l’maasah love and the other spouse can’t provide

Divorce

Each spouse has a different definition of love and can’t provide for the other whatever love they need

Divorce

Each spouse started out with the same definition of love and then their needs changed, but it becomes to complicated with the spouses changes and nobody can give the other what they need

Divorce

I could go on and on. There will be very few intact marriages if we go with such kind of reasonong.

People change. Love changes.

The problem here is that people think LIFE HAS TO BE PERFECT. They fold under when something is hard to handle.

“you can’t imagine how difficult it can be for 1 spouse to feel no emotional connection and love from the other”

I never said it’s easy, but a lot of people have it much, much worse. What should those paralyzed, but their minds are intact say? What should the childless say? Who said life is easy? We need to focus on doing what is right!

We live in a very spoiled generation. Es kimt zich mir! There’s no appreciation for life, for every breath we take, for all the good that we DO have!

Actually, love is a very important element of marriage. However, the fact is that there are unfortunately people who do not know how do give love.

This has nothing to do with how long a person dates. I’ve seen this happening with Yeshivishe couples as well,where after they’re married one of them realizes that their spouse is simply incapable of giving them the amount or type of love they need and they didn’t realize that spouse would be like that until they got married. Or they both fell an emptiness in the marriage. Even with the longest engagement there are things things that are noticed AFTER marriage.

Now if the spouse that cannot give love, however that’s defined – I say it’s defined for each person differently-but let’s say for example, it’s emotional closeness and a spouse cannot give that, that’s no reason to run out and get a get.

Why not if that’s an ESSENTIAL part of a HEALTHY marriage? Because if that unloving spouse is basically a good, responsible person but doesn’t give what they’re expected to does not mean that that is grounds for divorce.

Do you know how many people did love each other when they got married and the love cooled down? So after 20 years of marriage they should divorce? And even after one year of marriage, that’s not a reason to divorce either. One should try to do hishtadlus and work on bonding to create love, it usually works but not always.

Unfortunately, this generation does not realize how serious a marriage is. As the Yiddish saying goes “vos es goyisht zich Yiddished zich” what is a goyishe concept becomes accepted as the norm by us Jews after awhile. Now there are long lasting marriages in the goyishe world but it’s becoming rarer and rarer to find young married couples that don’t divorce after a few years. The foundation of a strong society rests on strong family ideals of lasting marriages not short and loving marriages. America is becoming a weak, immoral society.

Jewish communities too, are strong if real and LASTING values are upheld, not emotional weakness, not broken families. Again with emotional or physical abuse, yes there definitely should be divorce, (and in other rare cases) otherwise the marriage should stay lasting!

Hereorthere, nobody never makes mistakes, only Hashem is perfect.

If there is a time that a wife needs to be knegdo then she should.

As a bookworm who is trying very hard to wean himself off of Goyishe novels, I find myself frustrated over and over again when trying to read a “frum” novel. The vast majority of the ones I’ve tried to read either

1. Have a unrealistic plot,

2. Are sloppy, i.e. plot holes and/or bad research,

3. amateurishly written or translated

ShragaF wants to read novels that are neither of the above. A lot of what was suggested to be read is at least one of the above.

ShragaR if you can get Mayer Bendet’s or Marcus Lehman’s books, I guarantee you they are very realistic, very good and original plots, and well written. In Marcus Lehman’s case, I guess the books printed a while ago are well translated as someone pointed out that the newer versions are edited.

I used to think that one of Mayer Bendet’s books-The Orphan, two volumes- is the only one that doesn’t have a realistic plot as it’s about a Nazi that married a Jewish woman. However, quite a few years later I read a real account of a Nazi that was engaged and almost got married to a Jewish woman after the Holocaust and in fact lived in Israel for awhile. That’s when I realized the plot was not that farfetched.

I started reading Every Man a Slave and don’t remember why I didn’t finish it. However I do remember being impressed at the style of the writing – it seems like a good book.

Exiles of Crodile Island by Henya Meyer was also a good, realistic and well researched book. I have not heard of her other book Fall of The Sun God that someone mentioned on this thread, but I think I want to read that next.

Even though Avner Gold’s books don’t have realistic plots (and I don’t think they are meant to be extremely realistic -they are rather historically informative in an entertaining way)I enjoyed reading them.

The Gedolim are also the ones who defined “ezer k’negdo” as meaning that sometimes in order to be an ezer, a wife must be neged her husband FOR HIS OWN GOOD.

oomis, great vort!

I just want to make it clear what I’ve written. With writing about less expectations of marriage in the Chassidishe world I don’t mean less than regular marital expectations of honesty, reliability,respect and compromise. Such a marriage culminates over the years into a different kind of love that very impatient young kids need instantly!

Actually, does the Torah not state that if the husband finds something unseemly in his wife he should give her a GET? And if she remarries, and her second husband hates her and divorces her, she cannot be re-married to the first husband. Check out Devarim Perek 24, Pesukim Aleph and Gimmel.

oomis, I feel this is important issue that necessitates an answer. Unseemly does not translate into unloved. One cannot live with a spouse that nausiates them, this is probably talking about unhygienic habits that a wife has. I mean you do have to live with a spouse after all. In any case, it doesn’t talk about love.

Hate also can be caused by a variety of reasons, notably a schlechta, mean, selfish wife. Nowhere does it say if one doesn’t love a wife, or vice versa for that matter, they can divorce.

Love in the way it’s thought of today as an instant soul connection between two people is elusive for most people. Can everybody be a billionaire? Is everyone drop dead gorgeous? The key to happiness in marriage AND in life is being satisfied with what we have, including our spouses.

SJS, I think these articles are purely based on speculation.

I just want to point out that women can be abusers too.

In addition, abusers don’t have to be mean, prone to anger or have outright bad middos.

Abuse can be very subtle and the effects in such cases can be even more devastating because the victim is confused, especially if the victim is a child.

Abusers can be charming, say that the abusive action that they are taking is simply because they love the victim and are doing whatever abuse they are (which of course the abuser will not see it as such) for the victim’s benefit. In such cases the victim becomes confused. On one hand, abusive actions hurt but on the other hand it is done in such a subtle and manipulative way that it leaves the victim onfused and they assume that they are blameworthy of the abusers disdain and sarcasm towards them or the guilty party who caused the abuser to become angry when they do blow up.

Nobody should EVER stay in such a marriage as it will have terrible lasting effects for generations. These abusers CANNOT CHANGE THEMSELVES. I know what I’m talking about. I grew up in an abusive home and I know these people are SICK. Anybody trying to control another human, be it their husband, wife or kids is SICK.

Not only was one of my parents an abuser, but one of my granparents was extremely abusive as well. I cannot tell you the devastating effect it had on each family member including the grandchildren. I thank Hashem for giving me my sanity for my life was insane and I have seen people in my situation become either abusers themselves or pathetic, broken individuals.

Despite knowing the pain of abuse and despite knowing that abuse exists in our communities, I still think that in today’s generation of instant gratification, except in cases where abuse was the issue, broken engagements and divorces could’ve been avoided in a lot of cases.

Kasha, amein!

My only answer is the influence of the goyim via what the world calls FEMINISM!

Health, while you didn’t define feminism you definitely implied that feminism is the cause for women routinely going shopping.

Feminism is the mixing up of the yoitzres of what male and female roles are.

Compulsive shopping is the result of an emptiness that the soul feels- a spiritual void that needs to be filled.

Any compulsion is a human’s way of coping with a spritiual void.

If I’m not mistaken, your comment from several hours ago discussing this authority was the first instance you acknowledged such in this thread

Yes, because I clearly wanted to build up my case on equality.

I think that my point is stronger that way, but you can disagree with me.

Nevertheless, and again, that would simply be a semantical issue of how to describe the relationship – not a disagreement as to the nature of the relationship.

Maybe your right on that point, however your opinion that the husband in my scenerio was in the right but should just have said what he said differently led me to believe otherwise.

That’s exactly what I’ve been saying! (First comment on this page: “ask the 2 shaalos that were suggested to you? I know you said you don’t think their necessary, but at the end of the day were all halachic Jews.”) Someone here [*cough*] expressed a reluctance though to even ask a shailah…

Kasha didn’t you realize that I threw what you told me back at you? Will you ask your Rov whether one can force a wife to wash their feet in today’s times?

I concede to you on the point that Chazal didn’t create halacha, they interperted it. Just as Rashi interperted the meaning of pesukim and “explicit” halachos in Chumash.

First I want to excuse myself for the repeated spelling and grammatical mistakes I make when posting as I generally don’t have the time to proofread what I’ve written.

If someone knows of a way that my computor can spellcheck for me what I write in a post I would appreciate if they let me know.

Kasha, here’s my view of who figuratively wears the pants in the house.

Fist of all, women in general are not inferior than men. Men are not inferior to women. They are both equal. A woman is not mechiuv to marry because she complete spiritually. A man is not complete in a spiritual sense until he gets married whereupon he can then be called a comlpete Man.

Can one take this concept and say women are superior then men? Absolutely not! A woman can be superior in a certain spiritual or physical sense just as she can be inferior in a different spiritual sense, such as noshim can’t posken shaalos. Every gender is equal, but different each with maalos and chasronos.

A wife is also not a slave that a master in the form of a husband, owns. She is not a chefetz, an object, but an equal partner to the husband to be treated with respect (and vice versa).

The ideal Yiddishe marriage is a partnership of three : the Aibishter, the husband and the wife.

However , although the genders are equal, they each have different roles to fulfill in marriage and in life in general.

I will not elaborate what each, the husband and the wife are mechiav to do for each other, rather I will focus on the aspect of who has the last word in the marriage.

1. According to halacha if a father and mother tell their child to do something the child first obeys what the father asked him to do and only then obeys the mother.

2. Halacha also dictates that a child cannot sit in a seat that is considered his father’s, however he may sit in his mothers seat

3. I’m not sure this is a halacha or a minhug, but I think it’s a minhug that in most heimishe communities the wife takes on the husband’s minhugim after marriage

There might be other halachos pertaining to this issue, but now I can only think of these.

One can see from the above halachos that the husband is the authority in the house.

That does not negate the fact that they are equal in terms of one not ruling the other in all aspects in the marriage or over one’s life, but rather in general, we go according to what the husband says.

For example, I took it for granted that my son will attend the cheder that my husband wanted. End of story for me here.

However when I felt my husband took a wrong approach chinuch wise to a certain behavior that my son needed to correct, I voiced my opnion. We had an argument (gasp) about that. In the end my husband conceded to my request to do it my way. B”H with siyatta dishmaya my opinion was the correct approach that helped my son with that particular issue.

So Kasha, yes, within the correct framework we need common sense to know where husband has the last word and where husband and wife need to compromise.

As I consistently and in my view, clearly argued that

1. Chazal have with divine inspiration created halachos that we need to follow in all generations and while never changing, the realities of life change and therefore the way it is applied in every generation changes

2. different minhugim adopted by different communities throughout the ages can have an effect on how halacha is applied as well.

Let me give you another example in addition to the ones I bought earlier in the thread. Rabbi Falk writes that in communities where it is the custom not to wear long robes, one shouldn’t put on a long robe as it becomes a beged of pritzus, as obviously, it attracts attention because it’s different than what other women in the community wear. Some Chassidishe communities even ossured long robes where they were previously worn.

Now before the early 1900’s women wore dresses sweeping, ankle length dresses. When women started wearing calf length dresses, it was considered a breach of modesty. Obviously, before shorter dresses (not short) became an accepted style, the tznius halachas were applied differently. For example (I have to spell everything out because people take my words out of context) it would obviously be against halacha to wear a shorter than the ankle length dress which was the accepted tzniusdige length at the time.

Did the halacha of the chiuv of women acting ,dressing and behaving modestly change? Absolutely not!

However since the lifestyle changed the way halachas of modesty and covering of ervah is applied.

Therefore, if a husband feels that they are within their rights to force their wife to do anything that is generally accepted as abuse within one’s community i.e. imposing on one’s wife rules when she may go out or forcing one’s wife to wash his feet against the wife’s will, should ask a shalah if they are acting within the parameters of halacha because at the end of the day we are halachic Jews.

You also need common sense.

Uuuuhhh huuuhhh…yeah.

Kasha, you wrote “Wolf, I was talking to clearheaded. She is making points no one is arguing with, i.e.:”

What exactly was your point in telling me to call my Rov?

The husband in my scenerio did speak with love, he only stressed the word must (a husband, in your view does rule his wife after all, we need to make that clear), otherwise he spoke very respectfully to his wife.

So you’re saying that if the wife wants to air out and feels that if she is deprived of that option and therefore her mental health would be affected (whose wouldn’t?) a mental health professional should be consulted?

“In any event, I’ve repeatedly responded to your same repetitive points sufficient times. Consider this response conclusive. “

Kasha, whose forcing you to response to my comments? I’m certainly not standing with a gun pointed at your head!

mischiefmaker, thanks for your response.

Wolf, therefore you picked option c.

I’m imagining a scenerio and I’m wondering what peoples’ responses would be if such a situation would be real.

Imagine a husband tells a wife,”my dear wife, I want you to strictly follow the halacha that a woman may not go out more than she needs to. Therefore, I want you to stay home and not go out of the house. Don’t worry I’ll take care of all your needs. Whatever you cannot shop through the internet I’ll buy for you.

Also, while I understand that you feel that going to the mall to air out is vital for your mental health, I don’t feel it is.

And because I am your husband you must listen to me.”

How would the posters here discribe the husband:

1. abusive

2. acting within halachic rights and therefore not abusive

3. other

Who defines proper hashkofa?

“i was simply crying (im not sure decrying is the right word), in general, for the depths our generation has fallen. not asking shailas, practicing halacha differently than and not complying with your husband are just some examples. “

missme who’s not asking shaalos? You problably meant to say, the shaaloh that you asked someone to ask.

Praticing halacha differently than what? If you mean being ruled by the husband in all aspects then;

Are you supposed to comply with her husbands wishes if what he says is not the correct thing to do? That’s the only way that one can say a husband rules over her in all aspects.

“HUH?? I NEVER heard of a so-called “minhug” of following their husband’s directive less. where do you hear of such nonexistent so-called ‘minugim’?? it is not right to make up a ‘minhug’ to justify something that is being done wrong. you really need to ask a shaila and not be afraid to hear what you rov will pasken. “

I never said it’s a minhug not to follow whatever your husband tells you even if you feel it’s wrong to do or you have a different opinion. I said that that is how some women today conduct themselves today. The wife’s opinion in a healthy marriage carries weight.

hold on, missme while I call my Rov whether I could walk to my baby’s sitter because I have an apt. and can’t take my baby with me and we have one car which my husband uses during the day so I can’t take the car. Hold on while I ask whether I should take a taxi. Hmm, on the other hand – me alone in a taxi with a strange man, maybe that’s not so tzniusdig. One minute let my ask Rov these complicated shaalos.

Wolf, feif un means to diregard in Yiddish.