philosopher

Chayala, that’s a cute story.

Thats why it should be a shul focused celebration, not a hall celebration.

SJS,Why is a wedding different? There is no need for a hall there either.

There is no need to have a fancy hall celebration for a bar mitzvah and THAT sends the wrong message IMO.

Who said it needs to be a fancy hall celebration?

A600kilobear, those who will marry BT’s and make sure their kids get accepted into frum schools can help people become frum.

There is barely place for children from frum families in these overcrowded schools so only the “best” families are easily accepted. The rest have to beg. Forget it when you are BT! It’s hard for them! I just read a letter in the Yated of how a BT father is crying becasue his children can’t get into schools.

You can’t play with people’s lives. If we are really ready to accept them in terms of totall integration within our families and schools then you have point, otherwise at the rate it’s going it will be a disaster.

Years ago, when a person became frum, they could send their kids to school without a problem. They could marry their kids off, with maybe a little more diffuculty than the regular family, just like any other family with issues, but today with the shidduch scene being what it is, this is even harder.

Only ten, fifteen years ago, when even the secular world beleived in family values, then you knew that a father is a father and a person’s mother is a mother. Can you guarantee that all of those we bring into our communities are not memzerim?

Years ago, if a person said he’s Jewish, he was. Today with so many sham conversions of the Reform and Conservative created a nightmare regarding really knowing who is a Jew untill it is too late.

It is not so simple to go to a college campus or the streets of Manhattan and set up a table and promote Judasim to anyone who claims they are Jewish. One needs to see the outcome of all of this.

I say that for those who are already frum, let’s take care of them. I feel it’s heartless to leave them hanging without freinds or a support system.

The SJS, the FACT is, that boys’ lifestyles change when they turn 13 and the reason for the bar mitzvah celebration is that they should be excited for those changes.

Girls lifestyles do NOT change. It is an INNER change, a change in their penimius and girls do understand that when their upbringing is not focused so much on what each gender gets or doesn’t get. In my community, it is totaly not an issue, and I think in most communities where there is an acceptance of each of our different roles girls don’t even think twice about this.

I’m sorry if I’m being blunt, but thinking in terms of if boys get this then girls have to as well, if boys can do this then girls can as well, leads us down the path of women Rabbas.

Girls and boys are different, the way they come of age is different, what their halachic obligations are is different, and the way we go about these changes is different.

Girls, in communities where boys bar mitzvas are celebrated and not the girls bas mitzvas DO NOT feel less significent nor do they feel their role is of less importance in any way, just because boys have their bar mitzva and the girls don’t have big deal made of their bas mitzvas.

I think kids do clearly know what authority is, if the parent acts with authority in all situations.

A lot of kids have lost that respect to their parents because the parents are afraid of them.

Hitting out of anger and abuse, or without using seichel, can cause kids to hit as well.

Health, I agree with you. Most of these kiruv orginizations leave the fresh BT’s sort of adrift on their own.

Also, I don’t believe we should go fishing for BT’s.

I say we should just concentrate on being good Jews, Jews with emes and derech eretz.

A potch in time saves nine!

A potch only until an appropriate age,

A potch for chutzpah or doing something unsafe.

Then an explaination why that potch you gave,

And with a kiss and hug, your relationship is safe.

I think, as oomis said, a potch can be used until a child can be reasoned with.

Btw, I think there is an halacha that one cannot hit a child over bar mitzvah.

Mod-80, I’m willing to bet you became a baal teshuva quite a number of years ago.

Most brand new baalie teshuvas today really stand out because of a number of reasons.

I think it’s very normal to be insecure in certain areas, especially when we are young and the older we get, IF we work on ourselves, the more secure we become about ourselves.

I think that the most important thing is to have in mind that it doesn’t matter what others think of you, you only need to focus on doing the right things.

So if your freinds talk to you, it’s self destructive to start analyzing why they are talking to you. It’s important to focus on yourself, that YOU should BE a freind.

There’s nothing wrong with being klutzy. But if you are not keeping on tripping every second step you take or dropping objects, then I doubt your are klutzy though. I think your are just feeling like that.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so if you will be confident and appreciate the beauty that you most certainly have, then you are beautiful.

Josh, the point is not about asking the kids what they want. It’s about SHOWING them what’s really important in life. Granted the bar mitzvah is only one night, while camp is for a few weeks. But still, my opinion is that a special celebration (relatively speaking, to each his own) at a time when a boy starts having a chiuv to perform the mitzvos, really shows the kids where our priorities are.

Again, it’s not how much one spends, but one spends where they feel it’s important.

Mod-80 I’m saving up for my son’s Bar Mitzva, so the only thing I can spare you is some change.

2morecents, may I assume you son’s chasunah will resemble his bar mitzva?

One should not assume that just because not marking the occasion worked for one kid it will work for others.

It’s not about fressing or lavish simchos. It’s not about keeping up with the Cohen’s. It’s about showing how important this occasion is for a boy, it’s marking it with simcha. MOST kids, if their parents spend money for other inconsequential things like camp and not on a bar mitzvah celebration, will get not get the simcha and that special feeling of being able to perform all the mitzvos that grownup men do.

I believe one spends where their priorities are. Everything else is lip service.

SJS, Everything in life is petty but we must understand that materialism, if used the right way can have very powerfull effects and just the opposite, if used the wrong way will have negative effects. Let’s face it, 13 year old boys will not appreciate the mitzva to the fullest extent that even adults have trouble appreciating.

I’m not saying an axtravant, money wasting affair will have the right hoshpaoh. That focuses too much on the materialistic part. However, it is vital to show the bar mitzva boys what a special occasion this is.

If you go on vacation and spend money, buy your kids electronic toys etc., is this not fleeting? Even a nice house, while we look at it as it’s lasting, in reality it is not. Time passes by. We don’t live forever bound to our materialism whether it’s a house or car.

The feeling that you put into your kids by marking this occasion to the best of your ability is lasting. You are showing that this is important to you.

Let me ask you, will you make their weddings in shull too? You can make the chuppah outside. Not too many people need to come to the sheva brochos after the wedding, so how about inviting ten couples and doing it in your house? A wedding is certainly fleeting as well.

The bottom line is that no, special occasions don’t need to be big and ostentatious. In fact this downplays the holiness of such occasions as everyone is focused on shtissim. But still, we must try our best to make our simchos “real special occasions” by marking them ACCORDING TO OUR LIFESTYLE (that we can really afford to live – not on credit cards or charity), bar mitzvos included.

When we remodeled our kitchen (I don’t have a big kitchen, but this was a necessity as it was old and nausiating) we were trying to cut costs at every corner. We called our Rov if we really need a milchig stovestop or we can forego it.

My Rov said a gevaldige thing. He said if we put in new cabinets (not custom made, but cheapest of the cheapest)new sinks and new countertops we can spend the extra $250 for a separate milchig stovetop.

Same here. I’m not talking about bas mitzvas. I’m not talking about extra luxuries or extravagant affairs. I am talking about boys marking a major event in their lives, an event that marks their entrance into adulthood and their full responsibilty to follow the Torah laws.

If one doesn’t go on vacations and their entire lifestyle is totally moneypinching in all areas, I can understand them for only sponsoring a kiddush in shul. But if there is money for extracurricular activities (like music lessons,etc.), vacations, a nice house then I would think that only a kiddush in shul shows that one places more importance in other areas of their lives.

Not that I’m saying one should make extravagant affairs. I think a person’s entire lifestyle should be lived how they can afford it and those who live lavishly can’t necessarily afford it. But I think one should make a bar mitzvah (not bas mitzva)in the same bracket as how they live their lives so that the children can see that we are very serious about marking this milestone to the best of our ability.

Do you mean that any solution is better then no solution? That seems destructive.

Doing nothing is the most destructive thing of all. One has a chiuv to protest pritzus or any other sin in a suitable forum. What negative outcomes can happen if one writes in places such as the CR or other non-threatening places, such as writing letters to publications and the like, about the importance of tznius?

I propose the problems isn’t “those evil prutzahs”.

Prutzasdige women are part of the problem. They are not babies. They are adults who make adult decisions and should know better. We will all be held accountable for are deeds, prutzahs included.

I propose we as a society – men and women – need to do some soul searching, and reevaluate our priorities.

That would be the ideal situation, but it will never happen if people will not be aware of the harshness of pritzus.

Or terribly large seforim which have little to do with Halacha, but running on the terrible need to make more and more rules to compensate for the lost feeling of tzinius.

If you are talking about Rabbi Falk’s sefer, then it has much to do about halachas of tznius.

You are right though. It cannot compensate for the lost feelings of tznius. That’s a tragedy in itself.

Has the sledgehammer mehalach ever worked in our generation? EVER? Or has it just made people defensive? Has anyone really done anything because you threaten them?

On this forum, I don’t see anyone threatening anybody. Saying the truth about din v’cheshbon is not threatening. It is saying the truth.

Also, in a lot of schools where tznius is very enforced, the majority of girls do end up being tzniusdig as married women. Learning about tznius and enforcing the rules from when girls are young, create a feeling of tznius in these girls which doesn’t change for most of them, even after marriage.

It is also very important to create a feeling FOR tznius, not just OF tznius, as you are trying to say. But the bottom line is that, yes, using the sledghammer to chisel a beautiful form of a Jewish daughter as opposed to leaving one huge blob of a human is what we are doing our entire lives in chinuch as parents and educators. Certainly we should do that in the area of tznius.

This is not Europe. There is no organized Kehilla. We need to accept these realities, and look inward.

Wow! You brought out a very good point. Maybe that is the problem and that’s why in the Chassidishe communities halachas of tznius are , in the majority of cases, mostly adhered to.