clay kodesh

@DBM your statement

2. “But DBM,” I hear some of you bleating, “are you saying that we mere mortals can trust ourselves not to seek out the forbidden? Don’t Chazal say that we cannot police ourselves in matters of arayos?”

Well, if it’s nose-to-nose with you, yeah. Few, if any, human beings can resist THAT sort of temptation. Notice, however, that Chazal did NOT say that we cannot police ourselves in, say, talking to a woman, walking on the same side of the street or even (gasp!) seating oneself next to a woman on a bus. Do you why? Because WE HAVE THE HUMAN CAPACITY TO SET LIMITS AND BIDE BY THEM.

If you read my original post, you will notice that I mention simply not going online or going online in the presence of my wife as deterrents to visiting improper content. Those are natural–not artificial and pandering–means of self-control.”

End quote

You dont seriously mean to compare having unlimited access to unfiltered internet to walking by women on the street! A better comparison, perhaps, would be to yichud. (Because in both cases you have access without any outside interference or fear of discovery)

yes, we all agree that the internet is a new thing that has no precedent in halacha as “assur”, so there is no easy mishna brura or shulchan aruch to quote.

But i think, with a little intellectual honesty( and some bleating:) we can clearly see how being exposed to the web is within the categories that our chachomim forbade in “stayin away from arayos”, similar to how they forbade looking at pictures or clothing. And how they forbade being alone with a woman, i.e. yichud.

However its not written specifically, so theres nothing to quote.

I didn’t want to start talking like this, but come on. If you’re a man, can u really take seriously someone who says “im pure, im in control, i set boundaries” etc. We’ve been around the block before, we’re all internet users( if not, how are u reading this) we know what goes on when men have unfettered access to inappropriate material! Were not stupid!!

theres a stat by the American Psycological Assosiation that 86% of men would open an inappropriate website,if given the chance. Thats almost 9 out of 10 men. Tell me, are you that 1 or 2 in 10 who wont? Is everyone in this thread the 1 or 2 who wont? Where are the other 9? Who are they? Can we please take our heads out of the sand? We’re not malachim, we’re human!! Deal with it!

Im sure that many times you are in control. But even if you are the 1, as a public standard set by our leaders,theyd have to be literally INSANE to allow everyone in klal yisroel to have unlimited internet, just to protect the rights of the 1 or 2 in ten who will stay pure.

This should all be obvious.

I think we all agree that any self-respecting torah jew should have both self-control and a filter of some kind to help cover all the bases.

And that either one alone is simply not enough.

Again, i dont know if filters are an effective solution for IT people.

To chassidishe gateshead, you are right that for a yid to survive he needs to learn self-control.(especially in america today). Without it, it would not be difficult for him to find whatever inappropriate material he wants, they practically give it away on the street corners and supermarket check-out aisles!

And still,we see there is no chiyuv to “move to a holier place”; plenty of mainstream rabbonim live here. Im sure there is no halachic need for you to leave the netherlands.

But there is a huge difference between all these examples and the internet: the internet is under your direct control, while the street is completely out of your control.

The street is a test given to you by hashem, whether you want to be tested or not, so you gotta learn self control or you’re finished.

But the internet is a nisayon that can be avoided, just by installing a filter( for most ppl, i dont know the specific situation of IT people). A test that is in your control to avoid, the halachah is clear that u must avoid. (Sanhedrin, 107a.)

David, the Torah’s view (and by that I mean the Gemara and rishonim etc.)is that a person should never put himself in a situation where he may fall to the yetzer hora (“the demons within us” as you put it so well. Made me smile:). An example of this is the famous story of Dovid Hamelech and bas sheva. The medrash says that Dovid actually ASKED to be tested by Hashem, so that he could rise to a higher level ( and be mentioned with the avos in shemona esray). As we all know, sadly Dovid fell to the yetzer hora, and many bad things happened as a result. Our sages conclude that the moral here is never to put yourself in a situation where you can fall, rather play it safe, and don’t try anything fancy.

While your opinion is a reasonable one, (Dovid Hamelech had the same idea after all!) it is not the Torah’s opinion, and therefore not the way a Torah Jew is supposed to act.